Vapping banned at work, but the ignorant statements...

[Jman8]

I'm starting to see where you are going with this.

The majority of the Black Market you are referring to is Smuggling from One State with a Lower State Tax to Another with a Higher State Tax on tobacco.

Exactly. A black market for a legal product means smuggling will occur within the same country. And will generally be very profitable for those smugglers. It would be interesting to know what manufacturers really think about such a market, especially with smokes. I'm sure on the surface, they are against it. But, I can't think of a bigger middle finger to the government than allowing that sort of market to flourish, and given the crap that BT has had to deal with from government, I'm thinking some inside BT couldn't be happier.

Also, keep in mind that it wouldn't take smugglers to make it work, but that smugglers are there to make it widespread and more easily accessible for dealers (legal, or otherwise). But any individual can go from state that has heavy taxation to state that doesn't, and get stocked up for awhile.

Cigarette Smuggling Increase Prompts Crackdown by States - Bloomberg

Looking at it that way, I would have to Agree that this type of State to State Black Market would be Much Harder to Combat.

To me, a kicker to all this is that Big Crime could theoretically be pushing for harsh regulations against vaping right now. Kinda hoping for bans (on product) to occur. While also knowing that under a ban, they would stand to gain the most.

For some people, the answer to proliferation of smokes on a black market is to simply revisit the law and make them illegal. Which would only appease the black market. The obvious solution is to lower taxes, but I think we all realize that is unlikely, so government has co-created cartels that aren't BT, and yet, which greatly benefit BT. IMO, it is the epitome of 'government greed.' Could've arguably made more money, and had far greater control, if taxation were kept to a minimum. Instead, that desire to demonize and then heavily tax was seemingly so great, they though they had BT by the neck. Turns out, the government is up to their neck in it (or something that rhymes with "it") and literally has no easy way out at this point, even while the obvious answer stares them right in the face. And yet, ignoring or underplaying any existence of a black market, while sales revenues are seen as declining means 'more taxation' is necessary. And well, you just make cartels very very happy.

 

[Jman8]

Absolutely. I make my own ejuice and most mixes end up costing about $1.25/50mL, and that factors in the shipping cost for the raw materials. Even my most complex mix which takes 7 flavors+sweetner comes out under $2/50mL. When people pay $20 for a teeny 30mL bottle that's likely a 800%+ markup.

I'm a Big Believer in Free Markets. And think there is Nothing Wrong with a Company Making Profits. It is the Engine that Drives Capitalism.

But when I look at how Much It Cost me to DIY my e-Liquids, I can't Ever Imagine buying Pre-Made e-Liquids again.

As one who doesn't currently DIY, I'm wondering if the liquid nic part of the equation is really cheap? From what you two are saying, it sounds ridiculously cheap. Less than $1 for 50ml? With that being the case, the black market would do very very well under a heavy taxation scenario.

 

[GinnyTx]

I can see it now, I get a text, then three knocks on my ejuice dealer's door, me jonesing for some Mother's Milk, handshake with the money..*lol*

Even at MD Anderson Cancer Center there's been a ban since the 90s there's always some cubby somewhere inside and out where smokers go (I know I worked there and would take my patient's out to smoke, some would put the electronic larynx up to their throats and say "Ginnnnnahhhhhy taaaakkkkeeeee meeeee out to smooooooke" *lol* and I would..

that ban sucks, I also found where someone is giving you the "eye" about the vaping, if I just exhale it through my nose for some reason they go on about their business...it's a culture clash, and the information is new.

but honestly I didn't let not smoking policies stop me when I smoked..I won't when I vape too, and no smoke detector in a bathroom stall can go off to my vape *lol*

 

[islandgirl305]

I don't see why a business would not let you Vape - at least you don't smell like an ashtray while you talk to customers - or need smoke breaks that take you from your desk - and vapor smells great if you are doing flavors and not just tobacco flavor

 

[CMD-Ky]

And if those water drinkers are not yet dead, they will be. Avoid DHMO, it's a killer.

Hopefully the bolding part helps you with understanding what I'm basing my responses on.

I think "direct result of smoking" hasn't really been studied since this sort of data has been promulgated to the masses. And if it were, and all other factors were put in proper perspective, then it would be heavy abuse that would be criteria for "direct result" of smoking.

With the data as it is now determined, once vapers start dying and surveys are done, it will be shown that those "current smokers" will be at lots of risk for a whole lot of ailments. Probably could do the same thing with "water" going with this sort of methodology.

All people surveyed, that had drank at least 3 cups of water in their life, have all died.

Well, according to 'science.'

 

[AndriaD]

I'm starting to see where you are going with this.

The majority of the Black Market you are referring to is Smuggling from One State with a Lower State Tax to Another with a Higher State Tax on Tobacco.

Looking at it that way, I would have to Agree that this type of State to State Black Market would be Much Harder to Combat.

Very difficult indeed. We used to have a family friend who travelled to NC on business every week, flying his own plane; he came home with an entire suitcase filled with cartons of cigarettes on every trip. He wasn't truly "selling" them, just picking them up for friends and family members who had already given him the money to purchase them while in NC, because they were so much cheaper. Obviously it was quite a while ago, to make that many cartons of cigarettes necessary! Back then, nearly everyone smoked.

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

I'm a Big Believer in Free Markets. And think there is Nothing Wrong with a Company Making Profits. It is the Engine that Drives Capitalism.

But when I look at how Much It Cost me to DIY my e-Liquids, I can't Ever Imagine buying Pre-Made e-Liquids again.

I wish I could get the knack of it, without having to make so much crap-tasting stuff while I'm learning. I'm a really good cook! But I can't seem to get the trick of making ejuice; everything I've made so far has tasted awful.

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

Exactly. A black market for a legal product means smuggling will occur within the same country. And will generally be very profitable for those smugglers. It would be interesting to know what manufacturers really think about such a market, especially with smokes. I'm sure on the surface, they are against it. But, I can't think of a bigger middle finger to the government than allowing that sort of market to flourish, and given the crap that BT has had to deal with from government, I'm thinking some inside BT couldn't be happier.

Also, keep in mind that it wouldn't take smugglers to make it work, but that smugglers are there to make it widespread and more easily accessible for dealers (legal, or otherwise). But any individual can go from state that has heavy taxation to state that doesn't, and get stocked up for awhile.



To me, a kicker to all this is that Big Crime could theoretically be pushing for harsh regulations against vaping right now. Kinda hoping for bans (on product) to occur. While also knowing that under a ban, they would stand to gain the most.

For some people, the answer to proliferation of smokes on a black market is to simply revisit the law and make them illegal. Which would only appease the black market. The obvious solution is to lower taxes, but I think we all realize that is unlikely, so government has co-created cartels that aren't BT, and yet, which greatly benefit BT. IMO, it is the epitome of 'government greed.' Could've arguably made more money, and had far greater control, if taxation were kept to a minimum. Instead, that desire to demonize and then heavily tax was seemingly so great, they though they had BT by the neck. Turns out, the government is up to their neck in it (or something that rhymes with "it") and literally has no easy way out at this point, even while the obvious answer stares them right in the face. And yet, ignoring or underplaying any existence of a black market, while sales revenues are seen as declining means 'more taxation' is necessary. And well, you just make cartels very very happy.

I'm coming to believe that the only reason anyone goes into working for the gov't is because they're FAR too stupid to get any other kind of job -- even at McD's, you have to know how to follow directions.

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

I can see it now, I get a text, then three knocks on my ejuice dealer's door, me jonesing for some Mother's Milk, handshake with the money..*lol*

Even at MD Anderson Cancer Center there's been a ban since the 90s there's always some cubby somewhere inside and out where smokers go (I know I worked there and would take my patient's out to smoke, some would put the electronic larynx up to their throats and say "Ginnnnnahhhhhy taaaakkkkeeeee meeeee out to smooooooke" *lol* and I would..

that ban sucks, I also found where someone is giving you the "eye" about the vaping, if I just exhale it through my nose for some reason they go on about their business...it's a culture clash, and the information is new.

but honestly I didn't let not smoking policies stop me when I smoked..I won't when I vape too, and no smoke detector in a bathroom stall can go off to my vape *lol*

You know, the more posts of yours I read, the more I like you!

Attagirl!


Andria

 

[zoiDman]

So here's a Question for when the Regs are in place.

Are FDA Approved e-Liquids going to be Allowed to be sold Everywhere that Cigarettes are sold Now?

 

[AndriaD]

So here's a Question for when the Regs are in place.

Are FDA Approved e-Liquids going to be Allowed to be sold Everywhere that Cigarettes are sold Now?

Well, if They just flat-out INSIST on e-cigs being "tobacco products" then I'm not sure how They can avoid it. We all know cigarettes are, at worst, deadly, and *at best*, very bad for you, your unborn child, and everyone who catches 3 molecules of tobacco smoke in their nose. What do they *know* about e-cigs? They've admitted themselves, they *just don't know* -- but if they're tobacco products, hey, line 'em up with the winstons and salems.

Andria

 

[zoiDman]

Well, if They just flat-out INSIST on e-cigs being "tobacco products" then I'm not sure how They can avoid it. We all know cigarettes are, at worst, deadly, and *at best*, very bad for you, your unborn child, and everyone who catches 3 molecules of tobacco smoke in their nose. What do they *know* about e-cigs? They've admitted themselves, they *just don't know* -- but if they're tobacco products, hey, line 'em up with the winstons and salems.

Andria

Not sure.

e-Liquids are Kinda a Whole New Ball Game.

 

[AndriaD]

Not sure.

e-Liquids are Kinda a Whole New Ball Game.

True, but that strikes me very forcibly as one of those catch-22 situations -- they jump thru all these hoops to convince themselves that e-cigs are "tobacco products," and begin to believe it, and declare them such -- then they try to prevent them being sold alongside cigarettes? Some lawyers are gonna get FAT AND HAPPY over that, bet your bottom dollar! I see lawsuits for MILES!!!

At which point the FDA might wish to say "oops." But maybe it's too late for that, at the point that lawsuits have been filed.

Or, maybe they're taking such a scenario under advisement *right now* and might be intelligent enough to figure out that if they declare them tobacco products, they've cut off their noses to spite their silly egg-smeared faces.

Andria

 

[zoiDman]

True, but that strikes me very forcibly as one of those catch-22 situations -- they jump thru all these hoops to convince themselves that e-cigs are "tobacco products," and begin to believe it, and declare them such -- then they try to prevent them being sold alongside cigarettes? Some lawyers are gonna get FAT AND HAPPY over that, bet your bottom dollar! I see lawsuits for MILES!!!

At which point the FDA might wish to say "oops." But maybe it's too late for that, at the point that lawsuits have been filed.

Or, maybe they're taking such a scenario under advisement *right now* and might be intelligent enough to figure out that if they declare them tobacco products, they've cut off their noses to spite their silly egg-smeared faces.

Andria

There will be No Oops. e-Liquids Are Tobacco Products when it comes to the FDA.

The Question though that Comes to my Mind is How Will the FDA Regulate the Entire e-Cigarette Market?

It seemed to me that the Public Comment Period was kinda a Joke. In that, the FDA Really didn't give the Public much to Comment On.

I read 1,000's of Posts about Hardware and SE Compliance. But Very Few on e-Liquids themselves. Because the FDA has Said Very Little about e-Liquids.

And the Sale of e-Liquids seems to be a Key Point.

 

[AndriaD]

But here's the thing -- aside from the consumer, who does it hurt the most if e-cigs are "tobacco products"? BT, that's who -- because they'll have to pony up to the states for every [vape-thing] sold. So the gov't tries to keep e-cigs, e-juice, from being sold alongside BT's *other* product(s)? -- guess who's got big money for every lawsuit you can shake a stick at? It sure ain't the consumers!

If they declare vape-stuff "tobacco products" and then try to stop their being sold alongside cigarettes, BT will have the gov't tied up hand and foot in lawsuits -- as expensive as BT can possibly make them -- for DECADES if necessary -- and does our gov't have money for that? REALLY? If they're so damn rich, why are they trying so hard to make every possible cent from our new technology?

The reason why BT doesn't really mind about the "master settlement" payments is because they've got TONS of money, and just keep making more -- and they'll use that mint to make sure the gov't keeps a level playing field -- if e-cigs are tobacco products that BT has to pony up for. Just watch.

Andria

 

[zoiDman]

But here's the thing -- aside from the consumer, who does it hurt the most if e-cigs are "tobacco products"? BT, that's who -- because they'll have to pony up to the states for every [vape-thing] sold. So the gov't tries to keep e-cigs, e-juice, from being sold alongside BT's *other* product(s)? -- guess who's got big money for every lawsuit you can shake a stick at? It sure ain't the consumers!

If they declare vape-stuff "tobacco products" and then try to stop their being sold alongside cigarettes, BT will have the gov't tied up hand and foot in lawsuits -- as expensive as BT can possibly make them -- for DECADES if necessary -- and does our gov't have money for that? REALLY? If they're so damn rich, why are they trying so hard to make every possible cent from our new technology?

The reason why BT doesn't really mind about the "master settlement" payments is because they've got TONS of money, and just keep making more -- and they'll use that mint to make sure the gov't keeps a level playing field -- if e-cigs are tobacco products that BT has to pony up for. Just watch.

Andria

BT isn't gonna lose Anyway that e-Liquids are Sold.

Be it 15ml Bottles that are Only sold at selected Retailers, Or Only Pre-Filled Cartos sold alongside Cigarettes. Or (what I think is Very Likely) No Internet Sales Period.

 

[AndriaD]

Well, I think I've observed before that you seem quite determined to have a negative attitude about the whole thing, and I think that's actually dangerous, for a couple of reasons; 1) we have to keep a positive attitude about it, in order to keep the resistance to the FDA going, or why not just give up and let 'em steamroller us; and 2) if those brand-new to vaping catch that negative attitude, maybe they just give up before they become a full-fledged vaper, so they don't contribute to the noise being made about e-cigs being safer than cigarettes, or contribute to CASAA, or participate in any of the CTAs, or anything else that might help "the cause" -- they just give up and go back to smoking, and that helps no one at all.

And last but not least... being really afraid, convinced that some bad thing is gonna happen, gives that bad thing a lot of mental energy, and just helps to bring it about. "That which I have feared has come upon me." Maybe if it hadn't been feared so desperately, so *energetically*, it wouldn't have.

Andria

 

[zoiDman]

Well, I think I've observed before that you seem quite determined to have a negative attitude about the whole thing, and I think that's actually dangerous, for a couple of reasons; 1) we have to keep a positive attitude about it, in order to keep the resistance to the FDA going, or why not just give up and let 'em steamroller us; and 2) if those brand-new to vaping catch that negative attitude, maybe they just give up before they become a full-fledged vaper, so they don't contribute to the noise being made about e-cigs being safer than cigarettes, or contribute to CASAA, or participate in any of the CTAs, or anything else that might help "the cause" -- they just give up and go back to smoking, and that helps no one at all.

And last but not least... being really afraid, convinced that some bad thing is gonna happen, gives that bad thing a lot of mental energy, and just helps to bring it about. "That which I have feared has come upon me." Maybe if it hadn't been feared so desperately, so *energetically*, it wouldn't have.

Andria

You can call it Negative if you Want. I like to think of it as Realistic. Even though I Don't Like It.

I think Too Many people are getting Complacent about what Can Happen with the e-Cigarette Market. Look at the New Threads Every Day. How many do you see that have Anything to do about the FDA Comment Period? Or Anything to do with the FDA period? When a New Vaper comes here, do you think they have Any Idea what is coming down the Road?

I wish I could Positive Attitude about where the e-Cigarette Market is Going. And it would be Great if CASAA could Win All the Battles that it will have to Fight. But I Don't think that is Going to Happen.

I think people have Become Very Apathetic about the Direction the e-Cigarette Market is going. And to Many think that Everything will Turn Out OK.

 

[AndriaD]

I think people have Become Very Apathetic about the Direction the e-Cigarette Market is going. And to Many think that Everything will Turn Out OK.

I don't think anyone really believes wholesale that "everything will turn out OK" -- it's too obvious that *something* is going to be changing, we just don't yet know what, or how it will affect us -- maybe it won't be awful, just different.

But the apathy? I think that negative attitude is to blame. They come here and read all this doom-saying, and go, well hell, why bother. I really, truly believe that's the bottom line behind most apathy -- it's like depression -- you feel powerless to change anything, so you just give up. And that's a very dangerous mindset, and should be *prevented*, not fostered.

Realistically? Yes, things are changing -- but, to quote the FDA, "we don't yet know!" how things are going to change. Determining in advance that things are going to suck is a really bad way to go about PREVENTING them from sucking.

Cynically? You can't swing a cat in DC without hitting someone who wants to get rich at someone else's expense, and you also can't swing a cat in DC without hitting an absolute FOOL who thinks he/she knows everything about everything.

Pragmatically? We have to do EVERYTHING WE CAN POSSIBLY DO to avert the damage those venal and stupid people can do. Being negative is not a good way to do it.

Andria

 

[zoiDman]

I Dunno Andria.

I talk to a lot of New Vapers. And when I ask them about what they think Will Happen regarding the FDA, Most of them just Tilt their Heads like a Dog Hearing a Faint Noise and say... "What do you mean?"

If we Don't Talk about what Could/Can happen, how do we Expect New Vapers to get Involved?