Thanks for researching this skoony. Tragic story! My concern lies in the fact that the article says "liquid nicotine" and then the author immediately references e liquid and/or e cigarettes. Because of my vaping experience, "liquid nicotine" to me means concentrated nic or pure nic not e liquid. I don't think that the general public or legislators would make that distinction. We don't know yet what exactly caused the child's death other than nicotine poisoning. I know e liquid is dangerous. But, I don't know how dangerous it is. There in lies the problem. How dangerous is e liquid? How many ml ingested would be considered life threatening? different strengths? I think it be to our advantage to find these things out. I also think it would be a good idea to have some larger vaping organization try to educate the general public about the difference between e liquid and concentrated nicotine liquid. I'm not against reasonable legislation and safeguards. However, I would like to see someone get "in front of" any misconceptions about vaping, for our own good.
Update:ny child dies of nicotine poisoning.
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as i recall the chief was very precise in his statement he emphatically said liquid nicotine
and would not elaborate when asked.
regards
mike
Here are some organizations you should consider joining and/or supporting...
CASAA - The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association
Become a CASAA Member
SFATA | Vapor Products Association
SFATA | Electronic Cigarette Association Membership Application
We Are The Vaping Militia
Become A Militia Member | The Vaping Militia
The American Vaping Association
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Many thanks to Skoony for trying to track down the dead child's autopsy report (and find out if one was ever performed).
Unless/until an autopsy report states that ingestion of nicotine caused the death, everyone should remain skeptical about claims made by the news media.
The autopsy also should indicate the level of plasma cotinine (a nicotine biomarker) found in the child's blood.
Never heard about the autopsy that was supposed to have been done on an Israeli child who the news media similarly claimed was poisoned by drinking e-liquid a year ago.
Even toddlers should be able to taste the awful bitterness of e-liquid. While its plausible, I don't know how anyone could drink a bottle (or even a gulp) of e-liquid without immediately vomiting (which is still the most effective poison prevention system, as vomiting has prevented millions of human diseases, disabilities and deaths over the centuries).
Also, please note that the overwhelming majority of childhood poisonings and childhood poisoning deaths are caused by children swallowing drugs and other products that have child resistant caps and/or packaging. So child resistant packaging isn't a panacea, and can give parents and the public a false sense of security.
Also please note that the counties Skoony mentioned are mostly rural counties in upstate NY.
Here in PA, many rural counties don't even have a doctor or coroner who lives in the county. And many/most rural coroners lack the knowledge, equipment, lab access and funds to conduct comprehensive autopsies.
When my father mysteriously died in 1980 while visiting a rural PA county, no autopsy was performed and the county doctor/coroner just wrote "heart attack" on his death certificate. Since then, we've found evidence indicating that my father's death was caused by a pulmonary embolism due to a blood clot (as I nearly died from a pulmonary embolism due to a blood clot in 2002, and subsequent tests found it was caused by a genetic mutation I inherited from my father). My father's sister also mysteriously died many decades ago (with similar symptoms) and my cousin had multiple miscarriages caused by the same genetic mutation.
Unless/until an autopsy report states that ingestion of nicotine caused the death, everyone should remain skeptical about claims made by the news media.
The autopsy also should indicate the level of plasma cotinine (a nicotine biomarker) found in the child's blood.
Never heard about the autopsy that was supposed to have been done on an Israeli child who the news media similarly claimed was poisoned by drinking e-liquid a year ago.
Even toddlers should be able to taste the awful bitterness of e-liquid. While its plausible, I don't know how anyone could drink a bottle (or even a gulp) of e-liquid without immediately vomiting (which is still the most effective poison prevention system, as vomiting has prevented millions of human diseases, disabilities and deaths over the centuries).
Also, please note that the overwhelming majority of childhood poisonings and childhood poisoning deaths are caused by children swallowing drugs and other products that have child resistant caps and/or packaging. So child resistant packaging isn't a panacea, and can give parents and the public a false sense of security.
Also please note that the counties Skoony mentioned are mostly rural counties in upstate NY.
Here in PA, many rural counties don't even have a doctor or coroner who lives in the county. And many/most rural coroners lack the knowledge, equipment, lab access and funds to conduct comprehensive autopsies.
When my father mysteriously died in 1980 while visiting a rural PA county, no autopsy was performed and the county doctor/coroner just wrote "heart attack" on his death certificate. Since then, we've found evidence indicating that my father's death was caused by a pulmonary embolism due to a blood clot (as I nearly died from a pulmonary embolism due to a blood clot in 2002, and subsequent tests found it was caused by a genetic mutation I inherited from my father). My father's sister also mysteriously died many decades ago (with similar symptoms) and my cousin had multiple miscarriages caused by the same genetic mutation.
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I wrote an email to a consumer something or other web site that claimed nicotine poisoning. I challenged them to provide evidence. They wrote back that "state and federal authorities" agreed it was nicotine poisoning so I wrote back and asked for contact information for any of those state or federal authorities and there was no response.
Skoony's description of his effort to get something official about the cause of death is starting sound like ye olde run around. I hope Skoony persists because so far the nic poisoning claim is still only hearsay.
One of the posible explanations, if there is a run around, is that the tests needed to confirm police suspicions were not done.
Skoony's description of his effort to get something official about the cause of death is starting sound like ye olde run around. I hope Skoony persists because so far the nic poisoning claim is still only hearsay.
One of the posible explanations, if there is a run around, is that the tests needed to confirm police suspicions were not done.
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thanks for your info.
from what i can gather the office of coroner is a elected position and doesn't
require a Doctors degree,at least in out state New York.
in out state counties they are divided into zones,each one having generally
there own coroner. of course any county coroner can cover another zone in that county
as situations require.
most if not all coroners are also affiliated with funeral homes in rural New York,
of course depending on the county,a lot of coroners seem to be related by
name.(family business? )
regards
mike
The same as in Ga. Its an elected position. After the person runs and wins he goes to coroner school. Right now Whe have 2. The head is actually a career paramedic for 20+ years so he knows what he's doing, his deputy is a play right at our college play association LOL!
I know here in Ga, any child/infant death is a mandatory autopsy no matter what the coroner thinks. Dont know of its like that everywhere else but it should be!
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Our county coroner was elected and worked at a funeral home around the corner from my house before that.
You're from Indiana, so you remember the coroner misidentifying the teen age girls killed in the car accident... That was ugly..
Does NY have a freedom of information law? The death certificate and corner's report should be public information and no need to invoke FOI but at this point it is appropriate to make requests in writing and cite FOI. It may be that an emailed FOI is valid. It might also be that the county clerk would be the keeper of those records but somebody at the county building could tell you.
I don't understand how one's curiosity would trump the privacy of a dead baby and his parents...
because your birth and death are not generally private information.
government by its own law is required to note births and deaths
in the course of their official duties. these records are public domain
except under prescribed conditions.(court order,etc.. )
the parents have come forward as i have seen in news reports.
the child's name might be redacted because of age i suppose but that
is also publicly known now.
the point is citizens have a right to know what happened. how it happened and,
why it happened in order to determine if it was an accident or criminal.
secondly to determine what actions are prudent and necessary to prevent
such incidents in the future.
lastly considering the forthcoming FDA regulations concerning us vapers
its vitally important we understand all the facts involved to prevent this
incident from being used against us.
i do regret the tragic loss of like. at the same time as a practical mater
i believe all the facts should be laid out on the table.
regards
mike
i believe so. the chief mentioned as much when i asked
about obtaining their official report when it was finished.
i got the impression that was the only way he would release
it,at least to me. i get the impression they think we are a
bunch of busy bodies from out of state.
regards
mike
Thanks again for doing the research and keeping us updated.
I'm feeling like a horrible person right now because the story of Ronald Clark O'Bryan keeps flitting through my head every time this story comes up, then there was that guy that intentionally locked his baby in a hot car to die just last year. I've been around enough toddlers to know that they will spit anything out if it tastes even remotely wrong to them. Part of me hopes this is just a tragic accident and will serve to remind all of us to stress safety and attention when small children are present.
If the FOI law is invoked it is better for the public officials to do something their bosses or community might rather they didn't. Obviously the case is senstive. He is giving good advice for all concerned. I hope you follow through.
On a completely unrelated matter, the owner of my local vape shop believes he starts 5-10 newbies per day and 75% become non smokers. His business is growing fast. He might convert 2000 smokers this year. I read an estimate there are 7000 speciality vape shops. If 5000 of them did as well as the shop near me, which is nothing special, that would add up to 10 million people. That number seems too high but that begs the quesation, what is the number? It could be estimated with a fair degree of accuracy. I believe that number would be the most powerful argument we have in our favor and might move the conversation from obseessing on the well being of poeple who don't smoke to the well being of the people who do.
This is interesting... This section "(3) Nicotine.--The term ``nicotine'' means any form of the
chemical nicotine, including any salt or complex, regardless of
whether the chemical is naturally or synthetically derived."
includes NIACIN (otherwise know as vitamin B3 and nicotinic acid). As written, this would affect tens of thousands of products.
Also interesting is this bit:
" (B) is used to hold liquid containing nicotine in
any concentration."
Which technically includes 0(zero)mg/ml and encompass liquids such as tomato juice and canned potatoes or eggplant.
They really don't think these knee-jerk things through at all, not even for a sanity check?
I feel for the child and their family, I don't know what I'd do if I lost any of mine. I really hope that the details get released. I agree with child "resistant" caps and use them by choice, and they should come standard (with the option to "unproof" it, like the pill bottles), but the last thing the rest of us (idiots?) need is more regulation and mis-information getting in the way of us saving our own lives.
chemical nicotine, including any salt or complex, regardless of
whether the chemical is naturally or synthetically derived."
includes NIACIN (otherwise know as vitamin B3 and nicotinic acid). As written, this would affect tens of thousands of products.
Also interesting is this bit:
" (B) is used to hold liquid containing nicotine in
any concentration."
Which technically includes 0(zero)mg/ml and encompass liquids such as tomato juice and canned potatoes or eggplant.
They really don't think these knee-jerk things through at all, not even for a sanity check?
I feel for the child and their family, I don't know what I'd do if I lost any of mine. I really hope that the details get released. I agree with child "resistant" caps and use them by choice, and they should come standard (with the option to "unproof" it, like the pill bottles), but the last thing the rest of us (idiots?) need is more regulation and mis-information getting in the way of us saving our own lives.
Much sympathy, this is a difficult issue.
However, I know someone who has designed a cap which should be easy for you to open yet hard for a child (complexity, rather than mechanical properties - once you learn it, it's easy). This person is having it tested soon and then it will be available to all suppliers. I'm hoping people use it.
However, I know someone who has designed a cap which should be easy for you to open yet hard for a child (complexity, rather than mechanical properties - once you learn it, it's easy). This person is having it tested soon and then it will be available to all suppliers. I'm hoping people use it.
Again, there is no indication that the bottle had a cap on when the child grabbed it. No type of cap could prevent that. Parents/partners could, though.
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