Thank you for your view point. Perhaps you can collaborate with others and start a new guide. My final word -- check out the ECF library, and ask questions.
What in the world is wrong with simplicity?
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Thank you for your view point. Perhaps you can collaborate with others and start a new guide. My final word -- check out the ECF library, and ask questions.
I agree with the OP - there's such a wide variety of models, options and configurations and the same dozen Chinese pieces of hardware have a dozen names apiece due to re-branding - hence questions like "Which is better, the eGo-T or the Tornado Tank?".
I'm a geek, and I'm amazed and impressed with all of the different configs and options, but I remember when I got my first 510 - they sent me a free drip tip along with my starter kit and I had no remote clue what I was supposed to do with it, most probably because I'd also gotten a lot of pre-filled carts but no bottles of juice. I lost it without ever having used it.
There's a reason why WhiteCloud, Blu and some others are getting away with 200% and 400% markup, and I think that it has everything to do with only selling 6 parts total and having a home page that consists primarily of a "how to use an e-cig" tutorial.
I'm a geek, and I'm amazed and impressed with all of the different configs and options, but I remember when I got my first 510 - they sent me a free drip tip along with my starter kit and I had no remote clue what I was supposed to do with it, most probably because I'd also gotten a lot of pre-filled carts but no bottles of juice. I lost it without ever having used it.
There's a reason why WhiteCloud, Blu and some others are getting away with 200% and 400% markup, and I think that it has everything to do with only selling 6 parts total and having a home page that consists primarily of a "how to use an e-cig" tutorial.
My posting of the above thread was acknowledging the similarity between this thread and that one.
My subsequent post to: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ping-illustrated-guide-e-cigs-part-1-6-a.html, and MistressNomad, and the ECF library were in regards to helping new vapers.
I think the most daunting thing to a newbie here is that it isn't as simple as smoking...drop into the corner store and pick-up a pack and go. I think most newbies want something that easy. I've only been vaping a couple months and I started out with a KR808 setup with a couple of batteries and cartos. It got me off smokes and was simple, but you really have to plan ahead. Bought some more cartos and some juice, still pretty simple. Now I have a small tackle box full of juice, cartos, syringes, bent paperclips...it's my junkie kit.
I still use cartos, my modded ce2s, an ego and several 808s. The thought of atties and dripping just does not appeal to me. I'm sure I'll be told I don't know what I'm missing...but I don't care, my setup works for me. I do have to admit that the pro-vari is appealing, but that's just the tech geek-junkie in me.
I still use cartos, my modded ce2s, an ego and several 808s. The thought of atties and dripping just does not appeal to me. I'm sure I'll be told I don't know what I'm missing...but I don't care, my setup works for me. I do have to admit that the pro-vari is appealing, but that's just the tech geek-junkie in me.
I amazed at how many suppliers provide little or no product description. That's a mistake if you ask me. Liberty Flights does a good job with product descriptions. I've never bought from them, but I am considering buying a Riva 510, for the battery life and because the paint is all but gone on my 901s. That isn't lead paint is it?
I didnt see anyone say their starter kit was the best, nor was it said that it be the easiest solution to everyone's needs either. You're now injecting here. bleck however it was said that if every newbie just bought a box mod.... which I disagreed with.
I just said simple, several newbies have chimed in in agreement, but yet ya'll are still arguing against it? There neednt be an argument at all. I never said box werent simple, I said they are ugly. Yep my opinion, and guess what? My opinion is what most counts TO ME.
As to the one who posted about being forced to vape a newbie kit and then a box mod... I'd go back to my eGo.. wait no... I'd never let anyone force me to vape a box in the first place. That's the great thing about freedom.
Now, someone else said something about crappy e-cigs and people always upgrade. Not true, there was a dude that I worked with who bought one those stupid expensive automatic e-cigs with the prefilled carts, he loved it and continues to use it. He's not smoking nor does he feel the need to upgrade even after I explained to him the difference (including cost) of mine vs his. he's just one person I know of, how many more in the world are there? I think it's wrong to assume that all of those people fail and go back to smoking just because they arent on ECF and upgrading to promoted mods.
My point remains and others have agreed, not everyone needs or even wants VV mods.. many people just want simple and complete with not alot of having to fool around with it. Take for what it's worth or dont.
I'm not upset about it as someone suggested, I was merely trying to present another point of view for those who may have forgotten what it's like to not know all the ins and outs of PV's. Apprently this raises the hackles of many a veteran vaper and this was not my intention. Yes I used "I" quite a bit for two reason, I could mention names, but I wont and even though I have managed to wade through a lot of info here, doesnt mean just anyone can. Many dont which is why they ask questions, and sometimes ask bad questions or questions that have been asked before. When a veteran says DUH to a newbie question... there's the attitude I would hope to avoid as a newbie. It may be DUH to you, but not to everyone. And why do I even care? Because I have converted several people, and always refer them to this site and guess what... they get overwhelmed, not to return, or to only return for specific links to a thread on here that I send them, and are totally happy with their little 510/901 or whatever it is they bought as their neat little starter kit. They are not smoking and that's all I really care about!
I don't understand why the debate continues. Everybody has their own opinions, but you can't change the truths.
It's not as easy as pulling a cigarette out of a pack and lighting it. It never will be.
There are many options. That is one of the good things about vaping. Options.
You can't make vaping as simple as lighting a cigarette, and you can't make smoking safe. It's just a choice to invest a little research for your health, or keep smoking. That is the first option. Then there are batterys, atomizers, cartridges, cartomizers, juices, dripping, not to mention that there are mods for everything from cartridge filler to battery mods to juice feeding systems . . . it just isn't as simple as smoking. Every option has pros and cons for different individuals, but it will never be simple to start, and you can't tell a new person that ____ will be the simplest.
It's not as easy as pulling a cigarette out of a pack and lighting it. It never will be.
There are many options. That is one of the good things about vaping. Options.
You can't make vaping as simple as lighting a cigarette, and you can't make smoking safe. It's just a choice to invest a little research for your health, or keep smoking. That is the first option. Then there are batterys, atomizers, cartridges, cartomizers, juices, dripping, not to mention that there are mods for everything from cartridge filler to battery mods to juice feeding systems . . . it just isn't as simple as smoking. Every option has pros and cons for different individuals, but it will never be simple to start, and you can't tell a new person that ____ will be the simplest.
Excellent answer to this thread!!
I guess if we followed the OP's advice, when 20 newbies comes on here and say they want a device that is simple, easy and looks like the real thing, we should all make this type of suggestions:
Well, that would be a super mini or if you want just a little more "pizzazz" but in the same size then get a "Blu". Oh and since you want it simple, stick with auto batteries. Then after a week (or probably less) of massive inconsistency and frustration the result would be something like this:
1 or 2 of the newbs would figure this is the best there is and keep "hitting their heads against the wall" trying to make it work.
2-3 of the newbs would come back and complain about their device and give us an earful.
The other 15+ would throw the POS in the trash and go buy a pack of analogs. And no, they would not come back here, because they would figure that those of us with all our experience are full of it since we told them to buy that POS PV in the first place. And I wouldn't blame them.
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I think that hackles were raised because your tone implies that your opinion is the most important one and therefore no one else's should matter to anyone so how dare they post information you don't agree with where you don't think it should be. Anyone you don't agree with is automatically deemed a fanboy, while you feel free to tout the product you like. Everyone here has opinions just as valid as yours. While you find the box mods ugly and others might also, there are plenty of us who value the beauty of the woodwork on some, the paintjob or clean lines of others. This is where the phrase "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" comes into play.
Yes there are a lot of options, and yes there are a lot of opinions. I have talked to 2 friends and a family member about vaping and had them try it. I found out what they were looking for in the experience, knew what and how much they smoked before and what they're tolerance was for fiddling with equipment and recommended different things to all of them based on what I thought would work best for them to start with to ease them into vaping, knowing that they'd eventually upgrade. I did the research for them since they had neither the time nor the tolerance to come here and do it. Unfortunately, when people ask for opinions we don't always know all of these things about them so they get a lot of opinions and a lot of options to sort through. I have been here for almost 2 years, and very few people are making any money off the products they advise people to try. If they were they'd be confined to the suppliers forum. From my experience people here give the advice they really think will be the most helpful to new people just getting started. They remember the trials and errors of just getting started and finding what works for them and how much money they spent to get there and are trying to save people from going thru the same trials. Some people need to go thru the trial and error period and others would rather jump in with both feet and both are perfectly valid ways to go about it. But people need to know their options, and that there are options, because with vaping one size does not fit all. At least they know that if what they try first doesn't satisfy them that there are other things they can try instead of deciding based on one device that vaping doesn't work for them.
Yes there are a lot of options, and yes there are a lot of opinions. I have talked to 2 friends and a family member about vaping and had them try it. I found out what they were looking for in the experience, knew what and how much they smoked before and what they're tolerance was for fiddling with equipment and recommended different things to all of them based on what I thought would work best for them to start with to ease them into vaping, knowing that they'd eventually upgrade. I did the research for them since they had neither the time nor the tolerance to come here and do it. Unfortunately, when people ask for opinions we don't always know all of these things about them so they get a lot of opinions and a lot of options to sort through. I have been here for almost 2 years, and very few people are making any money off the products they advise people to try. If they were they'd be confined to the suppliers forum. From my experience people here give the advice they really think will be the most helpful to new people just getting started. They remember the trials and errors of just getting started and finding what works for them and how much money they spent to get there and are trying to save people from going thru the same trials. Some people need to go thru the trial and error period and others would rather jump in with both feet and both are perfectly valid ways to go about it. But people need to know their options, and that there are options, because with vaping one size does not fit all. At least they know that if what they try first doesn't satisfy them that there are other things they can try instead of deciding based on one device that vaping doesn't work for them.
There is a very good reason for the confusion...
Name one other product that you have never used before and had to rely on the web to purchase your first one.
Try to imagine the thought process of a person that decides "today is the day that I will consider an e-cig."
Most people do not have the ability to walk into a store and see the quality choices that are available.
e-health and greensmoke are my choices where I live.
Jump on the web and google greensmoke. 20 pages of raving reviews.
Now just google e-cig and what do you get?
The first 10 pages are filled with the products and vendors that we know to avoid.
Coincidently, the exact same products that I can physically see at convenience stores.
Apologies upfront if you are one of the good vendors on these first 10 pages...you get my gist.
So, 100's of pages later, the noob reads marketing, reviews, opposing opinions, the reality of on-going hardware costs, juices, nic levels, new terminology, non-compatible components, and so on.
At what point would the reader assume ecf is a good site? or cignot? or BWB?
A noob is willing to spend a hundred on their starter kit.
Little did they realize how quickly a second hundred was about to be spent.
The 2nd hundred is the exact fear that went through their head the first time they hit the PAY NOW button.
Name one other product that you have never used before and had to rely on the web to purchase your first one.
Try to imagine the thought process of a person that decides "today is the day that I will consider an e-cig."
Most people do not have the ability to walk into a store and see the quality choices that are available.
e-health and greensmoke are my choices where I live.
Jump on the web and google greensmoke. 20 pages of raving reviews.
Now just google e-cig and what do you get?
The first 10 pages are filled with the products and vendors that we know to avoid.
Coincidently, the exact same products that I can physically see at convenience stores.
Apologies upfront if you are one of the good vendors on these first 10 pages...you get my gist.
So, 100's of pages later, the noob reads marketing, reviews, opposing opinions, the reality of on-going hardware costs, juices, nic levels, new terminology, non-compatible components, and so on.
At what point would the reader assume ecf is a good site? or cignot? or BWB?
A noob is willing to spend a hundred on their starter kit.
Little did they realize how quickly a second hundred was about to be spent.
The 2nd hundred is the exact fear that went through their head the first time they hit the PAY NOW button.
This is why we argue about it....I know nothing about those things and it in no way affected my buying a PV and quitting smoking...So it couldn't be that important of a factor..I'll bet most vapors started AND managed to quit smoking with a basic system....Maybe it didn't/doesn't satisfy them enough...but I'll bet if they really wanted to stay off cigs.. they could manage to do so with only having a 510 system...Nothing wrong with wanting more...but saying you have become a vaping junkie not to smoke cigarettes just isn't the case..
Add to that the real possibility that the noob is not going to like vaping. When I talk to noobs about ecigs, this is what I tell them. "If I were you, I'd buy a 901 or 510 starter kit. Understand that the atomizers are disposable parts, and you never know how long they'll last. So buy a couple of extra of those. And the pre-filled cartridges are ripoffs. Buy you a tobacco flavored juice, and maybe a flavor of juice you think you'll like because it's much cheaper to fill your carts yourself. And if you like vaping, and think you want to stick with it, there are all kinds of other models and mods you can get into. If you don't like it. I'll buy your used stuff from you".
I don't throw all the "wattage, voltage, hey you can drip, how about a carrying case?, a skin?, feel like making your own juice?" at them. I try to steer them to products with pretty high success rates that don't cost so much they're apprehensive about starting. My story is a good one for noobs. Same model for two years, I spend about $20 a month, and I ain't smoked analogs since. That's what Sassy was hoping for.
Frankly people, it should be that simple. The problem is not that there are so many products and opinions. The problem is that ecig industry can't make an ecig that isn't susceptible to problems at a high rate. And that's partly our fault for jumping from one product to another instead of demanding a product that works like it's supposed to. The coffee maker didn't really take off until someone built one that made coffee that didn't taste like dirty feet.
And yes, I do think there's a China factor to all this. They make crappy stuff. And they've never been much for consumer satisfaction. It's a shame that the business environment is such in America that no sane person would invest a large sum of money in the manufacturing of ecigs. Because it's clear to me that the federal government is going to find a way to tax ecigs and make it so they cost as much if not more than analogs. There is no way the federal government is going allow anything to cut into the profits they make from the sale of analogs. What? You think the government really wants people not to smoke? That's going to happen folks. These things will either be regulated highly, or outright banned. You're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.
I would have to respectively disagree, e-cigs are an emerging technology. It has not been perfected
by any means, although from some Modders Forum posts, we're getting closer.
Someday maybe...When the automobile was invented, there weren't windows that rolled up at the push of a button,
heck not even an automatic starter, they broke down constantly, leaked oil, didn't last very long
without needing to be replaced. Kind of sounds like today's e-cig, it took years of research and
development to bring about the modern car we take for granted.
If early drivers took the attitude of "it don't do 0-100 mph in 6 sec, and it's difficult to use", the
technology would have never moved forward. We are still on the bleeding edge of a brand new
technology, one that is trying to be suppressed by the government, and is driven by nicotine addicts.
Current e-cigs require maintenance, for any noob it's a dis-service to pretend differently. We can
recommend systems, honestly noting the pros and cons, but it's still a crap shoot. From the cheapest
disposable to the most expensive mod, constant maintenance and problems are a fact of a vapers
life. Nowhere in this entire thread have I seen any PV of any type "off the shelf" or mod that does not
have a long list of problems or required learning curve. IMO
Define maintenance...Charging my batteries?...filling a cartomizer?...refilling a cartomizer?....Throwing it away when it doesn't perform anymore?....That's all my "maintenance"...
I would have to respectively disagree, e-cigs are an emerging technology. It has not been perfected
by any means, although from some Modders Forum posts, we're getting closer.
When the automobile was invented, there weren't windows that rolled up at the push of a button,
heck not even an automatic starter, they broke down constantly, leaked oil, didn't last very long
without needing to be replaced. Kind of sounds like today's e-cig, it took years of research and
development to bring about the modern car we take for granted.
If early drivers took the attitude of "it don't do 0-100 mph in 6 sec, and it's difficult to use", the
technology would have never moved forward. We are still on the bleeding edge of a brand new
technology, one that is trying to be suppressed by the government, and is driven by nicotine addicts.
Current e-cigs require maintenance, for any noob it's a dis-service to pretend differently. We can
recommend systems, honestly noting the pros and cons, but it's still a crap shoot. From the cheapest
disposable to the most expensive mod, constant maintenance and problems are a fact of a vapers
life. Nowhere in this entire thread have I seen any PV of any type "off the shelf" or mod that does not
have a long list of problems or required learning curve. IMO
I'm sure it will get simpler. But I still cannot believe that it will ever be as easy as pulling a cigarette out of a pack and lighting it.
Manufactured cigarettes are only one of many types of tobacco in use. There are just as many options with tobacco as there are for vaping, and many more devices than the vaping world currently has. Every type of tobacco used, other than commercially produced cigarettes requires care and maintenance. Pipes, rolling papers and machines, devices for keeping tobacco at the proper moisture level, etc. All stuff that the majority of cigarette smokers would not wish to bother with.
The same is true for electronic cigarettes. There will always be more to it than just pulling it out and vaping it. There will be charging, cleaning, refilling/replacing, and changing of flavors if so desired. The only way to make it the same as pulling a cigarette out of a pack and lighting it, would be to have a pack of disposables to vape. If that were to happen at a cost effective rate, then it would be an excellent place to send beginners, but I would join those who would oppose throwing that many batteries into landfills.
So that brings it back to thread types, atomizer types, etc, just like the difference between Fords and Hondas. Because of manufacturers wanting to make a profit, there will always be differences and those differences will add complexity, meaning that vaping will never be as easy as smoking a cigarette.
I know that people can read their own emotions into what somebody types, so I hope that all comes across as simply describing my thought process. (Since there seems to be a lot of tension in this thread.
)FWIW, most of the time that I advise a newbie of what to get, it will be to get anything . . . usually what is on sale so they don't spend too much money. Just get started and become familiar with vaping, then come back with questions.
I would have to respectively disagree, e-cigs are an emerging technology. It has not been perfected
by any means, although from some Modders Forum posts, we're getting closer.
When the automobile was invented, there weren't windows that rolled up at the push of a button,
heck not even an automatic starter, they broke down constantly, leaked oil, didn't last very long
without needing to be replaced. Kind of sounds like today's e-cig, it took years of research and
development to bring about the modern car we take for granted.
If early drivers took the attitude of "it don't do 0-100 mph in 6 sec, and it's difficult to use", the
technology would have never moved forward. We are still on the bleeding edge of a brand new
technology, one that is trying to be suppressed by the government, and is driven by nicotine addicts.
Current e-cigs require maintenance, for any noob it's a dis-service to pretend differently. We can
recommend systems, honestly noting the pros and cons, but it's still a crap shoot. From the cheapest
disposable to the most expensive mod, constant maintenance and problems are a fact of a vapers
life. Nowhere in this entire thread have I seen any PV of any type "off the shelf" or mod that does not
have a long list of problems or required learning curve. IMO
Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones. My goal was to keep it as simple as possible, not a hobby like some; although I think some people enjoy it as a hobby--not me.
I started out of with a joye ego p/t and boge lr carto's. The joye ego still works and never had any maintenance issues with it. I didn't try to clean my boge carto's, when they clogged up I threw them out. I used about 3 of them a week at $7.95 for a pack of 5.
I moved on the the ego-t and loved the heck out of these things. I know some people had problems with them, but again, for some reason they worked flawlessly for me. I wanted to get at least a month out of 1 atty and I got that plus. I'm still using the original tanks that I started with. I'm still using the ego-t's, but not as much since I got my mod.
I now own a provari that I have had for 1 month now and I haven't had any issues and literally no maintenace other than recharging the 2 AW batteries--if you want to call that maintenance. I have been running a joye 510 hv debridged atty for the past month on it and it works as well as it did on the 1st day. I've cleaned it once by running heated distilled water thru it with a syringe and blowing it out. The cleaning took about 10mins including heating the water, and it was back on my provari in use. I work from home, so that atty gets 95% of my ecig use.
I haven't seen a long list of problems with the provari, but truthfully I haven't gone back to the provape forum much since I got mine; however, before I got mine I didn't see a "long list of problems"--that's why I bought it. While I wouldn't suggest the provari as a first device, mainly because you need to find out if ecig's are for you, it is an extremely user-friendly device.
You can make ecig's as complex or simple as you like, but with a little bit of research on ECF and cognitive ability, it's elementary. The advice to newbies: Keep it Simple.
cheers,
Edit: I should add all the down time I had going outside to smoke a cigarette while working at the house. Twenty cigarettes a day and 10 minutes of down time for each cigarette...not to mention days when it was below zero with the wind blowing 20-40mph with snow or other inclement weather.
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I've talked personally with one developer of one of the better PV's on the market and one supplier who have both delt with several of the PV manufacturers in China. They explained to me that the Chinese companies are ready and willing to make PV's to the highest specifications requested by their buyers in the US. BUT, the largest buyers in the US have stipulated that the PV's be as cheaply made as possible with no upgrades at all. The large US companies know that US consumers want "cheap" not quality and instead put their money where Americans are most impressed - marketing.
There are plenty of US made pv's that are of the utmost quality and these vendors can't keep them in stock or you're on a waiting list--try buying a provari, darwin etc. The American consumer wants quality...look what happened to the US car industry when japan entered it in the '70s. Japan offered a better quality vehicle at a cheaper price. That's just one example...there's a thousand more.
cheers,
I don't doubt that. But as it stands, you'd be fool to begin manufacturing ecigs in America, Regardless of whether they were cheaply made, or high quality. Of course, that's not a problem with just ecigs. It applies to a great many products.
A couple of years ago, I came real close to dropping about $15,000 into ordering ecigs and supplies from China with the intent on starting an internet site. I had no real reason to not do it at the time. I'm certain I would have made a tidy profit. Demand way out paced supply at the time. I just thought it would be too much work to move so many products and I figured I didn't have the time to provide quality service and timely shipping.
It concerns me that companies like RJR and Phillip Morris aren't running with the ecig concept. It's a natural fit for them and certainly they could make a killing marketing these things. That tells me they know something we don't. Like they're making inroads into getting ecigs banned or regulated. In any event, if everyone quit smoking tomorrow, calculate the amount of money state and federal governments would lose. So the future of ecigs, to me, is pretty clear. Find the next tea party in your area and go makes some noise.
Relatively speaking though, I don't think these manufacturers have large amount of capital invested (certainly nothing that would approach a Chinese factory). Keeping their stock low is a good business move. I'm sure if they felt entirely comfortable with the future, you'd see someone churning these things out like mad and a major marketing campaign, and people falling hand over foot trying to invest in ecigs.
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