Who will deeming effect in the vaping community?

[JCinFLA]

Some companies (like OSDIY for example), who have always sold TFA, CAP, FW, etc. flavorings (commonly used for baking, candy making, etc.) AND also used in DIY eliquid...have been slowly removing or Clearancing out nearly all tobacco related flavorings from their inventory. They've also either already removed, or are in the process of removing, any/all references to vaping, DIY eliquid, etc. from their websites. So they've looked ahead, planned for what/how Deeming regulations may have affected them, and have taken steps accordingly. They definitely plan to stay in business then.

 

[ExtremeDooty]

What specific questions do you have?

My problem and probably the OP's is that I don't know enough to know what to ask. I was also trying to get this thread back on track. I'm pretty sure the OP wasn't asking for people's refrigerated storage capacity.

My frustration comes from trying to educate myself about deeming by reading the deeming thread. The opening posts had plenty of links but 4 out of 5 are now dead. Then I went to posts near the end and read a page and a half of who likes or looks good with grey hair. Going all the way to the end, everyone was talking about some guy's youtube video which was, except for the most dedicated, impossible to watch for more than a few minutes. The only thing I accomplished was following a link to the petition and signing it. I spent a couple of hours "researching" and still knew nothing about how Deeming would actually affect me.

Thankfully Opinionated hit the nail on the head (thank you Opi). It sounds like I need to learn how to make juice and I should probably buy any equipment I want before next June. Any other questions I have now I don't think anyone can answer. Like what companies will survive, what will be available and how much will prices go up. Like everyone else, I'll just have to wait and see.

 

[DeAnna2112]

Could you put a liter in the fridge?

I have nic, pg, vg stored up and from my estimates i will be good for a couple of years. I just can't fit anymore. Got to thinking how all of this is going to play out for BT though. Just a shame we have to have stock piles to preserve our joy of vaping.

 

[Opinionated]

My problem and probably the OP's is that I don't know enough to know what to ask. I was also trying to get this thread back on track. I'm pretty sure the OP wasn't asking for people's refrigerated storage capacity.

My frustration comes from trying to educate myself about deeming by reading the deeming thread. The opening posts had plenty of links but 4 out of 5 are now dead. Then I went to posts near the end and read a page and a half of who likes or looks good with grey hair. Going all the way to the end, everyone was talking about some guy's youtube video which was, except for the most dedicated, impossible to watch for more than a few minutes. The only thing I accomplished was following a link to the petition and signing it. I spent a couple of hours "researching" and still knew nothing about how Deeming would actually affect me.

Thankfully Opinionated hit the nail on the head (thank you Opi). It sounds like I need to learn how to make juice and I should probably buy any equipment I want before next June. Any other questions I have now I don't think anyone can answer. Like what companies will survive, what will be available and how much will prices go up. Like everyone else, I'll just have to wait and see.

Honestly, and I am sure I speak for us all, we apologize for cutting up a bit in that thread. I am sure that made it more difficult to decipher and for that I do apologize.

Future reference, everyone here is willing to be as helpful as can be. If you see a thread like the deeming thread and your not getting the information you need, you wont be bothering not one person (and actually be giving us something positive to do...lol) by sticking your head in, making a post and say "HEY! Can someone break this down for me into layman's terms?" Ill guarantee you, you will have the right information given to you by many..

You are correct, we don't know who will survive, what will get approved, and how prices will be affected. The place I buy e juice at, Heather's Heavenly Vapes, has submitted all applicable forms and fees seeking FDA approval for each and every one of the e juice they make and sell. They got it all in on time, and properly.

Now, they wait.... I think at this point, you can start asking some US manufactures directly whether or not they are seeking approval for their product. I know REO Mods is seeking FDA approval, and they are a US manufacturer. Chinese companies I think are a point of unknown, will Aspire, for instance, seek what they need to sell in this country? That I don't personally know..

Fasttech, for instance, will sell to any country... but you take the risk if what your buying is illegal in your country of having your purchase confiscated with no recourse as to your loss. I am sure that practice will continue, so we will still likely see a few things get through customs regardless of FDA approval, however, it wont be in the quantity we see today.

But your correct, we do face certain unknowns that until they happen we just cannot say. Taxes will probably increase incrementally rather than overnight.. that is the governments way. Too much all at once people get upset, little by little is easier to adjust to.

But yeah, jump in any thread and just say hey, I need help! We will try and help you the best we can.

 

[ENAUD]

My problem and probably the OP's is that I don't know enough to know what to ask. I was also trying to get this thread back on track. I'm pretty sure the OP wasn't asking for people's refrigerated storage capacity.

My frustration comes from trying to educate myself about deeming by reading the deeming thread. The opening posts had plenty of links but 4 out of 5 are now dead. Then I went to posts near the end and read a page and a half of who likes or looks good with grey hair. Going all the way to the end, everyone was talking about some guy's youtube video which was, except for the most dedicated, impossible to watch for more than a few minutes. The only thing I accomplished was following a link to the petition and signing it. I spent a couple of hours "researching" and still knew nothing about how Deeming would actually affect me.

Thankfully Opinionated hit the nail on the head (thank you Opi). It sounds like I need to learn how to make juice and I should probably buy any equipment I want before next June. Any other questions I have now I don't think anyone can answer. Like what companies will survive, what will be available and how much will prices go up. Like everyone else, I'll just have to wait and see.

I understand your frustration, some of us have been following this for a long time. Yeah, @Opinionated wrote a well thought out post there. the rest of it, we don't really know, because the FDA has recently had somewhat of a change in course and have granted an extension until 2022 for the final PMTA's to be completed, but there are other dates and requirements for the industry to comply with before then.

Short answer, nobody can even guess who will survive and who won't. So if you have a device you really feel you can't go on without, get extras and put them away. Mods with internal non replaceable batteries will only last as long as the shelf life of those batteries will allow.

As far as e-liquid goes, Many of us learned to DIY and stocked up on 100mg/ml nicotine so we could keep vaping no matter what. Not everyone is interested or perhaps even capable of doing that. It seems likely that some eliquid vendors will go through the process and survive, but there is no guarantee of who or what will remain. A lot still depends on the FDA and what new guidance's they release regarding compliance requirements from the manufacturers, we are still waiting on that one.

 

[DeAnna2112]

@ExtremeDooty and @DeAnna2112

To say, how deeming will affect the community as a whole, is rather a misnomer as it will affect each part of the vaping community differently.

Likely, YOUR vape gear that you prefer; ie.; cigalikes, will not be adversely affected perse. All of what you need to vape and stay off cigarettes will continue to be available to you, if that is your specific concern.

Here is the community concern with vaping.

#1) That our favored or specific devices become unavailable to us in the future, after the full implementation of the new regulations.

There is a high cost involved, as you likely well know, for a manufacturer to get FDA approval. SO much so, that many smaller manufactures will likely not seek FDA approval, and instead simply sell in markets overseas that do not have such a high cost involved in obtaining that approval.

On top of that, we don't know what specifics the government is looking for to approve. The FDA has speculated that out of the over 1600 vaping products on the market today, that only around 75 - 100 of those will actually become FDA approved when all is said and done. (This does include e juice as well as mods and tanks)

Therefore, some products will someday simply be gone, and the manufacturers either shut their doors, or stop selling to the US market.

This matters to those who have found their unicorn so to speak, the absolute one thing that keeps them off the smokes. For those who are fluid in what type of device they are happy with, it wont affect them as much as they can simply switch the brand of device they use.

#2) That costs will certainly rise. Not only on our favored mods, but also on our e juice. First, manufacturers have to cover the cost not only of initial FDA approval as well as continued necessity to fulfill all FDA standards, but higher costs due to increased taxation of not only our devices but also our e juice.

Regulations have less to do with saving anyone (as not one life has been lost due to vaping, yet multitudes saved) and more to do with inroads to an absolute control over the taxation of these products. Taxes are what they are losing out on as it stands, when a smoker switches to vaping. They need to recoup those economic losses, and turn them into either gains, or at least an even keel where concerns governmental income due to taxes.

E juice is a concern, as that is probably going to be fairly difficult to ascertain how to control and tax it.

HOWEVER, e juice will not go away, but one tank of e juice may someday be the equivalent cost-wise to a pack of cigarettes due to the regulations and taxation thereof. Which is also fine, unless your a tightwad. (which most of us here are in some forum or fashion.. lol)

Also, they might do things such as regulate flavors, as has been threatened, limiting the overall choice, which again is a concern to vapers who love their plethora of flavor choices. However, if your fine with a few basic flavors like strawberry or tobacco, then your probably safe as far as flavored e juice is concerned.

#3.) The biggest concern for many vapers is that things such as mechanical mods, which take more knowledge to operate and are not for the beginner nor the faint of heart, might simply never be able to get past the first approval. This area of vaping however, will likely never affect you personally.

However, this doesn't mean that we don't want to protect this group from an overall ban of their favored products. The goal as vapers is to see people to get off the smokes, which are very deadly, and this group has found THEIR unicorn, and we hate to see anyone lose their right to choice due to government intrusion, as again, not one life has been lost to vaping, not even in this group.

Therefore, as vapers we like to advocate for every vaper, even if or when it might not affect us personally.

In conclusion, these are the concerns of the vaping community, and why you see people stocking up on their favorites, and making sure that no matter what they government does in the future, them and theirs will be able to vape as they are now, and at reasonable cost for the foreseeable future.

But vaping as a whole, will not simply go away. There wont be any kind of an all out ban, the market will simply be much more limited than we know it today, as well as more expensive due to state and federal taxation.

Thank you for taking the time to break things down for me, it was very informative. It's just a shame things have gotten to where they are. I am not a fan of cigalikes, but they work for me when i am not home. I prefer my provari hands down, but i refuse to leave home with it as i've already had one stolen. I guess if the hammer comes down hard on vaping, i can always fall back on the vuse when my stock runs out. Somehow i get the feeling BT products will still be around regardless.

 

[Opinionated]

Thank you for taking the time to break things down for me, it was very informative. It's just a shame things have gotten to where they are. I am not a fan of cigalikes, but they work for me when i am not home. I prefer my provari hands down, but i refuse to leave home with it as i've already had one stolen. I guess if the hammer comes down hard on vaping, i can always fall back on the vuse when my stock runs out. Somehow i get the feeling BT products will still be around regardless.

While sometimes it seems sad that we might not have this or that which we have now become accustomed to, we can also look at all this in a very positive light as well.

The free market (which we have had since the beginning of vaping) has allowed an environment where innovation thrived. That in turn has created new products that are better by leaps and bounds than what was originally on the market.

That innovation, had the industry been under regulatory control from the beginning, would not have happened in this time frame. So, while we may lose some products, what products get approved before innovation slows, will be of a higher quality and more use than what would otherwise have been.

Sometimes, even in the worst of times, we can look for the positive and find peace. Your quite welcome for the help.

 

[puffon]

The place I buy e juice at, Heather's Heavenly Vapes, has submitted all applicable forms and fees seeking FDA approval for each and every one of the e juice they make and sell. They got it all in on time, and properly.

I understood it to be products were to be registered with the FDA by this week.
The FDA may grant approval after the PMTA has been submitted and approved.
The only thing that really has changed is the deadline for PMTA submission, has been delayed until 8/8/22.
Hopefully things will change for the better before then.
A new administration could set us back, depending on who the new FDA director is.

 

[JCinFLA]

@ExtremeDooty - I don't know if this will help you at all, in making any decisions or plans, but this is what I've personally done since the Deeming "stuff" was announced. IMO, it's probably similar to what quite a few of us on ECF have done since then, too.

I knew I wanted to be able to vape for as long as I wanted to in the future, no matter what happened with the FDA and Deeming, so:

I learned how to DIY eliquid and stocked up on nic base for it. IT was the only component that seemed to me to be "iffy", as far as both the future availability of it to the average person and what would happen to the price of it (and possibly taxes on it) in the future. PG, VG, and flavorings used for DIY will likely be available with no problem, since they're all used in other products, too. So I didn't/don't buy more of those than I use on a regular basis now.

I've bought and used a variety of mods and tanks, to find which ones I liked the best. Once I found some of those, I bought multiples of them to stash. Also bought spare parts for those tanks (replacement glass, o-rings, etc.) and lots of spare coils for the tanks that do take factory made coils.

I learned how to make, install, and wick my own coils for the RTAs and RDAs that I do like a lot and bought multiples of for my stash. I bought some Kanthal and some SS wire in varying gauges to use, but not a whole bunch of it. Same thing with cotton and rayon. Wire, cotton, rayon, etc. will always be available for other purposes anyway.

So I think you're on the right track thinking-wise, about learning how to DIY and buying vape equipment that you like while you can still get it. If it turns out you like DIYing and the eliquids you can make...I'd highly recommend buying and stashing some nic base away ASAP then.

 

[Opinionated]

I understood it to be products were to be registered with the FDA by this week.
The FDA may grant approval after the PMTA has been submitted and approved.
The only thing that really has changed is the deadline for PMTA submission, has been delayed until 8/8/22.
Hopefully things will change for the better before then.
A new administration could set us back, depending on who the new FDA director is.

I may have misspoken, or misunderstood. I know they had forums for the FDA they got submitted, and that they are seeking approval of all their products. I don't know which forms they were though, in specific. I just know they made the announcement they got all the registration forms all sent out on time on all their products, after they got them all done.

 

[puffon]

I may have misspoken, or misunderstood. I know they had forums for the FDA they got submitted, and that they are seeking approval of all their products. I don't know which forms they were though, in specific. I just know they made the announcement they got all the registration forms all sent out on time on all their products, after they got them all done.

Here is a FDA link
Guidance
What they submitted was a product listing and registration.
They still have to submit a PMTA by 2022 to get approval....unfortunately.

 

[ScottP]

First we do have quite some time before we really have to worry about what will happen. In fact the compliance with the rules has been extended until Aug. 8, 2022. That also provides us with a LOT of time to try and change their minds.

Commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb made the announcement on July 28th as part of a larger initiative aimed at reducing nicotine-related deaths in the US. Without this policy change, the e-cigarette industry was facing a deadline of next year to seek approval to sell any product that entered the market after Feb. 15, 2007. The new rules grant companies until Aug. 8, 2022. Gottlieb also stated that the FDA will force cigarette companies to reduce the amount of nicotine in traditional cigarettes.

It does seem if they are already starting to change their minds to a degree and see vaping as safer than smoking.

The position signals a change of position on e-cigarettes for the FDA. Previously, the agency treated these products as a gateway to combustible cigarette smoking. But Gottlieb sees potential in these products to work as a smoking cessation tool, telling reporters, “We do think there’s a potential opportunity for e-cigarettes to be a lower-risk alternative to smokers who want to quit combustible cigarettes.”

Second this change in the FDA viewpoint came primarily with the appointment of Dr. Scott Gottlieb by Trump as Commissioner of the FDA. The previous FDA administration was closed minded and refused to even admit that vaping was less harmful than smoking. What this should tell you is elections matter and we need to make sure that elected officials at all levels are at least open-minded in regards to vaping and not ANTZ themselves. If we get too many ANTZ in positions of power we cannot win.

Above quotes from this article: FDA Deeming Regulations On E-Cigarettes Postponed: What That Means | American Council on Science and Health

 

[Opinionated]

Here is a FDA link
Guidance
What they submitted was a product listing and registration.
They still have to submit a PMTA by 2022 to get approval....unfortunately.

Thank you..

 

[Tonee N]

.

Sent from the future

 

[DeAnna2112]

While sometimes it seems sad that we might not have this or that which we have now become accustomed to, we can also look at all this in a very positive light as well.

The free market (which we have had since the beginning of vaping) has allowed an environment where innovation thrived. That in turn has created new products that are better by leaps and bounds than what was originally on the market.

That innovation, had the industry been under regulatory control from the beginning, would not have happened in this time frame. So, while we may lose some products, what products get approved before innovation slows, will be of a higher quality and more use than what would otherwise have been.

Sometimes, even in the worst of times, we can look for the positive and find peace. Your quite welcome for the help.

I love your positive thinking and it's so true in what you said, alot has been accomplished. I just hope vaping isn't destroyed by all this stuff coming down. Thanks again for breaking things down for me and in a way i can understand. Your a very good communicator.

 

[VNeil]

I have nic, pg, vg stored up and from my estimates i will be good for a couple of years. I just can't fit anymore. Got to thinking how all of this is going to play out for BT though. Just a shame we have to have stock piles to preserve our joy of vaping.

If, by chance, you are storing PG and VG in the freezer, you do not have to. That will keep far better than nic and there is no reason to think that it won't continue to be readily available in the future. The nic is the key.

 

[DeAnna2112]

If, by chance, you are storing PG and VG in the freezer, you do not have to. That will keep far better than nic and there is no reason to think that it won't continue to be readily available in the future. The nic is the key.

I need to work on my fear of handling nic. What is really killing me with nic storage is i buy low mg nic. LOL i am just too clumsy when handling the stuff i don't trust myself. When i say low i mean 35mg. I am seriously scared of handling high nic. I see folks on here talking about storing 100mg nic or higher and i am just not that brave. I always make a mess when mixing up my nic,pg and vg. I know i could store alot more by buying it in high nic and maybe need to rethink the situation. As far as i know i don't need to freeze the pg or vg or at least not doing so has worked out fine for me.

 

[VNeil]

I need to work on my fear of handling nic. What is really killing me with nic storage is i buy low mg nic. LOL i am just too clumsy when handling the stuff i don't trust myself. When i say low i mean 35mg. I am seriously scared of handling high nic. I see folks on here talking about storing 100mg nic or higher and i am just not that brave. I always make a mess when mixing up my nic,pg and vg. I know i could store alot more by buying it in high nic and maybe need to rethink the situation. As far as i know i don't need to freeze the pg or vg or at least not doing so has worked out fine for me.

Honestly, this is so important you should just buy a liter or two of 100mg nic and stick it straight in the freezer. Worry about it later. You can always learn to handle it or get comfortable with it at some future time. You may not be able to buy it when you get there.

If you are short of space, 200mg would be better. I know that sounds scary but these may be difficult times.

While it is usually recommend to store nic in glass bottles, if you buy it in plastic bottles and freeze that, then you don't have to worry about breaking it. It's pretty idiot proof. Not optimum but it should still last for years.

 

[Opinionated]

I need to work on my fear of handling nic. What is really killing me with nic storage is i buy low mg nic. LOL i am just too clumsy when handling the stuff i don't trust myself. When i say low i mean 35mg. I am seriously scared of handling high nic. I see folks on here talking about storing 100mg nic or higher and i am just not that brave. I always make a mess when mixing up my nic,pg and vg. I know i could store alot more by buying it in high nic and maybe need to rethink the situation. As far as i know i don't need to freeze the pg or vg or at least not doing so has worked out fine for me.

I want you to know something, to really keep it in mind. We DO have plenty of time. 2022 is a long way away yet, and much can change til then, even for the better. We advocate for a reason, for our good, and much good can happen between now and then. Serious kudos goes out to the vaping advocates and advocacy groups.

That said, do take the time you need to feel comfortable with anything you learn. Nothing is happening tomorrow, so learn what you like and at your own pace. We all have different paces we feel comfortable with, so you do you, for you.

Don't let things get to you. Just breathe and know that feeling comfortable with a thing is important to learning it best. The more you do, the more comfortable you will become, so do what you need to do to keep your comfort level alive and well, and do at your own pace - not other people's.

 

[ScottP]

If, by chance, you are storing PG and VG in the freezer, you do not have to. That will keep far better than nic and there is no reason to think that it won't continue to be readily available in the future. The nic is the key.

A buddy of mine buys his PG/VG by the gallon at his local Tractor Supply shop. Apparently they are used with cows for something or another. So unless they ban cows (and yes some people actually want to) these 2 ingredients should always be available in large quantities. As long as we allow artificial flavors to be added to candies, food, snacks, etc. the base flavorings will always be available. Batteries, wire, cotton are all also non-issues. Regulated mods, tanks/rda's and the actual nic base are the only real points of concern for me.

I need to work on my fear of handling nic. What is really killing me with nic storage is i buy low mg nic. LOL i am just too clumsy when handling the stuff i don't trust myself. When i say low i mean 35mg. I am seriously scared of handling high nic. I see folks on here talking about storing 100mg nic or higher and i am just not that brave. I always make a mess when mixing up my nic,pg and vg. I know i could store alot more by buying it in high nic and maybe need to rethink the situation. As far as i know i don't need to freeze the pg or vg or at least not doing so has worked out fine for me.

If you are concerned about getting it on your hands, you can buy a box of disposable food service plastic gloves for cheap to protect your hands should you spill spill on them. I already have some on hand I bought to use when cutting up extremely hot peppers like habeneros. You could also buy some latex lab gloves that fit better but may cost more.

EDIT: Oh and if you really feel you need more than gloves search amazon for "hazmat suit". They have everything from cheap disposables for about $10 to reusable versions starting at about $150.