The entitlement generation seems a lot larger than previously thought.
It isnt about entitlement its about standing our ground and not letting them treat us like smokers.
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It isnt about entitlement its about standing our ground and not letting them treat us like smokers.
Thankfully I did have a eGo-C type for an extended stay at a hospital in 2011. That being said I still stealth vaped. I didn't stealth vape because I was aware of any particular rules but because I figured most people would consider it the equivalent of a cigarette. I also decided that avoiding arguing and long discussions was the simpler route.
Today I am better acquainted with the facts regarding vaping versus smoking most people when encountering an e cig/pv unexpectedly tend to draw back to stay clear of the smoke. I find that since I don't use cig-alikes that once their initial reaction subsides they do realize this isn't a cigarette. That doesn't mean they still aren't concerned but there is now an option to open a dialog and educate them.
So, I believe that non smokers still see it as a cigarette and that being stuborn and difficult is more likely to cause laws specific to or including vaping to be the end result.
Today I am better acquainted with the facts regarding vaping versus smoking most people when encountering an e cig/pv unexpectedly tend to draw back to stay clear of the smoke. I find that since I don't use cig-alikes that once their initial reaction subsides they do realize this isn't a cigarette. That doesn't mean they still aren't concerned but there is now an option to open a dialog and educate them.
So, I believe that non smokers still see it as a cigarette and that being stuborn and difficult is more likely to cause laws specific to or including vaping to be the end result.
Its not us being stubborn and difficult. Were the enlightened ones in this situation and unfortunately some people refuse to have an open mind about anything.
I do know one thing for certain, countries werent born, inventions werent created, masterpieces werent painted, by people being meek and hiding.
I do know one thing for certain, countries werent born, inventions werent created, masterpieces werent painted, by people being meek and hiding.
I never ask for permission to vape. I go with the assumption that since it is not lit, does not contain tobacco, and in no other way violates smoking bans that there is no reason to ask permission. I would not ask permission to chew Nicorette gum, so why should this be any different. That said, I am not one to vape inside a mall, at a church, or at Walmart. I would never have smoked there either before the bans. So far, no one has ever told me not to do it although I am sure that day will come. If it does, I will politely put my e cig away and leave the premises never to return.
I would add that I don't give a frig if they treat me like a smoker. It is who I am after all. I have no desire to ever spend any time in a place with militant anti-smokers, so if this "looks like smoking" to them, perhaps I can chase them away by using it. The anti-smokers' denormalization campaign works both ways after all.
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It's not about treating us like smokers. They view us the same anyhow: nicotine-addicts puffing out something into the air that MIGHT hurt them, that has no evidence of harming bystanders, but it definitely "annoys" them nonetheless and "threatens the children." Keep in mind that there is very limited and questionable "evidence" to support that brief exposure to second-hand smoke causes any disease or death to bystanders and absolutely NO evidence that smoke-free tobacco causes harm to anyone (especially bystanders to smoke-free tobacco use; ) yet the ANTZ have managed to get even smoke-free tobacco use banned along with smoking OUTDOORS in some places.
So, it's really about not treating us like ignorant, uneducated, uninformed, gullible, "bad" children AS they've treated smokers. (The distinction being that smokers don't even deserve being treated like smokers, because ANTZ policy has nothing to do with science or health.)
(Just my personal opinion.)
Next to the anti-smokers who I regard as vile excuses for human life, I cannot abide by ex-smokers, current vapors, and even some current smokers who attempt to suck up to the anti's and hide their habit in shame as they cower by the dumpster blowing smoke/vape. Honestly, if you are going to make something a daily habit whether it is smoking or vaping, be an adult and just stop trying to please everyone. As Rick Nelson once wisely said, "you can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself." I would add that I genuinely enjoy annoying anti-smokers. It is so easy, and they are such paranoids.
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People pleasing is a psychological fact of life for many many people, some more so than others. My wife is a huge people pleaser and is just as you describe. I am almost totally opposite of her. ( Guess that's why we're together ). <grin>
I give her the benefit of the doubt though, because in a lot of areas she may not be people pleasing as much as she's just a nicer person than I am. <more grins>
I love people pleasers. In many ways, I am one, or at least I was back before this nonsense with groups of strangers trying to micro-manage my life and habits. It was then that I realized I could not in good conscience try to please a group of people who refuse to accept pleasure as a part of life. That is, after all, the nature of Puritans.
My suggestions: I would start by not equating people with nazis. You're a put-upon ecig user, not a jewish prisoner in a concentration camp. These antis might be uneducated, misguided, even highly devious people with an opposite set of motivations than us, but they don't shovel the dead into ditches. Using this language immediately polarizes both sides into unmoving, dogmatic positions. All I'm saying is ease up on the aggression and you might find an easier path in. I'm saying this as non-confrontational as possible.
Sisters Of St Mary Health Care (Owners of a large number of hospitals and health care facilities in the St. Louis metro area) are vape friendly, even in patient rooms by patients.
My suggestions: I would start by not equating people with nazis. You're a put-upon ecig user, not a jewish prisoner in a concentration camp. These antis might be uneducated, misguided, even highly devious people with an opposite set of motivations than us, but they don't shovel the dead into ditches. Using this language immediately polarizes both sides into unmoving, dogmatic positions. All I'm saying is ease up on the aggression and you might find an easier path in. I'm saying this as non-confrontational as possible.
Well actually nazi stands for more than just what you said. The nazi's were a facist group who wanted to annihilate all that weren't like them. The parallels would be total control and extreme bigotry ( in this case of anything that even reminds one of cigarettes ).
My suggestions: I would start by not equating people with nazis. You're a put-upon ecig user, not a jewish prisoner in a concentration camp. These antis might be uneducated, misguided, even highly devious people with an opposite set of motivations than us, but they don't shovel the dead into ditches. Using this language immediately polarizes both sides into unmoving, dogmatic positions. All I'm saying is ease up on the aggression and you might find an easier path in. I'm saying this as non-confrontational as possible.
First off, I think most people here understand that the nazi reference has to do with the likeness of an over-reaching government controlling people's behavior in the attempt to achieve an unattainable utopia. Not to mention that the Nazi government was the first to persecute smokers with laws based on junk science.
But if you want a reference to killing people, how about the nearly 6 MILLION deaths per year that the WHO says are caused by smoking? The ANTZ and government KNOW that tobacco harm reduction policies would cut that number down by at least 1/2 (assuming not every smoker decides to switch) but they have REFUSED to tell the public the truth for 30 years. At 3 million dead per year for the past 30 years, that makes the ANTZ far more deadly than the Nazis ever were. The ANTZ methods may be less violent but they are no less insidious and deadly.
Mind and behavior control of the population by special interest groups and the government; that leads to the death of millions of a minority group that everyone was taught to hate through the use of junk science. Hmmm, sounds pretty Nazi-ish to me.
(My personal opinion, not CASAA.)
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Respectfully, I didn't expect this type of response from a member of the CASAA board and would think that someone in a public advocacy position could see how using this type of label undermines your ability to effect change in people opposing your viewpoints.
I know my enemies. Calling them "nazis" or not calling them "nazis" on some e-cigarette forum will have absolutely no affect whatsoever on their ability or willingness to change their minds about us. They are hell bent on demonizing us in the same way the Nazis were hell bent on demonizing the Jews, gypsies and whomever else didn't fit their definition of "good." Being nice to them and not exposing them for what they really are is what will do the most harm. (In my PERSONAL opinion. You'll notice that CASAA doesn't "officially" call them anything except bold-faced, hypocritical liars.)
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Personally, I would like to see CASAA get a little more aggressive in their approach at times.
Obviously not to the point of calling them Nazis in official communications, since that won't help get the public on our side.
But I'm sure Kristin is well aware of the boundaries between her personal opinions and what CASAA should provide for public consumption.
But what people need to realize is that there is no "effecting change" in those who want to eliminate electronic cigarettes.
They already know the truth, and are focusing their vast war chests on suppressing that truth.
They need to be exposed in such a way that the public will stop supporting their efforts.
That's the ONLY way we are going to get them to stop their campaign of lies.
One thing is for sure though, CASAA will keep getting my support regardless, because there is no group better equipped to fight for us.
But I wouldn't mind seeing them take the gloves off once in a while.
Obviously not to the point of calling them Nazis in official communications, since that won't help get the public on our side.
But I'm sure Kristin is well aware of the boundaries between her personal opinions and what CASAA should provide for public consumption.
But what people need to realize is that there is no "effecting change" in those who want to eliminate electronic cigarettes.
They already know the truth, and are focusing their vast war chests on suppressing that truth.
They need to be exposed in such a way that the public will stop supporting their efforts.
That's the ONLY way we are going to get them to stop their campaign of lies.
One thing is for sure though, CASAA will keep getting my support regardless, because there is no group better equipped to fight for us.
But I wouldn't mind seeing them take the gloves off once in a while.
They need to be exposed in such a way that the public will stop supporting their efforts.
That's the ONLY way we are going to get them to stop their campaign of lies.
But I wouldn't mind seeing them take the gloves off once in a while.
Let me be clear: we can take the gloves off and be aggressive, even in some ways matching the deviousness of some of the interests we're up against. But you hit the nail on the head when you stated above that we need to get the public supporting our efforts. Without turning the public, e-cigs have no chance. And calling people nazis is not going to get the public on your side, whether it's on this vacuum of a forum or in more public arenas. It's not necessarily the mention of "nazi" on this board, it's the attitude and (lack of) strategy it signifies.
But to those with that attitude, keep throwing out those loaded labels and see how far that garners support from the average joe/josephine, let us know how that works out for you.
edit: I would submit to kristin that the supposed insulated nature of this board is no excuse for engaging in discourse that you wouldn't necessarily do "publicly". It is a public messageboard, and if your enemies are as conniving as you say, I don't think it's a far stretch to imagine them browsing messageboards like this for ammunition, especially quotes from a member of a primary ecig advocacy org.
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You really need to understand the agenda and the mindset of those in tobacco control. Do some research from other sides of the issue. You might change your mind. Calling them NAZIS is an honest appraisal of who these people are and what their intentions are. You can start here, http://www.velvetgloveironfist.com/ Frank Davis | Banging on about the Smoking Ban
Like I said, CASAA doesn't use the term "nazi" and honestly, neither do I normally. You won't find the term used on my personal blog nor CASAA's blog, website or official statements. But that doesn't mean we don't understand the sentiment coming from people who are venting about ANTZ. People who have been dealing with ANTZ for the past 3+ years.
We thought the same way as you in the beginning. That we need to be nice and get them to like us. That we need to separate vapers from smokers. We tried. But over the years, we have discovered that no matter how nice we are, no matter how reasonable we try to be, no matter what supporting evidence we get, no matter how respectful we are - the ANTZ continue to use every trick in the book to turn the public against us. We are called "nicotine addicts justifying their nasty habit." We are called "disgusting smokers trying to circumvent smoking bans that are meant to protect the innocent." We are called "shills for the tobacco industry." There is just no way to win their respect or get them to "listen." The public is hearing all of this negative stuff coming from the ANTZ about us and we continue to play nice and treat the ANTZ like they deserve our respect. How can we possibly win the public that way? We are basically telling the public, "Those who oppose tobacco harm reduction deserve our respect and their policies should be followed, but like us anyhow."
To that end, we finally set our Science Director, Dr. Carl Phillips, loose to call a spade a spade and liars "liars" at Anti-THR Lie of the Day | giving the truth a chance to put its boots on . I don't think Dr. Phillips has ever used the "nazi" term outright on this new blog, but he certainly doesn't pull any punches. CASAA will remain professional in the public arena, but the e-cigarette community (especially new members who are unfamiliar with the battles fought and lessons learned before them) need to know that what we are dealing with IS truly a Nazi mentality and the results of allowing it have been the same - millions of unnecessary deaths caused by the organizations people have trusted to protect them. So, in this venue, I personally think "nazi" is quite apropos.
We thought the same way as you in the beginning. That we need to be nice and get them to like us. That we need to separate vapers from smokers. We tried. But over the years, we have discovered that no matter how nice we are, no matter how reasonable we try to be, no matter what supporting evidence we get, no matter how respectful we are - the ANTZ continue to use every trick in the book to turn the public against us. We are called "nicotine addicts justifying their nasty habit." We are called "disgusting smokers trying to circumvent smoking bans that are meant to protect the innocent." We are called "shills for the tobacco industry." There is just no way to win their respect or get them to "listen." The public is hearing all of this negative stuff coming from the ANTZ about us and we continue to play nice and treat the ANTZ like they deserve our respect. How can we possibly win the public that way? We are basically telling the public, "Those who oppose tobacco harm reduction deserve our respect and their policies should be followed, but like us anyhow."
To that end, we finally set our Science Director, Dr. Carl Phillips, loose to call a spade a spade and liars "liars" at Anti-THR Lie of the Day | giving the truth a chance to put its boots on . I don't think Dr. Phillips has ever used the "nazi" term outright on this new blog, but he certainly doesn't pull any punches. CASAA will remain professional in the public arena, but the e-cigarette community (especially new members who are unfamiliar with the battles fought and lessons learned before them) need to know that what we are dealing with IS truly a Nazi mentality and the results of allowing it have been the same - millions of unnecessary deaths caused by the organizations people have trusted to protect them. So, in this venue, I personally think "nazi" is quite apropos.
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