FDA TVECA post table of contents for Deeming Final Rule

[skoony]

If it Isn't Marketed/Advertised as an e-Cigarette, or Part of an e-Cigarette, or Included in a "Kit" that contains an e-Cigarette or and e-liquid that Contains Nicotine, I don't see how the FDA can Regulate a Non-Nicotine Product.

The can regulate it because they are regulating what you vape not necessarily whats in the liquid.
There's the deadly nicotine. Then there's the other stuff in the juice that contains all sorts of little
nastie's. As simple as this sounds this is how they can,will and,are going to do it.
Indiana has done precisely this.
Bring me up to speed,where did your definition come from and in what context.
Regards
mike

 

[salemgold]

Thanks Salemgold. I already started looking into the DIY section. I was planning on getting nic from Myfreedomsmokes. Any thoughts on their product? I have been slowly cutting back on my nic anyway. And am down to 1.5mg. I am pretty sure I'll be off it at some point in the net few months. So If the ban will not go into effect, I may end up with way more nic left over.

That's why I'm also equally interested in stocking up on tanks and RDAs.

I can't really give an honest opinion on the nic that MFS currently sells. Years ago, it was very strong tasting and I did not like it at all. But, I have read that it has changed since then. I have been well stocked with RTS nic for awhile now and that is what I use and like. Sorry that I could not be of more help.

 

[zoiDman]

The can regulate it because they are regulating what you vape not necessarily whats in the liquid.
There's the deadly nicotine. Then there's the other stuff in the juice that contains all sorts of little
nastie's. As simple as this sounds this is how they can,will and,are going to do it.
Indiana has done precisely this.
Bring me up to speed,where did your definition come from and in what context.
Regards
mike

Once Again. Under what Authority does the FDA have to Regulate Non-Tobacco derived Products if there are not Marketed/Advertised or Included with another Tobacco Product?

We're not going to do the Entire 18650 Battery, Metal Wire, and Cotton Ball thing again are we?

 

[Rossum]

The can regulate it because they are regulating what you vape not necessarily whats in the liquid. There's the deadly nicotine. Then there's the other stuff in the juice that contains all sorts of little nastie's. As simple as this sounds this is how they can,will and,are going to do it. Indiana has done precisely this.

Maybe the courts will slap some sense into these overbearing louts?

 

[salemgold]

I could start a museum now. I even have some blue foam and Lipton tea bags stashed away somewhere. And Leaford's lanyard I used for Taryn spins (and two holes in the wall from escaped cartos). I also have a ziplock bag full of cartomizer condoms--I forgot why we were supposed to save those.



I had a bottle of 100mg/ml that turned a rather alarming shade of pink and tasted vile. I used it as a bug spray in my garden. All natural pest control!

Seriously now. I may be pollyannish, but I'm not an idiot. I have some good nic in my freezer always, and I'll probably be getting more. I do understand what's going on--I'm just not panicking ... yet.

Buwhahahahaha!!! I too have all of the things that you mentioned. may even have some of the V4L prefilled 808 cartos stashed away

 

[zoiDman]

Maybe the courts will slap some sense into these overbearing louts?

I don't think the Courts will even need to be Involved this time around.

Because I think the FDA Clearly Understands (now) where it's Legal Authority Ends.

 

[Rossum]

I don't think the Courts will even need to be Involved this time around.
Because I think the FDA Clearly Understands (now) where it's Legal Authority Ends.

If it understood that, it wouldn't try to regulate something that is Clearly not a Food, a Drug, or a Tobacco product -- i.e. a simple mixture of PG, VG, and food flavorings that contains no nicotine.

 

[zoiDman]

BTW - One of the Purposes of the step that the FDA is in, OMB/OIRA Review, is to Insure that the FDA's proposed Rules and Regs are in Compliance and Accordance with the Legal Authority that Congress has given them.

If there is something where the FDA has Overstepped it vested Authority in a Prosed Rule/Regulation, this is where that Particular Rule/Regulation gets kicked back to the FDA for Amendments or Removal.

 

[zoiDman]

If it understood that, it wouldn't try to regulate something that is Clearly not a Food, a Drug, or a Tobacco product -- i.e. a simple mixture of PG, VG, and food flavorings that contains no nicotine.

Who is Say'n that the FDA Can and or Will?

 

[skoony]

Once Again. Under what Authority does the FDA have to Regulate Non-Tobacco derived Products if there are not Marketed/Advertised or Included with another Tobacco Product?

We're not going to do the Entire 18650 Battery, Metal Wire, and Cotton Ball thing again are we?

They have the authority through the deeming process. Look what Indiana did. Once you put
all the pieces together and put it to your lips to take a vape it doesn't mater what its made of.
Its a tobacco product if its taking the place of a cigarette. One of course could come up with
all sorts of alternate definitions of what one is doing but, that's why the FDA is pushing their
new definition of implied use.
Regards
Mike

 

[skoony]

Who is Say'n that the FDA Can and or Will?

Isn't this what its all about? If not what is the point of this discussion?
Either its child safety caps and warnings or, its the whole nine yards.
Regards
mike

 

[zoiDman]

They have the authority through the deeming process. Look what Indiana did. Once you put
all the pieces together and put it to your lips to take a vape it doesn't mater what its made of.
Its a tobacco product if its taking the place of a cigarette. One of course could come up with
all sorts of alternate definitions of what one is doing but, that's why the FDA is pushing their
new definition of implied use.
Regards
Mike

New Flash Mike. The FDA Isn't running Indiana.

Whereas it makes for Good Debates on Forums to think of the FDA as some Omnipresent Entity with Unlimited Authority over whatever it wants. The Truth is the Only Authority that they have is what was given to them in Laws passed by Congress.

 

[skoony]

New Flash Mike. The FDA Isn't running Indiana.

Whereas it makes for Good Debates on Forums to think of the FDA as some Omnipresent Entity with Unlimited Authority over whatever it wants. The Truth is the Only Authority that they have is what was given to them in Laws passed by Congress.

Who's regulations will the FDA's look more like? Indiana's or yours?
Regards
Mike

 

[zoiDman]

Who's regulations will the FDA's look more like? Indiana's or yours?
Regards
Mike

Too Nice of a Day outside to go Back-n-Forth on all this for the 17th Time.

If you think that the FDA will Regulate products that are Not Derived from Tobacco and that do Not Meet the Criteria(s) mentioned in Post #880, you are Entitled to your Opinion.

Perhaps you should also Consider Stocking up on things like Tweezers and Scissors, because they could be Used to Trim a Wick. And a Wick could be used in an Atomizer. And an Atomizer could be Put on an e-Cigarette. And an e-Cigarette could be Used to Vape Pure Unflavored VG.

So you better Buy some VG also.

 

[Jman8]

They have the authority through the deeming process. Look what Indiana did. Once you put
all the pieces together and put it to your lips to take a vape it doesn't mater what its made of.
Its a tobacco product if its taking the place of a cigarette. One of course could come up with
all sorts of alternate definitions of what one is doing but, that's why the FDA is pushing their
new definition of implied use.
Regards
Mike

This blue part is implied in post #880. Under the "kit" portion. If you understood that what you were obtaining is intended for vaping, then all the parts are subject to regulation. I would think if any business has gear that is intended for vaping, then it would have all other products (not intended for vaping) as plausibly subject to regulations.

Otherwise, alternate definitions of what our gear is used for would be the obvious loophole around the regulations.

But I can see a pharmacy type store or convenient store that sells items that may not currently be intended for vaping (though probably are being used by some vapers) get away with that for awhile. For sure are getting away with it now. But once anyone that is not die-hard pro-vaper learns of what is going on, it would then be subject to regulations. Probably more likely just removed from their shelves if not really all that vital. If any store exists that isn't in business of selling vape related products, but has products that vapers find useful, I would guess none of those products would be subject to regulation. Hence the reason that most of us know there will be work arounds. Inconvenient, but still available.

 

[Rossum]

Who is Say'n that the FDA Can and or Will?

You mean beside our resident eternal optimist, @skoony?

The leaked Guidance Document implies the FDA is headed that way...

 

[skoony]

Too Nice of a Day outside to go Back-n-Forth on all this for the 17th Time.

If you think that the FDA will Regulate products that are Not Derived from Tobacco and that do Not Meet the Criteria(s) mentioned in Post #880, you are Entitled to your Opinion.

Perhaps you should also Consider Stocking up on things like Tweezers and Scissors, because they could be Used to Trim a Wick. And a Wick could be used in an Atomizer. And an Atomizer could be Put on an e-Cigarette. And an e-Cigarette could be Used to Vape Pure Unflavored VG.

So you better Buy some VG also.

I asked before where that definition came from and what context it
was in. I read the original deeming proposal. If the FDA so chooses everything
is up for grabs. To ignore what happened in Indiana would not be prudent
in our speculations concerning what the FDA will or will not do. It's my opinion
that if the FDA so chooses they will regulate un- nic´ed juice. Nicotine is not
the only health issue they are concerned about. If one removed the nicotine
from cigarettes today do you think they would become unregulated?
Regards
Mike

 

[skoony]

This blue part is implied in post #880. Under the "kit" portion. If you understood that what you were obtaining is intended for vaping, then all the parts are subject to regulation. I would think if any business has gear that is intended for vaping, then it would have all other products (not intended for vaping) as plausibly subject to regulations.

Otherwise, alternate definitions of what our gear is used for would be the obvious loophole around the regulations.

But I can see a pharmacy type store or convenient store that sells items that may not currently be intended for vaping (though probably are being used by some vapers) get away with that for awhile. For sure are getting away with it now. But once anyone that is not die-hard pro-vaper learns of what is going on, it would then be subject to regulations. Probably more likely just removed from their shelves if not really all that vital. If any store exists that isn't in business of selling vape related products, but has products that vapers find useful, I would guess none of those products would be subject to regulation. Hence the reason that most of us know there will be work arounds. Inconvenient, but still available.

W e are on the same page then. I have always said they are writing these laws in
Such a way as to account for any possibility.
Regards
Mike

 

[Jman8]

W e are on the same page then. I have always said they are writing these laws in
Such a way as to account for any possibility.
Regards
Mike

I think we are on same page, but also think zoiDman is on similar page. If stores exist that aren't in business of selling vape products, but are selling products that vapers can/do use, then the FDA would have to be extra (special) zealous, or just realize that they managed to make things less convenient. In the information age, word will travel very fast what the workarounds are. And it would take another level of zealotry to curtail all possible workarounds.

FDA is facing a gigantic uphill battle. They have billion dollar industry that will fight them legally, and wage enormous propaganda battle. They have to realize workarounds will exist (I'm sure they know this). And they have to realize black market will exist for all things their regulation manages to remove from the legal market (I'm certain they realize this). So, all that's really left is anti-types who will attempt to shame users forever and a day. Hopefully we don't have those types on our side. But as many threads exist on ECF where fellow vapers shame each other, then just a matter of time/recovery as to who is actually anti and who is willing to remain die-hard loyal vaper and not give inches to adversaries based on 70 year old notions of society is entirely polite to each other.

 

[zoiDman]

You mean beside our resident eternal optimist, @skoony?

The leaked Guidance Document implies the FDA is headed that way...

What I saw, which of course was Unverified, was not so much a Means to Regulate a Product. But a Means to Regulate Marketing and Advertising.