UK had 1st Oil Vaping-Related Death in 2010, US has 17th.

[AttyPops]

I'm ashamed to say this, but I was very critical of the CDC's approach...I truly felt they were lying.

It's OK. It's human. Human don't naturally think in highly disciplined ways, it has to be learned and it's often part of certain career paths. Like, I assume, for epidemiologists. And it's damn hard. I'm certainly no expert either, but having been in data processing, I run across data analysis and also accounting/auditing (like stratified random samples, and such). Also, programming teaches me to make sure I don't assume and to always code an "other, didn't get matched" thing. Like "If a, else b, else c, else throw an exception". So I think about "what wasn't accounted for" cases.

It's human. We generalize, the brain works like that. And particularly OK, since I'm still reasonably confident that there ARE people that are lying to us...like those in congress with an agenda they haven't revealed, and suppress valid input. Which I think is dangerous in a representative democracy. But I digress.

I understand how a generalization from the CDC out of caution can be confused with other deliberate agenda-based generalizations from other agencies/actors that don't make sense.

And who knows, I can't guarantee that the CDC doesn't come into this with some bias, particularly at the admin level. BUT in their case they should be using MATH and statistical analysis methods that are designed to document and protect against bias. Best practices, etc.

And I'm talking out of my .... here, a bit. And I admit that. But these are just my best ASSUMPTIONS.

 

[fiddleshe]

I think behind the scenes the CDC is using science and statistics etc. But I also think its statements to the press are also politically motivated.

 

[LoriP1702]

Thanks, I agree, human nature.

... something else you said sparked a memory of something I'd read a couple of years ago.
I'm going to research to see if I can find more information, but a couple of years ago I had gotten interested in essential oils, for topical use. During research about all the different aspects of that, one constant was the importance of organic botanicals for extracting oils via steam distillation. They said that during the steam distillation process, botanicals become extremely concentrated, as do any pesticides that would be sprayed on them.

Your comment about maybe something was oversprayed, or not washed sparked that memory of what I'd read.
I for sure don't want to speculate, but thought it worth sharing in case someone can add to it.

I'm the first to admit that I'm ill prepared to figure out what happened, but reading the pathology article, then your comment just really has me wondering.

 

[AttyPops]

Yeah. And I'm sure the experts are wondering a lot too.

For me, I'm sorry if I'm coming off as a smart-...., but I guess I just read it differently. And I might be the one that's wrong. If I'm claiming that I try to account for exceptions and possibilities, I have to account for that one too. Best I can do is to try to read it impartially and go from there.

This is all a crap shoot until they can prove it with science. Science doesn't have emotion or (usually) agenda, but it can have bad methods and bias that creeps in. That's why it's peer reviewed and double checked by replication. But in things like this, you don't want to replicate the results, at least in humans.

These guys have a tough job. I suppose in general, so do the doctors trying to treat all this. This is a black-box right now. The article said they're just "throwing steroids at it and hope it works" (paraphrased) along with other support to see if people pull through. That's some scary stuff really. Gotta suck for the patients and the doctors trying to deal with this. But there are situations in medicine that they just can't "fix", they encounter that frequently too. That fact doesn't make it any easier though.

This all sucks from so many levels. But the nic stuff is still better than smoking. Technically I should probably quit vaping or shut up. But I'm still vaping, at least for right now. I'm vaping the same stuff (I think!) that I've been vaping for >9 years, unflavored. I suppose it's possible that a contaminant creeped into what I'm using, but since this situation has all the appearance of a contaminant and that it's largely on the THC/CBD side of vaping, I guess I'm playing the odds a bit. The NRT's are irritating to me (gum/lozenges) or ineffective (patches).

I'm considering not vaping and trying lozenges again. But it drives my stomach nuts. On the plus side, it might help brake he habit part of my addiction, I guess. Hand to mouth inhale/exhale part.

 

[LoriP1702]

Well, research didn't take long for that.
That's really frightening to think people would buy that on the black market.

Seems the various extraction processes shouldn't be done by those that have no idea what they're doing.

 

[Horselady154]

Sorry, I still don't trust them. I experienced their games with Lyme Disease.

 

[LoriP1702]

Yeah. And I'm sure the experts are wondering a lot too.

For me, I'm sorry if I'm coming off as a smart-...., but I guess I just read it differently. And I might be the one that's wrong. If I'm claiming that I try to account for exceptions and possibilities, I have to account for that one too. Best I can do is to try to read it impartially and go from there.

This is all a crap shoot until they can prove it with science. Science doesn't have emotion or (usually) agenda, but it can have bad methods and bias that creeps in. That's why it's peer reviewed and double checked by replication. But in things like this, you don't want to replicate the results, at least in humans.

These guys have a tough job. I suppose in general, so do the doctors trying to treat all this. This is a black-box right now. The article said they're just "throwing steroids at it and hope it works" (paraphrased) along with other support to see if people pull through. That's some scary stuff really. Gotta suck for the patients and the doctors trying to deal with this. But there are situations in medicine that they just can't "fix", they encounter that frequently too. That fact doesn't make it any easier though.

This all sucks from so many levels. But the nic stuff is still better than smoking. Technically I should probably quit vaping or shut up. But I'm still vaping, at least for right now. I'm vaping the same stuff (I think!) that I've been vaping for >9 years, unflavored. I suppose it's possible that a contaminant creeped into what I'm using, but since this situation has all the appearance of a contaminant and that it's largely on the THC/CBD side of vaping, I guess I'm playing the odds a bit. The NRT's are irritating to me (gum/lozenges) or ineffective (patches).

I'm considering not vaping and trying lozenges again. But it drives my stomach nuts. On the plus side, it might help brake he habit part of my addiction, I guess. Hand to mouth inhale/exhale part.

I think it's different from our vaping, people are vaping worldwide and the problem is just here, well and Canada...IF I've kept up with the known locations.

 

[classwife]

I'm ashamed to say this, but I was very critical of the CDC's approach...I truly felt they were lying.

Lies by omission.

I think behind the scenes the CDC is using science and statistics etc. But I also think its statements to the press are also politically motivated.

I agree

Sorry, I still don't trust them. I experienced their games with Lyme Disease.

I don't trust them either.
People are dying.

At the very BEGINNING they should have been forthright about what it appeared to be coming from.
People are dying.

 

[brad-man]

Yeah. And I'm sure the experts are wondering a lot too.

For me, I'm sorry if I'm coming off as a smart-...., but I guess I just read it differently. And I might be the one that's wrong. If I'm claiming that I try to account for exceptions and possibilities, I have to account for that one too. Best I can do is to try to read it impartially and go from there.

This is all a crap shoot until they can prove it with science. Science doesn't have emotion or (usually) agenda, but it can have bad methods and bias that creeps in. That's why it's peer reviewed and double checked by replication. But in things like this, you don't want to replicate the results, at least in humans.

These guys have a tough job. I suppose in general, so do the doctors trying to treat all this. This is a black-box right now. The article said they're just "throwing steroids at it and hope it works" (paraphrased) along with other support to see if people pull through. That's some scary stuff really. Gotta suck for the patients and the doctors trying to deal with this. But there are situations in medicine that they just can't "fix", they encounter that frequently too. That fact doesn't make it any easier though.

This all sucks from so many levels. But the nic stuff is still better than smoking. Technically I should probably quit vaping or shut up. But I'm still vaping, at least for right now. I'm vaping the same stuff (I think!) that I've been vaping for >9 years, unflavored. I suppose it's possible that a contaminant creeped into what I'm using, but since this situation has all the appearance of a contaminant and that it's largely on the THC/CBD side of vaping, I guess I'm playing the odds a bit. The NRT's are irritating to me (gum/lozenges) or ineffective (patches).

I'm considering not vaping and trying lozenges again. But it drives my stomach nuts. On the plus side, it might help brake he habit part of my addiction, I guess. Hand to mouth inhale/exhale part.

Let's hope this isn't the new black market vaping song...



***Video Removed - Good Grief...soooo not appropriate and against the rules !

 

[LoriP1702]

Atty, I'm not saying that vaping is totally safe, I'm with you, for me it's still better than smoking, and I can't do the lozenges either, for the same reason.

 

[AttyPops]

I think it's different from our vaping, people are vaping worldwide and the problem is just here, well and Canada...IF I've kept up with the known locations.

Yeah, but cannabis isn't "just here" either.

So it's some ingredient in the local supply chain. Sounds like. But the high correlation to THC/CBD and street-sources is interesting. Then again, in another thread, someone just posted stats about the high % of the younger vaping crowd that is using that 'side' of the vaping delivery mechanism. Article was by Dr. Siegel.

Deeming Regulations have been released!!!! - post link

 

[classwife]

Let's hope this isn't the new black market vaping song...



***Video Removed - Good Grief...soooo not appropriate and against the rules !

I removed that video.
Seriously ?

Wowzer.

 

[LoriP1702]

I'd be extremely curious to know if those who manufactured the cartridges are among the sick or deceased.
You would think that they would have tried the product they sold.

 

[AttyPops]

I'd be extremely curious to know if those who manufactured the cartridges are among the sick or deceased.
You would think that they would have tried the product they sold.

Good point! That's good analytical thinking. How cut it was....IDK.

Also, to be clear, I'm not saying the CDC is perfect. I'm sure they'll review their processes and do a "lessons learned" and maybe process improvement.

It's OK for us citizens to be critical in a positive way, I think. I mean they work for us on our dime to do what is necessary for a large society in a modern way. But no process is perfect, and it can often be improved.

 

[fiddleshe]

Here's the thing. The police confiscated tens of thousands of carts from the Wisconsin brothers when they raided their place so it would seem they have sold at least that many. Why so few sick?

 

[AttyPops]

Here's the thing. The police confiscated tens of thousands of carts from the Wisconsin brothers when they raided their place so it would seem they have sold at least that many. Why so few sick?

Just off the top of my head, to answer that we'd need to know:
A) Are they the only (or even a) confirmed source of "the problem(s)"? Could be many others too.
B) How many carts does a person have to use, and in what time frame?
C) Maybe the contaminant is new for them, but the previous production runs didn't have it.
D) How many did they produce prior to being busted, are they relatively "new" but made a lot and got busted before most hit the streets?
E) Not all carts are the same at street level, maybe. Others cut it later? Other dealers?
F) Not all symptoms in the patients are the same.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

It gets complicated fast.

 

[LoriP1702]

Good point! That's good analytical thinking. How cut it was....IDK.

Also, to be clear, I'm not saying the CDC is perfect. I'm sure they'll review their processes and do a "lessons learned" and maybe process improvement.

It's OK for us citizens to be critical in a positive way, I think. I mean they work for us on our dime to do what is necessary for a large society in a modern way. But no process is perfect, and it can often be improved.

I had a little bit of medical training, about 25 years ago.
National Registry EMT basic.
I got a toe wet in the medical world. LoL
So yeah, I was critical because I thought... don't tell me they don't have the pathology.... well, it didn't occur to me that they couldn't pinpoint what they were looking at, so I assumed they were lying.

I don't think anyone will stick their name on results until they can scientifically establish patterns.
I think the last sentence of the pathology article stated that they couldn't.

 

[brad-man]

I removed that video.
Seriously ?

Wowzer.

I admit the language was a little coarse, but I didn't think it was too inappropriate. It's really a good song though, and brings home the possible results of the bad habit of vaping black market THC or CBD juice. Just my version of scared straight

 

[fiddleshe]

Just off the top of my head, to answer that we'd need to know:
A) Are they the only (or even a) confirmed source of "the problem(s)"? Could be many others too.
B) How many carts does a person have to use, and in what time frame?
C) Maybe the contaminant is new for them, but the previous production runs didn't have it.
D) How many did they produce prior to being busted, are they relatively "new" but made a lot and got busted before most hit the streets?
E) Not all carts are the same at street level, maybe. Others cut it later? Other dealers?
F) Not all symptoms in the patients are the same.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

It gets complicated fast.

The point is multiples of thousands of these Im sure have been released all over the country from probably multiple sources and only 800 sick. Relatively low numbers imho. Why?

 

[AttyPops]

The point is multiples of thousands of these Im sure have been released all over the country from probably multiple sources and only 800 sick. Relatively low numbers imho. Why?

OK, fair enough.

IDK. Good question.