FDA TVECA post table of contents for Deeming Final Rule

[pennysmalls]

If there are any big companies with direct ties to the real vaping industry who're going along with something like that, to them I say screw you, you won't see a penny from me.

 

[squee]

Has TVECA released any more of the documents? I thought they said they'd be releasing them all within 24-48 hrs, but the PMTA guidelines were all we got

 

[Kat56]

Did I win yet? Hehe

 

[kbeam418]

If there are any big companies with direct ties to the real vaping industry who're going along with something like that, to them I say screw you, you won't see a penny from me.

See that's the trouble, I don't see Evolve or ANY vape companies doing anything. In a way it's the companies fault, the companies should be going to Washington and explain what will happen to the White House,

 

[Kent C]

Arkansas votes:

House 51 yea 16 no

26 R and 25 D voted yea
15 R and 1 D voted no

Senate 26 yea 3 no

15 R and 11 D voted yea
3 R voted no

So yeah, it's the 'Republicans' fault'.

Change 2 Republican votes in the House, and 5 in the Senate, then it's the Democrats' fault.

 

[justagurlinseattle]

Arkansas votes:

House 51 yea 16 no

26 R and 25 D voted yea
15 R and 1 D voted no

Senate 26 yea 3 no

15 R and 11 D voted yea
3 R voted no

So yeah, it's the 'Republicans' fault'.

Change 2 Republican votes in the House, and 5 in the Senate, then it's the Democrats' fault.

OK, so here is the problem..

With the Democrats, they LOVE to control and regulate EVERYTHING.
With the Republicans, they in general follow the money.

That is pretty much a no win.... Though, I bet, that Rand Paul and Bernie Sanders
would be the 2 people MOST OPEN to supporting our cause.

Rand Paul, he is good at hearing people and understanding things like this.
Bernie Sanders, he seems to be a good guy, who really cares about the people

These are the people we need to bombard on Twitter. and I mean tweeting both of them
every hour or less, for the next week... and if a LOT of people did this,
they would have to listen... Letters get lost... Social Media is the way to get
more public attention and get this issue in front of these men, as they actually READ
their tweets.
If enough people tweet Bernie and Rand, every hour, I bet we can get their attention.

 

[Kent C]

"E-Research Foundation was established for this very purpose; ERF provides a unifying collection point for anyone and everyone to be able to contribute to ongoing medical/science research – both now and into the future. Such transparent, and universally open, funding participations can only facilitate the process of educating consumers, vendors, regulators and the public in general."

Other Board Members:
Brandon Ward – Evolv, LLC President Read Bio

Brandon Leidel – VaporShark, CEO (VaporShark is an AEMSA Certified Member) Read Bio
Aaron Frazier – Consumer: Utah Smoke Free Association, Executive Director (unpaid volunteer) Read Bio

 

[Kent C]

With the Republicans, they in general follow the money.

"follow the money" started with Woodward and Bernstein - both Dems. If you mean that Republicans support businesses making money, I'd agree.

Though, I bet, that Rand Paul and Bernie Sanders
would be the 2 people MOST OPEN to supporting our cause.

Unfortunately, there are no public statements by either on ecigarettes/vaping. There are some 'tendencies' where one would suspect support - both support the other unmentionable (at ecf) form of recreation, but so do some of the Dems who write letters to the FDA and OMB to 'hurry up' with the final rule, so that isn't the best guide.

And Paul has made his ideas known about regulation and the FDA specifically - many videos on that, whereas I'm not sure that Sanders would say, abolish the FDA and has on many occasions supported the regulation into our lives and the into businesses.

That said, contacting any of these guys is usually a good idea - although sending emails, tweets to the Dem Senators who wrote the letters is really a waste of time - they've made up their mind and no amount of reason, science, threats to not vote for them, etc, will change that.

 

[justagurlinseattle]

"follow the money" started with Woodward and Bernstein - both Dems. If you mean that Republicans support businesses making money, I'd agree.



Unfortunately, there are no public statements by either on ecigarettes/vaping. There are some 'tendencies' where one would suspect support - both support the other unmentionable (at ecf) form of recreation, but so do some of the Dems who write letters to the FDA and OMB to 'hurry up' with the final rule, so that isn't the best guide.

And Paul has made his ideas known about regulation and the FDA specifically - many videos on that, whereas I'm not sure that Sanders would say, abolish the FDA and has on many occasions supported the regulation into our lives and the into businesses.

That said, contacting any of these guys is usually a good idea - although sending emails, tweets to the Dem Senators who wrote the letters is really a waste of time - they've made up their mind and no amount of reason, science, threats to not vote for them, etc, will change that.

To be honest, you and I most likely reside on total opposite ends politically...
BUT, just so you know, I am NOT the typical Liberal..

Yes, I agree that Rand Paul has mentioned getting rid of the FDA, BUT, that 'is
NEVER going to happen, and with good reason.

I also agree that there have not been any statements on vaping from either one.
However, I think that getting this issue on their radar is a good idea
and COULD possibly be helpful.
and the way to get it on their radar is by bombarding them with tweets on this
issue.

also, maybe tweeting Bill Maher... He tends to be supportive of more Left
Leaning Libertarian issues... He would be a good person to contact.

The biggest problem is that EVERYBODY in politics is "About The Children"
That is when they make the biggest mistakes.. They don't use logic, they
use emotion.

My problem, is that I still don't know much about any of this to be very effective
at getting the word out there. I don't know what to say on this issue, to
get anybody to listen.
If any of you could help me write a short message in 140 characters or less
so I can tweet this to Rand, Bernie and Bill Maher... I would appreciate
it a lot...

 

[Major Meatwad]

Now, that is just scary....


OK, maybe we need to bombard Bernie Sanders Twitter, with this info...
He seems to be a man of the people.... MAYBE he would listen?

Not to endorse any candidates and especially any political party although this is a Political issue at its very core.

The Executive Branch via OMB and OIRA has final say so on Regulations posed by any Government Bureau affecting $144 million/annual commerce. It is called executive order 12866 signed by Clinton in 93.

In the current form, the new proposed FDA regulations do.

That being said, it is up to Obama right now to final rubber stamp it or the new president elect 2016 if the FDA is stalled by asking for changes to do so. Hopefully Obama will reject it.

Ironically there is a Bill called HR 2058 that is being pushed by "CASAA" and is Republican supported that trumps the Executive Branch by amending the FDA section of tobacco regulation directly and is trying to add sections 905 and 910 to the code of FDA tobacco regulations . These sections are the Vape shop and E-juice Related ones that specifically will cause the major trouble to Vaping industry. "https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/2058/text"
"https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/2058/cosponsors" for co-sponsors.

Everyone is being told these are being pushed as the "grandfathering" in of products for 2 years from now but are really only grandfathering 21 months past the Family Smoking Prevention And Tobacco Control Act passing date of June 22 2009 which is around April 2011.

So much spin being pushed right now it is disturbing.

I do not want previous April 2011 products!

I want NO regulation at all on a Federal level in regards to Vaping.

The Free Market is doing an outstanding Job of innovation and safety via Knowledge/feedback like what is on this forum and the Internets.

Please be aware of the top 20 politicians ever backed by "Big Tobacco" have historically been Republican.
So any attempt to help by Republicans with "Vaping" has to be examined microscopically not just cause it "sounds right".

Often in politics advocacy groups turn spin thanks to background money support. Its is the Sad state of politics today that money wins versus what is right for most.
The Golden Rule...
Gold Rules!

That being said: It would be nice to get Bernie Sanders to advocate for the Vaping Industry.

It is a real genuine issue facing almost everyone in the U.S as almost everyone has or knows someone dealing with Tobacco addiction Health concerns.

Tobacco is the issue.

Not Nicotine and Vaping!

Somehow everyone besides vapers are confused as to the difference.

 

[YoursTruli]

IMO it's the states that are going to be delivering the biggest blow...the FDA is just building on what the states have already put in place or are working on putting in place. I think this is truly the hold up with the FDA..they are watching and working with states and giving them time to implement the hardest blows and then the FDA will proceed with their end of things. I truly believe it's a carefully combined effort to come at us from different directions. Everybody is paying so much attention to the FDA when it's the states IMO that everyone should be watching their backs on..but that's just me.

DeAnna, I am so glad you said this. It has been said before. By many posters.

It's called having your attention placed on a target that isn't really the target. And THAT is pretty close to fatal when you are in a war. "hey.......look here!!! here!!! here!!!"



I have said many times that by the time to local/municipal/state/regional regs/bans have passed (and they have passed at an alarming rate) there will be very little left for the FDA to do.

Unfortunately, these things were not properly challenged by the industry in courts of law as it should be.

This.... and it has been said numerous times by numerous posters that while we have been so busy watching and waiting for the FDA hammer to come down on our heads we were being being cut off at the knees by local and now state governments.
I have said from the beginning it's at the local and state levels that the war on vaping is going to be won, divide and concur, as we lose our vaping rights county by county, city by city, state by state.
In watching this over the years it feels like a lot of the vaping community mentality has been -wow it sucks to be you but vaping will survive- when the restrictions/regulations/bans started being enacted at local levels years ago. Now restrictions/regulations/bans are commonplace at local levels and rising to the state levels where we will see more restrictions/regulations and the addition of taxation.
Realistically if it is deemed a tobacco product and banned/regulated/restricted/taxed heavily by your local community/state so you can't vape in public anymore, have severe restrictions on buying and selling all vapor products and are paying high taxes on them how much worse do people feel the federal regulations be for them 2 years down the road from what is already happening right now?

 

[LaraC]

Leaving a few big players makes sense. It just occurred to me,couldn't
they pass the sin taxes with out the expensive regulations?
Regards
Mike

They intend to have their cake and eat it too.

 

[skoony]

They intend to have their cake and eat it too.

Their cake being expanded bureaucracy,control and,power.
Regards
Mike

 

[inspects]

I ordered two bottles of e-juice which claim to be made from non-tobacco derived nicotine. I plan on sending one bottle to an accredited laboratory to determine the exact content and chemical makeup.

If this juice actually proves the product contains non-tobacco derived nicotine, I believe it will be a game changer. When I receive the results of testing, they will be posted.

 

[Kent C]

To be honest, you and I most likely reside on total opposite ends politically...

Let their be no question about that.

BUT, just so you know, I am NOT the typical Liberal

Not enough info yet..... and I don't take liberals' assurances on anything without more information. They have a tendency to say things that are either not true or they say things only what they think people want to hear, but don't subscribe (or live their own lives) to those principles.

Yes, I agree that Rand Paul has mentioned getting rid of the FDA, BUT, that 'is NEVER going to happen, and with good reason.

I never say never and there is really good reasons why it should be abolished or reduced in power. That said, one doesn't have to abolish the FDA to reduce it's intervention into certain areas, including ecigarettes. The only reason they assume they can is by changing the definition ("deeming") of ecigs to cigarettes. Otherwise it would be out of their jurisdiction.

Bill Maher... He tends to be supportive of more Left Leaning Libertarian issues

Some inside info - believe it or don't :- ) Bill Maher made some comments from his first cancelled show about 'being a libertarian'. Reason mag (libertarian publication) did an interview with him and cancelled publishing it because 'there was nothing there'. He knew nothing of libertarianism or much else in their opinion. Being an advocate of free speech and against every other liberty mentioned in the Bill of Rights doesn't make him (or ACLU) a 'civil libertarian' any more than Feinstein having a concealed carry gun makes her a gun rights advocate.

But... if you feel it may do some good to tweet Bill, then go right ahead :- ) I'll pass on that.

 

[Kent C]

I ordered two bottles of e-juice which claim to be made from non-tobacco derived nicotine. I plan on sending one bottle to an accredited laboratory to determine the exact content and chemical makeup.

If this juice actually proves the product contains non-tobacco derived nicotine, I believe it will be a game changer. When I receive the results of testing, they will be posted.

Already (well... soon) something doesn't have to be a nicotine product to be regulated as a nicotine product. There would be nothing stopping the FDA from "deeming" say, eggplant derived nicotine as a tobacco product. The only way to 'change the game' is the change the players in the game.

 

[Katya]

I really don't see much left that the FDA could possibly do to you guys......although I haven't read about your new regs in depth. Just a cursory browse.

Well, I do.

The FDA could take a stand and repeat what Mitch Zeller already stated:

"If we could get all of those people [who can't or won’t quit smoking conventional cigarettes] to completely switch all of their cigarettes to the non-combustible products that would be good for public health."

"It is not the nicotine that kills half of all long-term cigarette smokers. The nicotine creates and sustains the addictions, but it's not the nicotine that kills people."

The FDA could also acknowledge that e-cigarettes are much less harmful (~95%) than traditional cigarettes and have a great potential to help people stop smoking and thus should not be regulated (and taxed) the same way as (combustible) tobacco products. If they must be regulated, they should be regulated in their own category, namely, the tobacco harm reduction category. The FDA should also admit the the February 2007 grandfather date is a mistake and should be moved either to coincide with the date of the Deeming Regulations, or at least to 2011, when the FDA was actually allowed to do the deeming, so to speak. In 2007, FDA didn't recognize e-cigarettes as tobacco products at all and had no right to deem them as such.

Just for starters.

 

[kbeam418]

"E-Research Foundation was established for this very purpose; ERF provides a unifying collection point for anyone and everyone to be able to contribute to ongoing medical/science research – both now and into the future. Such transparent, and universally open, funding participations can only facilitate the process of educating consumers, vendors, regulators and the public in general."

Other Board Members:
Brandon Ward – Evolv, LLC President Read Bio

Brandon Leidel – VaporShark, CEO (VaporShark is an AEMSA Certified Member) Read Bio
Aaron Frazier – Consumer: Utah Smoke Free Association, Executive Director (unpaid volunteer) Read Bio

Good for evolv, I'm talking more about the juice manufacturers.

 

[inspects]

Already (well... soon) something doesn't have to be a nicotine product to be regulated as a nicotine product. There would be nothing stopping the FDA from "deeming" say, eggplant derived nicotine as a tobacco product. The only way to 'change the game' is the change the players in the game.

I don't necessary agree with your post, but that is what forums are for.

 

[squee]

I ordered two bottles of e-juice which claim to be made from non-tobacco derived nicotine.

No, it doesn't claim to be that, it claims to be "tobacco-free". So there's no tobacco alkaloids, etc.. remaining after the distillation process. Which is about like advertising lumber-free maple syrup.

As to the discussion here, I found this bit in that Hill article to be very interesting

While the industry groups are basing plans of attack on what they’ve seen of the final rules so far, experts expect major changes from what was first proposed.

“There will be some surprises in the final rule, things people aren’t anticipating,” said Andrew Perraut of the San Francisco advisory firm Radiant Strategies and former staffer at the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs.

Perraut, who reviewed the proposed rule before leaving office in August 2014, said there is more room for change in this rule than in any other he’s worked on.

“I suspect we’ll see the requirements may very well change because the state of the science is very different,” he said, though he declined to elaborate.

I'm thinking this is a good thing and maybe those TVECA docs released were very old ones. The FDA also said they haven't released any of the current draft docs to any outside people/groups.