Who will deeming effect in the vaping community?

[PJReid]

Quite honestly, the tide seems to be turning. The latest issue of the scientific journal, "tobacco Control," had the results of a very positive study headed by Dr. David T Levy, Department of Oncology, Lombardi Comprehensive Cancer Center, Georgetown University Medical Center.

"Findings Compared with the Status Quo, replacement of cigarette by e-cigarette use over a 10-year period yields 6.6 million fewer premature deaths with 86.7 million fewer life years lost in the Optimistic Scenario. Under the Pessimistic Scenario, 1.6 million premature deaths are averted with 20.8 million fewer life years lost. The largest gains are among younger cohorts, with a 0.5 gain in average life expectancy projected for the age 15 years cohort in 2016.

Conclusions The tobacco control community has been divided regarding the role of e-cigarettes in tobacco control. Our projections show that a strategy of replacing cigarette smoking with vaping would yield substantial life year gains, even under pessimistic assumptions regarding cessation, initiation and relative harm."

If you want to read the research paper, it is open access, so you can. The title is: "Potential deaths averted in USA by replacing cigarettes with e-cigarettes" and is online at Potential deaths averted in USA by replacing cigarettes with e-cigarettes | Tobacco Control

The study has gotten a lot of great coverage in the press. Studies like that one and others that are coming will be very hard for the FDA to ignore. With the extension on the most drastic of Deeming Regulations, a lot of positive information will come out before the date is upon us.

Personally, I am preparing for the worst but with these kinds of studies coming out, the future of vaping is looking much, much brighter.

 

[Beamslider]

I am not so much worried about them taking nicotine off the market. I am far more worried about them deciding it is a cash cow and putting some ridiculous tax per ml on it.

 

[ScottP]

I am not so much worried about them taking nicotine off the market. I am far more worried about them deciding it is a cash cow and putting some ridiculous tax per ml on it.

Yes a huge tax would suck. I got into this primarily for the savings. Taking what I would have spent on cigs and subtracting what I have paid for vaping gear, and supplies I know I have saved at least $8000 in the last 5 years probably higher since that assumes 1 pack a day and sometimes on weekends I would do 2 packs/day. Even then, those numbers don't count savings from my wife's on again off again habit, when she is actually vaping instead of smoking. The good news is taxes have to be known before they can be implemented to give business time to update software and registers to account for it. So when they announce it, I will buy and store enough to last the rest of my life and give the government the finger.

 

[ENAUD]

Yes a huge tax would suck. I got into this primarily for the savings. Taking what I would have spent on cigs and subtracting what I have paid for vaping gear, and supplies I know I have saved at least $8000 in the last 5 years probably higher since that assumes 1 pack a day and sometimes on weekends I would do 2 packs/day. Even then, those numbers don't count savings from my wife's on again off again habit, when she is actually vaping instead of smoking. The good news is taxes have to be known before they can be implemented to give business time to update software and registers to account for it. So when they announce it, I will buy and store enough to last the rest of my life and give the government the finger.

It's amazing how much one can save if they DIY and buy in bulk, vaping can be pretty much a no cost alternative at the day to day cost level. It cost me less than I spend on bottled water to vape to my hearts content, and I vape a lot I used to smoke 2-1/2 packs a day, roughly 12.50 per day cost, times 4-1/2 years...$20,500+ bucks NOT GIVEN to BT and taxes L...O...L

 

[VNeil]

The study has gotten a lot of great coverage in the press. Studies like that one and others that are coming will be very hard for the FDA to ignore. With the extension on the most drastic of Deeming Regulations, a lot of positive information will come out before the date is upon us.

Personally, I am preparing for the worst but with these kinds of studies coming out, the future of vaping is looking much, much brighter.

And remarkably coincides with a change in administration (and associated change in the FDA leadership). Either you believe in that coincidence or you believe that the future of vaping hinges on the 2017 election...

 

[Opinionated]

Batteries will be difficult to tax in the name of vaping safety considering the primary use of these batteries prior to vaping was flashlights and there is a whole community around collecting and using these flashlights (not sure why but to each their own). I am sure they would be up in arms if those kinds of taxes were to even be mentioned.

I don't know if flashlights were ever the primary source of use for 18650's, it might have been up there as hunters and people who live in rural areas (such as I do) depend a lot on good flashlights for safety purposes (we don't have streetlights), but I think rc hobbyists of all types use them primarily. I know a few short years ago the biggest change in rc was people building their own packs out of the exact same types of batteries we use(instead of the previously used lipo batteries) for their quadcopters and such. They use them in their rc cars as well.

On top of that, cameras like the go pro have add ons so they can take 18650's, plus all kinds of camping (or power loss emergency) equipment take 18650's as well (small radios, portable fans etc).

You are correct in that modders, back when people first began modding vaping devices, were using 18650's for the very reason that 18650's were both powerful enough as well as readily available for purchase due to the high popularity of the batteries with hobbyists. Which is why I absolutely agree with you that there will be nothing that happens as far taking 18650 batteries off the general market.

Where I (personally) agree with the poster you were referring to, is the one area where the government can (and has indicated a possible desire to) regulate our batteries, is to regulate our devices by making rules where devices made for vaping would require integrated batteries. If they do so, it would make mech's forever unable to get FDA approval. This is the concern and fear of the mech crowd.

 

[Eskie]

Thanks Opinionated, i don't know why it scares me so bad but it really makes me uncomfortable and for the life of me i can't figure out why. I know how to wear gloves if that need to be done. I don't know i just know i have shaky hands and make a mess when i mix up my pg, vg and nic.

For 100 mg nic, there are a few safety tips. First, don't chug it. Ingestion of large amounts (like a glass or two) will make you feel like crap. Don't let children or pets drink it either, as they have a lower body mass (assuming you're not talking about a 150 lb Rottweiler) as that might represent a significant risk. Don't let it sit on your skin for a half hour. Wipe it off and rinse when you can. Wipe up spills with some paper towels and toss rather than let it sit on your kitchen or bathroom surfaces. Do those common sense things and you have no reason to be excessively concerned for personal safety.

Turning back to deeming regs, the biggest problem was the lack of guidance and clear standards expected by the FDA for approval. That made preparing a PMTA such a crap shoot that few if any manufacturers and vendors could ever achieve approval and require what appeared to be significant expense, again without any idea of what to spend the money on.

The delay to 2022 is primarily to allow for the FDA to develop and publish precisely that, and to not set the bar so ridiculously high that nothing other than a handful of closed systems from BT would survive. So things are looking better, but until those transparent requirements for approval are established, it's still a crap shoot what will and will not remain available on the market.

 

[DaveP]

I need to work on my fear of handling nic. What is really killing me with nic storage is i buy low mg nic. LOL i am just too clumsy when handling the stuff i don't trust myself. When i say low i mean 35mg. I am seriously scared of handling high nic. I see folks on here talking about storing 100mg nic or higher and i am just not that brave. I always make a mess when mixing up my nic,pg and vg. I know i could store alot more by buying it in high nic and maybe need to rethink the situation. As far as i know i don't need to freeze the pg or vg or at least not doing so has worked out fine for me.

100mg nic is something to be respected, but not feared. You should wear surgical gloves when mixing. I wear one on the hand I use to pipette nic from the big bottle into the mixing bottle. 100mg nic is a 10% solution. 1000mg nic is pure nic and is extremely dangerous. It's been said that opening 1000mg nic and breathing the fumes can cause death. Even getting 1000mg nic on your hand can be deadly. It's absorbed quickly.

If you happen to get 100mg nic on your hand, just turn on the sink tap and wash it off. Breathing the fumes from a bottle isn't recommended, but what escapes from an open bottle while mixing isn't toxic. Make sure you do your DIY near a sink so that you can wash your mixing tools and your hands while mixing. If there's an oven hood close by, turn it on if you worry about breathing fumes from the bottle (I don't). It's also a good idea to find a 4" thick foam block about 8" or 10" square that comes in packaging and cut a hole in the center that tightly fits your nic bottle to prevent tip over spills. Precautions are good whether they are necessary or not.

Nic is analogous to Ammonia in hazard levels. Pure 100% Ammonia can be deadly. Like the Nicotine we use household Ammonia is a 10% solution. You can get it on your hands momentarily without serious effects. You just wash it off and continue. That said, gloves should be worn with either of the two. You also need to wear safety glasses or at least regular eyeglasses just in case. We don't want Nic in our eyes.

 

[stols001]

For any spills, I use a baking sheet and keep plenty of (wet and dry) bar mops handy. I'm fairly spillage prone, which is why I do flavors, then nic, then VG. The flavors are easy and I can do them without gloves. The nic is still perfectly easy, but I do wear gloves when handling nic of any percentage over 50%, it's just a nice safety thing. I then put away my nic, remove gloves, clean up everything BUT the VG, which is where I'm going to have the most spillage anyway, because it's viscous, and heavy, but those are the spills I *don't* worry about so much since it's harmless.

Doing my nic all at once in all my mixes (by weight) reduces spillage for me, and it also limits the time I have the nic out, open, and possibly leaving toxic residue. Once I get done with flavors and nic, I clean up thoroughly, then remove my gloves as dealing with VG with my bare hands is less likely to result in spillage (for me) those gloves can get slippery feeling inside and it's a bit harder to grip with them over time.

It's really far more difficult to get nic poisoning than one would think, but caution is always wise in my opinion. There's no reason not to be as safe as you can get, but with that said I know plenty of folks who use no protective equipment at all for 10% nicotine, they simply don't need it. Were I not spill prone, I probably wouldn't wear gloves either. I used a mask a grand total of one time, it became quite evident that was not necessary....

If it helps at all, once you've separated your 100% nic out into smaller bottles (I did mine outside), you are dealing with FAR smaller quantities of nic needed to be poured into beakers or pipetted directly into bottles (which is what I do) and that smaller quantity really also lessens the risk, generally.

I do think having nic on hand for DIY for deeming is a good idea, and it's even more fun to make your own juices in any case (my opinion at least) so I do think this is a great place for a vaper who wants to start preparing for deeming that is still upcoming and in the cards. Even if you never use the nic, it never hurts to be prepared, and folks may find they DO have a desire to make their own mixes (happened to me) thanks to the savings that happen over time, compared to buying storebought nic.

Anna

 

[Rossum]

Deeming will affect all vapers and smokers.... but PG VG and Nic will still be available from traditional health and industrial or AG supply sources. As these products are not limited or originated for vaping....

PG and VG, yes, most likely.

But nic? What else is it used for?

No, nic has not been approved for use as a pesticide in a long time, and when it was, it wasn't in a form usable for e-liquid.

 

[englishmick]

Somehow i get the feeling BT products will still be around regardless.

This might be the only thing we can say with confidence.

 

[Rossum]

I agree and never thought about it that way. I can buy higher nic and just leave it sitting in the freezer..if i need it then it's there and i can figure it out when that time comes, but least it's there.

That was my attitude 3+ years ago. I had no clue about DYI when I started stocking nic. I just knew that I wasn't going to let anyone take the the miracle that is vaping away from me, ever, because I figured I'd be back to smoking in less than a day if I couldn't vape.

I didn't start mixing for quite a while. What finally motivated me to start was the fact that the local B&M wanted to charge me just as much for unflavored juice as for any of their house juices -- $60/120ml! I didn't mind paying that for their house recipes 'cause I really liked some of them, but I didn't see the value in unflavored. Then I did some math and figured out that unflavored would cost me less than $3/120ml if I mixed it myself and came up with a technique that has nearly zero risk of mishaps with the 100mg base.

ETA: My technique documented here.

 

[Rossum]

I, personally, would never store nic base in a plastic bottle, in a freezer...unless that bottle was made by a plastics company to meet specific standards required for use by the scientific and medical fields. Those bottles have to meet rigid specs (which are plainly published), including specs for maximum and minimum storage temps. The regular plastic containers that any/all the nic base I've ever bought comes in...weren't made to meet those standards. All of mine is in glass bottles with poly cone caps.

I don't want to give you a red X, but I disagree. Yes, almost all of mine is in glass, with polycone caps, but there appears to be little (if any) downside to storing it in PET plastic. I discovered this by accident when I found some nic I'd bought 2-1/2 years earlier that I'd forgotten about in the freezer. It was fine. I've now got an experiment going where I'm comparing storage of identical batches of nic in its original PET plastic bottles vs. rebottled in glass. It starts here: Nic Base Storage: Freezer vs. Room Temp Experiment

 

[Rossum]

Once you do, and the wattage goes up, your 28mg and 38mg are going to be like inhaling black pepper.

DIY coils and wicking do not imply an increase in wattage. If someone is comfortable vaping factory coils at low wattage, there's no reason they can't build coils that are entirely suitable to maintain the vaping style to which they have grown accustomed.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Where I (personally) agree with the poster you were referring to, is the one area where the government can (and has indicated a possible desire to) regulate our batteries, is to regulate our devices by making rules where devices made for vaping would require integrated batteries. If they do so, it would make mech's forever unable to get FDA approval. This is the concern and fear of the mech crowd.

And that would be truly unfortunate. Running wind variations on a mechanical is about the fastest most effective way to learn the impact of resistance, pwr, winds, etc. for our builds and dramatically narrow down alternatives towards our personal sweet spot.

Translating clearomizer coils run on variables to small drippers was about one of the most revealing exercises this vaper experienced as a newbie. So to say losing this alternative of true open systems would be unfortunate is gross understatement. The universe of vaping potential is open to anyone with a mechanical and rebuildable in hand.

IMG_1752a

• MacTechVpr
• Aug 24, 2016

And for those contemplating the value of DiY for refining their taste preferences a mechanical is the indispensable set of kitchen tools to complement the mixing flask.

Best of luck.

 

[VNeil]

Where I (personally) agree with the poster you were referring to, is the one area where the government can (and has indicated a possible desire to) regulate our batteries, is to regulate our devices by making rules where devices made for vaping would require integrated batteries. If they do so, it would make mech's forever unable to get FDA approval. This is the concern and fear of the mech crowd.

I am not an EE, nor am I intimately familiar with the details of basic electronic certification, but I cannot believe that a mech mod could get even UL approval (or any other standard electronics approval) and those approvals are far easier to attain than anything that might come out of deeming.

Think about it, you have a potentially "explosive" battery in a circuit with absolutely no built in protection, not even a fuse. In a device designed to run the battery at its CDR (unlike something like a typical flashlight). And even most or all flashlights that I've looked at (that use our batteries) seem to have built in protective circuits. But I welcome any correction on any of this since I am not an expert. I just have a basic engineering sense of what is and isn't "legal" in basic electronics.

 

[VNeil]

That was my attitude 3+ years ago. I had no clue about DYI when I started stocking nic. I just knew that I wasn't going to let anyone take the the miracle that is vaping away from me, ever, because I figured I'd be back to smoking in less than a day if I couldn't vape.

I didn't start mixing for quite a while. What finally motivated me to start was the fact that the local B&M wanted to charge me just as much for unflavored juice as for any of their house juices -- $60/120ml! I didn't mind paying that for their house recipes 'cause I really liked some of them, but I didn't see the value in unflavored. Then I did some math and figured out that unflavored would cost me less than $3/120ml if I mixed it myself and came up with a technique that has nearly zero risk of mishaps with the 100mg base.

ETA: My technique documented here.

In looking at concentrated nic safety, I came up with two possible problems. 1) A refrigerator/freezer fire, which is not uncommon (I had that experience back in the late 70s). but more likely 2) dropping a liter of 100mg or higher glass bottled nic on a tile kitchen floor (or any floor, really). So there is a safety aspect to storing nic in plastic. I'm really not sure what would happen if a liter of 100mg nic ended up splattered all over a kitchen.

And, a glass bottle especially can be very slippery when removed from the freezer. Or it could slide out while rearranging things. Personally I wrap my edit: glass and plastic bottles in a sealed freezer bag, and maybe tape it up to keep it neat and hopefully contain an accidental drop/break/spill.

I keep only one 30ml working bottle of 100mg nic outside the freezer. I have a system of progressive 1 liter -->500ml >250ml >30ml bottles in the freezer. A fresh 250ml bottle is allowed to warm up, then poured into 30ml bottles that are then sealed and refrozen. A 30ml working bottle lasts me about 3 months at my typical usage rate. A dropped 30ml bottle is less likely to break if dropped, and much less of a cleanup problem. And less to spill. The nic also spends a minimal time at room temp.

 

[ENAUD]

In looking at concentrated nic safety, I came up with two possible problems. 1) A refrigerator/freezer fire, which is not uncommon (I had that experience back in the late 70s). but more likely 2) dropping a liter of 100mg or higher glass bottled nic on a tile kitchen floor (or any floor, really). So there is a safety aspect to storing nic in plastic. I'm really not sure what would happen if a liter of 100mg nic ended up splattered all over a kitchen.

And, a glass bottle especially can be very slippery when removed from the freezer. Or it could slide out while rearranging things. Personally I wrap my edit: glass and plastic bottles in a sealed freezer bag, and maybe tape it up to keep it neat and hopefully contain an accidental drop/break/spill.

I keep only one 30ml working bottle of 100mg nic outside the freezer. I have a system of progressive 1 liter -->500ml >250ml >30ml bottles in the freezer. A fresh 250ml bottle is allowed to warm up, then poured into 30ml bottles that are then sealed and refrozen. A 30ml working bottle lasts me about 3 months at my typical usage rate. A dropped 30ml bottle is less likely to break if dropped, and much less of a cleanup problem. And less to spill. The nic also spends a minimal time at room temp.

Very similar to way I handle nic. Long term in 250 and 120 ml Boston rounds, broken down into 50, 30 ml short term bottles, all are double bagged and bubble wrapped, some in boxes, all sitting in plastic square storage stackable's.

 

[VNeil]

Very similar to way I handle nic. Long term in 250 and 120 ml Boston rounds, broken down into 50, 30 ml short term bottles, all are double bagged and bubble wrapped, some in boxes, all sitting in plastic square storage stackable's.

Drooling over your freezer space. I'm doing this in an apartment sized freezer. I really miss my old stand up dedicated freezer in the garage.

 

[ENAUD]

Drooling over your freezer space. I'm doing this in an apartment sized freezer. I really miss my old stand up dedicated freezer in the garage.

At some point my wife said that I needed my own freezer lol, she didn't have any room left for her treats, i.e., food that I cannot eat. So that was my green light to buy a small top open chest. It wasn't that expensive all things considered, and it doubles as a storage for my special diet needs food.