FDA TVECA post table of contents for Deeming Final Rule

[roxynoodle]

Or the OUTSIDE.

The OUTSIDE is a Perfect Location for those who would like to Engage in this type of Political "Debate".

I don't go there often . I thought it was a Lounge subforum, but I may be wrong. I generally only discuss politics with like minded people because otherwise even long friendships can be damaged.

However, the next few years may require some of us to consider voting outside our chosen parties due to some issues.

 

[Kent C]

There's nothing good about being religiously devoted to any political ideology.

You should take your own advice. Only ideological liberals look at people who criticize them as only Republicans (and their faults, which I also pointed out - see the bit about McCain, Boehner and McConnell). You're stuck in the false left/right two dimensional scale and can't escape. That's not very 'free thinking'.

The fact is, all I said about the media and their handing of ecigs is true and is proven by nearly every new thread posted in Media/News. And it is no secret - at least at the Federal level where most of the attack is coming - Democrats.

Like I said about - liberals can't let their true plans be known - so instead of arguing the issues - which you can't do when you're hiding what you believe, then the only option is ad hominem attacks on opponents or complaining when anyone points out what they're doing. Those who want to stop debate of politics, when it is actually politics that are driving the issues, are always those who can't handle the truth about it.

 

[Kent C]

Seems like all it does is put a Divide right down the Middle of All Vapers. Not sure how this Helps us get Better Regulations with the FDA?

If people can be see that supporting certain candidates, whether it is the Democrat Senators that write the letters to the FDA and OMB, or the Republicans (and Democrats) at the state level imposing restrictions on vaping, then that's how it may help.

It is because it is in THEIR hands, is why this is a political battle. Without them, no regulation would occur, and we could all go back to the general forum or helping newbies in the New Member forum.

 

[zoiDman]

If people can be see that supporting certain candidates, whether it is the Democrat Senators that write the letters to the FDA and OMB, or the Republicans (and Democrats) at the state level imposing restrictions on vaping, then that's how it may help.

It is because it is in THEIR hands, is why this is a political battle. Without them, no regulation would occur, and we could all go back to the general forum or helping newbies in the New Member forum.

Great. So now we see what May Help Us.

What would be the Best way to Get People Active so it Will Help Us?

 

[Kent C]

Great. So now we see what May Help Us.

What would be the Best way to Get People Active so it Will Help Us?

Identifying the targets are the first step. What one does after that is their choice. I suggest following CASAA's call to actions, and I've done my share of emailing committee/committee chairmen, others who I know are on our side. Asking local vape shops what they're doing and answering questions, giving links they might need. Much of the stuff you've been advocating and doing - thanks!

 

[zoiDman]

Identifying the targets are the first step. What one does after that is their choice. I suggest following CASAA's call to actions, and I've done my share of emailing committee/committee chairmen, others who I know are on our side. Asking local vape shops what they're doing and answering questions, giving links they might need. Much of the stuff you've been advocating and doing - thanks!

I think this Definitely needs to be Taken to the Vape Shops. As well as the Online Retailers.

I think we do a Good Job of getting the word out to ECF Members, but ECF Members make up such a Small Percentage of all Vaper's.

 

[Kent C]

but ECF Members make up such a Small Percentage of all Vaper's.

True, but I think our effect is bigger that most of us think. Much ecig online can point to ECF at some point. Much of the improvements in hardware and eliquids were results of our work here - either directly or indirectly, so those who have never heard of ECF benefit from it in safety and improved quality. Unfortunately, those who have had problems could have prevented many of them by being here.

 

[Stubby]

Does this liberals vs conservative bull.... have to be shoehorned into every thread? Well, at least you forgot to throw some hackneyed play on Obama's name in here, like "Obummer" or some stupid ...., and you did manage to not call liberals "librards", so good on you for that. There's nothing good about being religiously devoted to any political ideology. There are major problems with both liberals and conservatives, and the biggest problem is that these clubs are filled with people who aren't capable of thinking for themselves. But, based on my own observations, conservatives are, by a wide margin, the biggest thread high-jacking offenders. No freethinking individual is going to be converted, so what's the point? We've seen clear examples of the horrendous .... that happens when republicans are in power. As a freethinking individual, I find the Republican Party to be overly concerned with Christian religious values. I'm sorry, but for a while stopping gay weddings was near the top of their lis of priorities. That about says it all. That is a clear example of the Republican Party functioning as the Christian moral police. That is also a clear example of Republicans wasting a lot of ........ed time and resources on stupid .... that doesn't even matter. The democrats are no better with their time wasting bull.... that is the gunrights debate. To be a member of either group means that you have to embrace incorrect nonsense that isn't good for anybody, just because you support the basic tent-pole ideas. The problems in this country are not going to be solved by a democrat or a republican, that's for damned sure.

I agree with most of what you say. There are a few individuals here that essentially use the forum to push their political agenda on every thread they get into. It's unfortunate as it is a big turn off for many people. Endless libertarian rants do nothing and are a big negative to actual getting something done as it turns people away. I would never get into a political discussion with these folks as they are fanatics, and that is a losing game. The only way to win is not to play.

What might be interesting is that I have been around a long time and I doubt if anyone knows what my political views are. I do have them, I simply find it completely unnecessary to bring them into any discussion.

 

[zoiDman]

True, but I think our effect is bigger that most of us think. Much ecig online can point to ECF at some point. Much of the improvements in hardware and eliquids were results of our work here - either directly or indirectly, so those who have never heard of ECF benefit from it in safety and improved quality. Unfortunately, those who have had problems could have prevented many of them by being here.

Sure... Improvements in Hardware can be attributed to the Input/Suggestions of countless ECF Members over the Years.

But I'm talking about Advocacy.

Because the Big Question on Everyone's Mind should be...

"What Exactly are we going to do when the FDA Regulations leave the OIRA?"

 

[Alexander Mundy]

......Endless libertarian rants......

I believe you have your terminology incorrect, unless those looking for less government and more personal freedom are what you are referring to. In that case I can't help or agree since I have been for less government and more personal freedom since the bicentennial and have seen only the opposite. More government is what the core issue is.

Edit....seems I have fallen prey to one of my sig line points. I said "only the opposite" which is an absolute. Should have said "mostly the opposite"

 

[Kent C]

big negative to actual getting something done as it turns people away.

I think the population in the top three forums here have skyrocketed. CASAA's CTA's swell. I don't think there's anything negative about that if more people are getting active. Yeah, some have dropped out - I can name a handful of them.

 

[Kent C]

What Exactly are we going to do when the FDA Regulations leave the OIRA?"

Depends somewhat on the outcome but many aren't waiting and buying nic base at least - it's a no brainer and no downside since they will use it either way - just that it may be less costly now. Many will go to the black market if there's an outright ban - we've discussed that possible outcome here. What we don't really know is how many vendors can afford to go through the application process and if they will. The courts will be the best last resort. Many here will contribute to that cause, including myself. But even that we may have to pick and choose the best case.

If the grandfather date is moved to the final rule, then we should take actions to remove it entirely as it still would stop innovation of the future. If the final result is just minor bans, child proof caps and labeling then we should act to reduce them as well - show the studies that minors will be forced back into smoking, how labeling adds unnecessary expense. Caps - meh... not worth the fight... but still stupid when parents leave the caps off as was the one case of poisoning.

 

[Katya]

If I remember correctly, they are funded by tobacco companies.

From Anja'a post linked earlier: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/f...gulatory-proposal.553847/page-2#post-12926728

"TVECA may speak for consumer interests in the US. May. Once they get their noses out of the (hindquarters) of the EU mercenary bureaucrats.
But, judging from our experience in Europe, don't count on it.

And you do know who the board members are of CORESTA, the "mother association" above TVECA?

BOARD MEMBERS (2012-2014)
Alliance One International (USA)
Borgwaldt KC GmbH (Germany)
British American Tobacco (UK)
China National Tobacco Corporation (China)
Imperial Tobacco Ltd. (UK)
Japan Tobacco Inc. (Japan)
KT&G Corporation (South Korea)
Papierfabrik Wattens GmbH &
Co KG (Austria)
R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Company (USA)
Sodim SAS (France)
Swedish Match North Europe Division (Sweden)
SWM International Inc. (USA)
Universal Leaf Tobacco Company (USA)
University of Kentucky (USA)
source

Just do not count on TVECA speaking in favor of the consumers."

I prefer not to jump to conclusions about TVECA but I respect others concerns. I just sent TVECA an email with a request for a specific timeline on additional releases of "leaked" documents. I also asked them to send these additional documents to ME! No harm in asking.

Stay tuned....



/Hello FDA

Not jumping. Just analyzing TVECA's past and present behavior.... Eyes wide open. The leaks, the "informal conversations" with the FDA, their opposition to mods and to flavorings in e-liquids, attacking other trade associations...

TVECA demonizes mods, claims they aren't e-cigarettes

TVECA press release attacks V2 and SFATA

"Ray Story, the president of TVECA, previously told me that he was going to meet with the FDA and urge the agency to ban Internet sales of e-cigarettes (since his company didn't sell on the Internet), to ban flavored e-cigarettes (since his company didn't sell flavored e-cigarettes) and to ban the sale of e-cigarettes to minors (which would also severely restrict e-cigarette advertising, sponsorships and promotions)."

And then there is this...

http://www.clivebates.com/?p=1872

"Confused e-cigarette trade association supports e-cigarette regulation it opposes."

 

[Stubby]

I believe you have your terminology incorrect, unless those looking for less government and more personal freedom are what you are referring to. In that case I can't help or agree since I have been for less government and more personal freedom since the bicentennial and have seen only the opposite. More government is what the core issue is.

Edit....seems I have fallen prey to one of my sig line points. I said "only the opposite" which is an absolute. Should have said "mostly the opposite"

Okay, so you are for less govment. This is not the place to push your agenda. Take it outside if that is what you want to do.

I think the population in the top three forums here have skyrocketed. CASAA's CTA's swell. I don't think there's anything negative about that if more people are getting active. Yeah, some have dropped out - I can name a handful of them.

You are rationalizing. Besides that the problem with your rants is that what you are pushing is an agenda. Wether it is right or wrong is irrelevant. What is relevant is we have to deal with the reality at hand. Going on endless rants does nothing but turn people off.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

Going on endless rants does nothing but turn people off.

So count me as turned off

 

[Kent C]

You are rationalizing.

In what way? You made a comment that many have left - and I pointed out more are active in these threads.

What is relevant is we have to deal with the reality at hand.

The reality at hand is that most of this is political. I mainly respond to political posts. Here, this thread was all about the leaked copy and whether it's valid and moved to side issues of HR 2058 (a political bill) and someone posted a video of Sen. Markey and a liberal started the political strain that you so abhor. And I responded, just as you have responded to me here.

Much of the politics is inherent in the news stories. ...some in the comments to them regarding them. When some smuggle in politics with "BT" or "BP" comments (you disagree that they're political?) I'll respond. If not, you'll see I don't have much to say.

The fact is, many have had their eyes opened by the deeming and the discussion of it and have stated so, and I think that's a general positive for vaping.

 

[justagurlinseattle]

Does this liberals vs conservative bull.... have to be shoehorned into every thread? Well, at least you forgot to throw some hackneyed play on Obama's name in here, like "Obummer" or some stupid ...., and you did manage to not call liberals "librards", so good on you for that. There's nothing good about being religiously devoted to any political ideology. There are major problems with both liberals and conservatives, and the biggest problem is that these clubs are filled with people who aren't capable of thinking for themselves. But, based on my own observations, conservatives are, by a wide margin, the biggest thread high-jacking offenders. No freethinking individual is going to be converted, so what's the point? We've seen clear examples of the horrendous .... that happens when republicans are in power. As a freethinking individual, I find the Republican Party to be overly concerned with Christian religious values. I'm sorry, but for a while stopping gay weddings was near the top of their lis of priorities. That about says it all. That is a clear example of the Republican Party functioning as the Christian moral police. That is also a clear example of Republicans wasting a lot of ........ed time and resources on stupid .... that doesn't even matter. The democrats are no better with their time wasting bull.... that is the gunrights debate. To be a member of either group means that you have to embrace incorrect nonsense that isn't good for anybody, just because you support the basic tent-pole ideas. The problems in this country are not going to be solved by a democrat or a republican, that's for damned sure.

I will say, you should blame me..
It was my fault, I am the one who mentioned being a liberal and he just replied to that.

So, if anybody should be called on the carpet, it is me.


On a side note , I do agree with a lot of what you said here.

 

[justagurlinseattle]

The problem is... this is political.

I wish it wasn't.. But, it is.. and I am actually upset and embarrassed
that it is my side of the isle who are pushing these bans.
I will point out, that while they are on my side of the isle,
these politicians do NOT represent my views.

We have to be honest about this and start holding the politicians who are doing this, to the
fire.

 

[Kent C]

he just replied to that

My first reply to you was only "" I did reply to your "moral equivalence" post, much later than your 'I'm a liberal" post. My response to another's 'liberals have changed' was an attempt to explain how that happened. The thread was back on track until "collins" replied.

 

[Stubby]

In what way? You made a comment that many have left - and I pointed out more are active in these threads.



The reality at hand is that most of this is political. I mainly respond to political posts. Here, this thread was all about the leaked copy and whether it's valid and moved to side issues of HR 2058 (a political bill) and someone posted a video of Sen. Markey and a liberal started the political strain that you so abhor. And I responded, just as you have responded to me here.

Much of the politics is inherent in the news stories. ...some in the comments to them regarding them. When some smuggle in politics with "BT" or "BP" comments (you disagree that they're political?) I'll respond. If not, you'll see I don't have much to say.

The fact is, many have had their eyes opened by the deeming and the discussion of it and have stated so, and I think that's a general positive for vaping.

That's a good one Kent, now you are just making things up out of thin air. No where did I say many have left, I did said you are turning people off. Off course there is more traffic as the regulations are baring down on us. If you are attributing the uptick to your rants then your ego is well out of hand.

The problem with fanatics like you is that you will never stop. You will continue to go on endless rants. I never had any illusion that you would actually listen to anyone. It is just not in the nature of ideological fanatics.