!! WARNING !! Kanger Subtank RBA Insulator Dissolving Into my Juice !!! What should I use to make one?

Is your new brown insulator in the Subtank Mini showing any sign of deterioration?

  • Swelling or changing shape

  • Changing in color


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ErnieKim

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Wrong! Kanger is replacing all the original Subtank insulators, the white ones. The 2nd release was clear, and now the 3rd replacement is light brown. People have to call or email Kangertech about this, and they send an insulator out.

I can't believe how rudely you address a fellow vaper who has a problem! I just ordered a Mini Subtank from Sweet-Vapes, and they state on their site that these tanks have the NEW insulators. I just hope they're the brown ones instead of the clears.


I assure you if it is a clear insulator, I'll be emailing Kangertech for the brown one. There's a reason they're replacing the clear ones, too...people have reported some have melted.

Who wants to take a chance of this stuff getting into their lungs?

Starr,
Just one more thing to add to your summary: it's been reported that there are brown insulators being shipped by Kanger, for the Mini, that have lands (protrusions) on the bottom side. The good news is that in my case, they were easily removed using a razor blade. The material was quite soft.

Now to throw another wrench into the mix, another shipment of brown ones were made from a harder material, suprise, suprise! This material was challenging and hazardous to cut with a razor blade so I simply sanded it off with 220 grit sandpaper.

I went back and sanded a bit on the softer one. Since it was softer, the sandpaper clogged up quickly but as with the harder material, 220 sandpaper worked well.

In summary, the sandpaper is the safer way to go and also leaves a nice smooth and even surface. It's important to clean it real well when finished sanding. If you're concerned that something might be left behind in the rough sanded surface, just use a couple finer grades of sandpaper. If you go up to 600 grit, the surface will be as smooth and clean as the untouched surface.

Isn't it amazing how much trouble we will go through for a good vape!!
 

DP2Raja

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Starr,
Just one more thing to add to your summary: it's been reported that there are brown insulators being shipped by Kanger, for the Mini, that have lands (protrusions) on the bottom side. The good news is that in my case, they were easily removed using a razor blade. The material was quite soft.

I see absolutely NO replacement insulators for the MINI. Only for the Subtank original. Please let me know where you saw one specifically stating (by Kanger) it is for the Mini. Not on the Kanger USA website anyway.
 

ErnieKim

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I see absolutely NO replacement insulators for the MINI. Only for the Subtank original. Please let me know where you saw one specifically stating (by Kanger) it is for the Mini. Not on the Kanger USA website anyway.
DP2
I received my replacements; for both the Mini and the Full Size from Kanger directly. I corresponded with Kanger China initially through their website. The replacements were shipped to Kanger USA and then to me. There are pictures of them on earlier pages of this post. There are also instructions on how to do the install without stripping the threads.
I'm sure that by now Kanger is swamped with requests for them. I don't know how many of these tanks they shipped but most of the shipped ones don't have the new brown insulator.
 

ErnieKim

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I've gotten a lot of questions about the picture. It's my Brussels Griffon trying on a pair of doggie glasses at a store. We didn't get them, he's funny enough looking without them. In the first picture below, he's giving his "stay away from me I'm trying to rest look". The second picture gives a bit more perspective on the avatar. He's a service dog, note the red vest, 12 years old, and healthy as ever.

So now you know!, thanks for asking.

image.jpg
image.jpg
 

DP2Raja

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DP2
I received my replacements; for both the Mini and the Full Size from Kanger directly. I corresponded with Kanger China initially through their website. The replacements were shipped to Kanger USA and then to me. There are pictures of them on earlier pages of this post. There are also instructions on how to do the install without stripping the threads.
I'm sure that by now Kanger is swamped with requests for them. I don't know how many of these tanks they shipped but most of the shipped ones don't have the new brown insulator.

Thanks for the heads up! I am not sure it is a real replacement if you have to chop and sand though. What's your opinion about having to do that? Just wondering if they shipped the correct items. Not being critical, just curious.
 

ErnieKim

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Thanks for the heads up! I am not sure it is a real replacement if you have to chop and sand though. What's your opinion about having to do that? Just wondering if they shipped the correct items. Not being critical, just curious.

DP2,
You're right, the one with the lands (protrusions) is another mistake. They probably have little factories all over the place making them so it's not surprising. It's not like here with one factory, QA and the like. As a general rule, I can't speak for Kanger, China manufacturers outsource to little mom & pop shops. nothing wrong with that I guess, keeps the price down. I don't mind tinkering a little on a product but it's not for everyone.
 

JC87

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IanDVaypes has posted a picture in the RBA inconsistencies thread of his RBA deck that came with the updated brown insulators pre-installed, and juice channels cut all the way through. If anyone cares to see what the latest version of the RBA looks like, check it out. I've re-posted it in the insulator melting thread as well since it pertains to the issue.

Hopefully this latest version of the RBA puts any issues to rest and everyone can be happy again :)

[edit] I've also been able to start using my subtank mini again by thoroughly cleaning multiple times with alcohol and distilled water and using another OCC coil. I've got my baby back! Partially, but still better than nothing for now :)
 
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Susaz

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I've gotten a lot of questions about the picture. It's my Brussels Griffon trying on a pair of doggie glasses at a store. We didn't get them, he's funny enough looking without them. In the first picture below, he's giving his "stay away from me I'm trying to rest look". The second picture gives a bit more perspective on the avatar. He's a service dog, note the red vest, 12 years old, and healthy as ever.

So now you know!, thanks for asking.

View attachment 410513
View attachment 410514

Griffons are lots of fun. I have a couple of neighbours that play endlessly with my Frenchie. I would have chosen one if it weren't for the hairdressing.
 

drunkenbatman

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I've been grinding so have slipped on this thread, and I mean the below as respectfully as possible, but a few things should be cleared up.

[1.] Just so we're on the same page or for anyone coming to it late. There appear to be 3 known insulators. The original (possibly silicone or hard plastic) white-ish one, the second limited release clear (PEEK), and the one currently released tan one (PEEK), and possibly a minor variation for the mini that's just related to sizing.

[2.] People keep saying that because they changed to a brown PEEK, it's proof there is something wrong with the clear PEEK. That's a huge leap into post hoc ergo propter hoc territory, and while I can't say why the switch happened, there are any number of explanations that are as or even more likely, such as initially sourcing parts that are were more expensive than necessary in order to get a fix out the door before switching to the tan insulators.

[3.] Peek is a partially-crystaline polymer, or thermoplastic, known as polyetheretherketone. It has a glass-transition temp of 143C and melts at around 340C. 143C seems low, but some versions are OK at around 250C. There are 4-5 main grades of PEEK:

(a) Unfilled: No reinforcement, certified for food. Naturally a very light brown, but also comes in black. There are variants that are certified foodsafe/lifescience that aren't tan/black, but they're less common.

(b.) 30% Glass: Glass fibers are added to make it better withstand high temps with less expansion, as things like to expand/contract when cooled/heated and in low-tolerance situations that isn't ideal. Also light brown/tan.

(c.) 30% Carbon: Carbon fibers make it stiffer with much less expansion. Black/dark gray.

(d.)
Keltron/HPV/Bearing: Carbon fiber, plus graphite and lubricants added. Black/dark gray.

(e.)Various Blends: There are white blends (ceramics) and blue blends (glass I believe usually) and translucent blends (vestakeep, etc.). They all behave differently and have different strengths, like ease of injection-molding or extrusion, surface resistance at higher temps, etc.

My hunch is the first clear PEEK falls into (e). It may be that it was actually better for our purposes in some ways and the tan is simply cheaper, or it may be the clear variant was good enough but the tan handles 10C more for the same price. Claiming in bold letters and exclamation points that they're unsafe everywhere doesn't seem warranted.

Thanks for updating us! Unfortunately I and many others have not heard back yet :(

[4.] JC87, you're using language that is implying things I haven't found evidence for. e.g., "I and many others" repeatedly for everything, but when I've searched on this I primarily just keep finding your posts all over the internet (various forums, reddit, multiple threads here). You originally started telling people Kanger wasn't responding to emails about it, after you'd emailed them at 7am and not gotten a reply that day at 5pm. It feels weird.

[5.] I didn't see what underwhelmed posted that got deleted, but I've seen you intimate that he's a schill or works for Kanger at least three times in this and other threads: even though the points I've seen him make are correct. You did change the contents of the posts to change their meaning, and it does look like it melted from heat.

He simply believes that user error was involved, and that you're maybe hoping to conflate the original issue with the insulator to absolve yourself of it. Regardless of whether he's right or wrong, it's a very valid viewpoint and insinuating someone is a schill to intentionally discredit what they're saying isn't cool.

[6.]
I've melted insulators as you're showing, one in an RDA where there was buildup in the positive post and I hadn't cleaned it as thoroughly as the internet had warned me to, and once in a kayfun due to an autofire leading to a dry-burn. I learned from both, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if that's what happened here. As I suggested before, using a little bit of dawn dish soap in the tank should it out and have you up and running, at worst you might have to change the o-rings.

[7.] I get the squeaky-wheel-so-you'll-stop tactic, but you also have to recognize that if there are others who had this issue, they're a statistical rounding error, so it points less to the insulator and more towards something else. There could be something that happened you aren't aware of or aren't telling us, or something off with the RTA platform you received. The tolerances for this design of RTA module are really small, so it may be it wasn't dead-shorting but the wires were causing healt-buildup.

Personally I think it's pretty great that the subtank comes with an RTA module, but there's an argument to made that combining something for novices (replaceable coils) along with something for advanced users (RTA module) is asking for trouble. And there's arguments to made that if someone buys a tank/atomizer he shouldn't have to clean it thoroughly right away of machine oil or other things, but once you work with them awhile you realize that isn't the world we have at the moment.
 
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ErnieKim

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DrunkenBat,
Great to hear from you again!
Great summary and it jives with my email interchanges with Kanger China. They appreciate being able to get info out in an understandable format; tough for them to do, I sure couldn't do it in Chinese.
In General, you hit the nail on the head in that they outsourced production of the insulators to keep up with supply; of course! any company would do that. At some point (probably very quickly) they will standardize with a particular vendor or very specific material, and we will see consistency. In the meantime though, we simply have to accept that there are going to be many variations floating around.
In reality, it's not that tough to monitor an insulator for degradation and change it out as new ones become available. These things aren't THAT complicated. Most people that buy them are prepared to do a bit of "adjustment" it's part of the fun, as far as I'm concerned.
Thanks again for your summary. I don't know what your background is but I always trust your opinion and your information.
ErnieKim
 

JC87

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Feb 4, 2015
164
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I've been grinding so have slipped on this thread, and I mean the below as respectfully as possible, but a few things should be cleared up.

[1.] Just so we're on the same page or for anyone coming to it late. There appear to be 3 known insulators. The original (possibly silicone or hard plastic) white-ish one, the second limited release clear (PEEK), and the one currently released tan one (PEEK), and possibly a minor variation for the mini that's just related to sizing.

[2.] People keep saying that because they changed to a brown PEEK, it's proof there is something wrong with the clear PEEK. That's a huge leap into post hoc ergo propter hoc territory, and while I can't say why the switch happened, there are any number of explanations that are as or even more likely, such as initially sourcing parts that are were more expensive than necessary in order to get a fix out the door before switching to the tan insulators.

[3.] Peek is a partially-crystaline polymer, or thermoplastic, known as polyetheretherketone. It has a glass-transition temp of 143C and melts at around 340C. 143C seems low, but some versions are OK at around 250C. There are 4-5 main grades of PEEK:

(a) Unfilled: No reinforcement, certified for food. Naturally a very light brown, but also comes in black. There are variants that are certified foodsafe/lifescience that aren't tan/black, but they're less common.

(b.) 30% Glass: Glass fibers are added to make it better withstand high temps with less expansion, as things like to expand/contract when cooled/heated and in low-tolerance situations that isn't ideal. Also light brown/tan.

(c.) 30% Carbon: Carbon fibers make it stiffer with much less expansion. Black/dark gray.

(d.)
Keltron/HPV/Bearing: Carbon fiber, plus graphite and lubricants added. Black/dark gray.

(e.)Various Blends: There are white blends (ceramics) and blue blends (glass I believe usually) and translucent blends (vestakeep, etc.). They all behave differently and have different strengths, like ease of injection-molding or extrusion, surface resistance at higher temps, etc.

My hunch is the first clear PEEK falls into (e). It may be that it was actually better for our purposes in some ways and the tan is simply cheaper, or it may be the clear variant was good enough but the tan handles 10C more for the same price. Claiming in bold letters and exclamation points that they're unsafe everywhere doesn't seem warranted.



[4.] JC87, you're using language that is implying things I haven't found evidence for. e.g., "I and many others" repeatedly for everything, but when I've searched on this I primarily just keep finding your posts all over the internet (various forums, reddit, multiple threads here). You originally started telling people Kanger wasn't responding to emails about it, after you'd emailed them at 7am and not gotten a reply that day at 5pm. It feels weird.

[5.] I didn't see what underwhelmed posted that got deleted, but I've seen you intimate that he's a schill or works for Kanger at least three times in this and other threads: even though the points I've seen him make are correct. You did change the contents of the posts to change their meaning, and it does look like it melted from heat.

He simply believes that user error was involved, and that you're maybe hoping to conflate the original issue with the insulator to absolve yourself of it. Regardless of whether he's right or wrong, it's a very valid viewpoint and insinuating someone is a schill to intentionally discredit what they're saying isn't cool.

[6.]
I've melted insulators as you're showing, one in an RDA where there was buildup in the positive post and I hadn't cleaned it as thoroughly as the internet had warned me to, and once in a kayfun due to an autofire leading to a dry-burn. I learned from both, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if that's what happened here. As I suggested before, using a little bit of dawn dish soap in the tank should it out and have you up and running, at worst you might have to change the o-rings.

[7.] I get the squeaky-wheel-so-you'll-stop tactic, but you also have to recognize that if there are others who had this issue, they're a statistical rounding error, so it points less to the insulator and more towards something else. There could be something that happened you aren't aware of or aren't telling us, or something off with the RTA platform you received. The tolerances for this design of RTA module are really small, so it may be it wasn't dead-shorting but the wires were causing healt-buildup.

Personally I think it's pretty great that the subtank comes with an RTA module, but there's an argument to made that combining something for novices (replaceable coils) along with something for advanced users (RTA module) is asking for trouble. And there's arguments to made that if someone buys a tank/atomizer he shouldn't have to clean it thoroughly right away of machine oil or other things, but once you work with them awhile you realize that isn't the world we have at the moment.

They still haven't responded about replacing the damaged rba, so yes its weird to me as well. I've only heard back about replacement insulators, which would be fine if the remains from the original insulator weren't melted into the RBA deck and unable to be removed.

I am still of the opinion they made revisions because of previous failures with the design of the RBA itself and the clear insulator. If you notice, the new RBA had new additions to the insulator, as well as additional insulation added to the airhole screw.

I've been saying "I and many others" because Ive done a ton of searching and reading on this issue across the internet. Various posts here, and posts there stating problems. While I HAVE been the one to make the majority of threads about the issue, if you dig deeper into the actual content of a lot of threads (even threads here) you will see I am clearly not the only ones with issues regarding the clear insulator. If you wish, I could link you to every single thread Ive seen a user have problems with them in.

I did edit my post, because I agreed at first it could have been heat, and then edited it to say that I dont know what caused it. Because that is the truth. I have no idea what caused it, other than it wasn't user error. I was finally able to clean the tank multiple times with alcohol and distilled water with rolled up lint free paper towerls, so I am now able to at least use the OCC coils again while I wait for kanger to address my RBA.

This isnt about being a squeaky wheel until I stop. If this happened to me and others, it could potentially happen to anybody. What if that person was not using a protected battery, their insulator melted and they had a short and subsequently vented their battery or worse, it exploded. They are a risk to everyone around them in that case. If I save one person from that happening to them, it was worth it to me. Sorry you dont like me spreading information you think I have an agenda for, but my agenda is for the saftey of the userbase, to get them the best version of the product possible, and also to share experiences. While there has been a lot of buzz about it lately, clearly people want to know more. Im sorry you have an issue with that.

Like you I also was thrilled about the subtank including an RBA, because thats the sole reason I purchased it. I was super excited, and during the time my RBA functioned, it worked amazingly well. Im very eager to be able to use it again if it gets fixed.


[edit] The new insulators are out now, so lets hope its finally fixed. If people with the clear insulators and the old RBA decks want an upgrade, I think they should be entitled to one, or the subtank should clearly mark the latest versions with the new RBA/insulators as V1, V2, V3, etc. Right now its a bit shady that the first RBA deck came with rounded juice channels, the second and third have them cut all the way through. Same with the insulators. They need to be clear to the user what they are getting upon making their order.
 
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Jockamo

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In my email conversation with Kanger USA I was assured the clear and tan insulators are fine. A running change of materials is my guess.

I ordered those tan insulators from their site and like others, one fit the 25mm and the other does not (fit the mini). The hole is the right size(for the mini) so no problem fitting it up should the need arise. In the email Kanger support claimed the insulators are "for the two different types of regular Subtanks". I'm not sure what that means. Maybe a version that never came to market. There is only one regular Subtank that I know of.
 
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ErnieKim

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In my email conversation with Kanger USA I was assured the clear and tan insulators are fine. A running change of materials is my guess.

I ordered those tan insulators from their site and like others, one fit the 25mm and the other does not (fit the mini). The hole is the right size(for the mini) so no problem fitting it up should the need arise. In the email Kanger support claimed the insulators are "for the two different types of regular Subtanks". I'm not sure what that means. Maybe a version that never came to market. There is only one regular Subtank that I know of.

Jock,
There was another version, they changed right before Christmas. There was a group buy here on the forum, you can find it if you want, and the fellow that ran the buy would have more info if you're interested. I don't know what was changed exactly.
 
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ErnieKim

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I got a message from someone who stripped their threads and are trying to get Kanger to replace it. Don't know if they will or not but its a Pain in the tush and is easily avoidable.

I posted a tip while back on how to avoid stripping But here it is again.

1) hold the deck block and insulator away from the deck
2) push the threaded post up from the bottom
3) start the thread into the block while holding the block away from the deck
4) since its misaligned a bit, you'll get some resistance
5) keep tightening and push or tap on the block lightly
6) tighten and tap until it's down snug

Sure it's a bit of a pain but hey, the tank only cost 40 bucks!
image.jpg
 

Jockamo

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Jock,
There was another version, they changed right before Christmas. There was a group buy here on the forum, you can find it if you want, and the fellow that ran the buy would have more info if you're interested. I don't know what was changed exactly.

Well, we know there was the "monkey a**" version as well. All I know is what is Kanger told me today which is the clear and tan are fine. It may be different tomorrow.
I wrote back to clarify and was once again told both versions were ok to use which is why they are not selling the mini insulator on that site. Retail versions did not ship with white. Paraphrasing

There is a lot of speculation out there and would suggest, to anyone that is interested, contact Kanger and see if they get the same answer.
 
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