WISMEC Reuleaux RX200 TC

[suspectK]

I would love to tell you that if you follow so and so steps, your batteries will last forever. But unfortunately making batteries last forever is currently impossible. Either the number of recharges is going to do them in, or time itself will. And as the number of recharges and/or time takes its toll, they lose capacity. Once they degrade enough where you have to carry more and more batteries with you since they won't even last an hour, it all seems really futile to me. Just spend 6 bucks and get a new battery.

I agree with your post I've quoted. However, that wasn't the point I was arguing....it was in regards into the charging rates of the batteries.

You can't make them last forever, but you can get more out of their lifespan...without having to throw them out early due to excessive sagging. Yes, every battery has a set number of cycles for a life-span, but you'll notice more voltage sag the closer you get to the number of cycles the cell is rated for by pushing current into them at a higher rate, when compared to the same batch of cells charged at lower rates.

Yeah, if you're in a rush, charging them at their peak rate isn't going to be noticed, but doing it everyday will, quicker than if you were to charge them at a lower rate..

Yeah, batteries are cheap, and so is everything else involved with vaping(if you're not an authentic mod and atty maniac), but all that adds up. With the rx200, you need 3 batteries to run it, and it's wise to have at least one other set. Both those sets burn out at the same time, since they're probably being discharged and charged the same way. That $30 is added to what is on your vape-needs list..and I'm sure there's a ton of other stuff on that list too.

So all I'm saying is you CAN get a longer life-span(i.e. get the actual cycle rating of the cells without issues/a dramatic voltage drop/sag increase), and that could be something that some, if not many, would want to consider.

 

[ShamrockPat]

I've got the DNA200 and the RX200. LG-HG2's in the DNA, and Sony VTC5's in the RX. I rotate (battery position within each mod) and charge them both at 500ma in an Efest Luc 4 bay charger. Each lasts just under 3 days before needing to recharge, and during that time I'll just use the other mod.

China - not sure if you've found and used the steam-engine dot org site, but it'll answer so many of your questions on everything from batteries to wire to coil building.

 

[BillW50]

So all I'm saying is you CAN get a longer life-span(i.e. get the actual cycle rating of the cells without issues/a dramatic voltage drop/sag increase), and that could be something that some, if not many, would want to consider.

I use to believe this too. But I have logged my lithium batteries since the 90's. And I have found no longevity added by charging less than 1C. Sure you can charge your 18650 at 100ma if you want (it will take 25 hours), but it will last the same as charging them at 1A (2.5 hours). Only when you start charging at upwards of 3C and higher does this start to effect the battery life.

And during my experiments charging batteries faster than one hour (which is greater than 1C), there is really little payoff. As the better battery chargers will slowly increase to the desired charge rate which could take 5 to 10 minutes. Then you have that tail end of the charge which takes like another 15 minutes of low milliamps charging. So you don't gain much by pushing it faster. For example, the fastest I charged an 18650 was at 4A. But even at 4A it still takes about 35 minutes. So those 3 extra amps doesn't seem worth it to me.

 

[KenD]

It's not just the RX200 but all of Joyetech's family of companies even down to the lowly eLeaf iStick 10w is named as an "accused" model... LOL.

I'm no lawyer by any means, but reading through the documents they almost make it sound like they invented vaping. I was surprised to learn that Evolv only has 19 employees working on various DNA boards!
"Evolv and its inventor-owned manufacturing licensee employ a staff of 19 educated and skilled workers at their design, manufacturing, and assembly facilities in Ohio."

Here's a link to the filed documents
https://search.rpxcorp.com/litigation_documents/11891651

Evolv should sue Vapor Flask/Vape Forward as well if they want to be consistent even in a slight way. The boards in the new VF mods are the same as in the newer isticks/wismecs/joyetechs.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

 

[suspectK]

I use to believe this too. But I have logged my lithium batteries since the 90's. And I have found no longevity added by charging less than 1C. Sure you can charge your 18650 at 100ma if you want (it will take 25 hours), but it will last the same as charging them at 1A (2.5 hours). Only when you start charging at upwards of 3C and higher does this start to effect the battery life.

And during my experiments charging batteries faster than one hour (which is greater than 1C), there is really little payoff. As the better battery chargers will slowly increase to the desired charge rate which could take 5 to 10 minutes. Then you have that tail end of the charge which takes like another 15 minutes of low milliamps charging. So you don't gain much by pushing it faster. For example, the fastest I charged an 18650 was at 4A. But even at 4A it still takes about 35 minutes. So those 3 extra amps doesn't seem worth it to me.

If you've put in the work, and you have done it for almost 20 years, I suppose I'm inclined to believe you. Do you have any data you can share? With testing of the cells documented as well? I suppose in the 90's there wasn't much great gear to choose from for that, like now...but Dranetz were around in some form in the mid-90's, or taking pictures of a scope..lol. If I do bench tests on batteries, I would use older load banks anyways(I can confirm everything that is involved with the test...not just what a display/computer is telling me). I'm only 27, but in most cases, I appreciate the older equipment more than everything dependent on a computer to operate, or have one of their own integrated in the equipment.

If I was still at work, I would go in the lab and experiment, but alas, that is not where I am in life at this time...and I don't know if I'd dedicate 20 years to this technology at this point in time. I'm not saying lithium is going anywhere, just the medium we're using it in with these broad range of cell types...if we start living in a better world, but we're still using fossil fuels as our primary energy source, so I'm probably just being a dreamer with the statements after this paragraph's first sentence.

I personally wouldn't charge my cells at 2 Amps, but I do mostly charge my cells at 1 Amp. I neglected to include that in my response, sorry for that.

I'm due for a new charger though..I don't know how much more I can take of my customized 3-bay nitecore i4.

 

[xtugap]

Incorrect. You're doing your calculations by ohms and watts which is incorrect for regulated mods.

To accurately find out the amps you're drawing, it is I=P/V (Amps = Watts / Volts) for regulated mods. Parallel and series both give the same effect, but in different ways. With them in series, the batteries' voltages are combined which means that you will draw less amps (The more volts you have, the less amps you need).

Let's say you're running a RX200 at 50 watts and 5.10v, that would equal 9.8 amps.
This is a good link explaining more in depth what I am talking about:
PSA: You Don't Calculate Current Draw on Regulated Mods Like You Do on Mech Mods • /r/electronic_cigarette

Wrong, both wrong. Both are calculate the Amp applied to the atomizer. And that's the right way to calculate for a mech mod not to regulated devices. The best and safe way is the cutoff V (voltage) of the mod ~ 3.2V multiply for the number of the batteries of the mod (in this case 3X3.2V=9.6V). And the max power of the mod 200w. So 200/9.6v =~20.9A more or less. And now apply the efficiency of the board witch is 10% I think. So 20.9X1.1= 22.9A at 200W and don't matter if your coil is 10ohms or 0.05ohms, regulated its not the same as unregulated.
So 50W on a 0.5ohm or other coil is between 5, 6A not 20.
Regards

PS: I think you can check on steam engine website, and don't confuse voltage and amp applied to the atty and the amps applied to the battery.

 

[Roadtrip635]

Evolv should sue Vapor Flask/Vape Forward as well if they want to be consistent even in a slight way. The boards in the new VF mods are the same as in the newer isticks/wismecs/joyetechs.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

Actually, I don't think that would work since those are Joyetech's boards inside those and can claim they purchased those boards in good faith. I guess they could go after just about any company that has their own boards, at least by what they claim in the suit.

 

[cobalt327]

Well, for evolv's sake I hope they have a better law team than whoever penned the lawsuit- reads like it was done by a Phoenix drop out.

 

[Jim_ MDP]

Well, for evolv's sake I hope they have a better law team than whoever penned the lawsuit- reads like it was done by a Phoenix drop out.

You caught that one sentence somewhere around the third or fourth page?

I got through all 24 pages and forgot to go back and look at it again, and I haven't reloaded the brief to re-read it... but damn.

 

[BillW50]

If you've put in the work, and you have done it for almost 20 years, I suppose I'm inclined to believe you. Do you have any data you can share? With testing of the cells documented as well? I suppose in the 90's there wasn't much great gear to choose from for that, like now...but Dranetz were around in some form in the mid-90's, or taking pictures of a scope..lol. If I do bench tests on batteries, I would use older load banks anyways(I can confirm everything that is involved with the test...not just what a display/computer is telling me). I'm only 27, but in most cases, I appreciate the older equipment more than everything dependent on a computer to operate, or have one of their own integrated in the equipment.

If I was still at work, I would go in the lab and experiment, but alas, that is not where I am in life at this time...and I don't know if I'd dedicate 20 years to this technology at this point in time. I'm not saying lithium is going anywhere, just the medium we're using it in with these broad range of cell types...if we start living in a better world, but we're still using fossil fuels as our primary energy source, so I'm probably just being a dreamer with the statements after this paragraph's first sentence.

I personally wouldn't charge my cells at 2 Amps, but I do mostly charge my cells at 1 Amp. I neglected to include that in my response, sorry for that.

I'm due for a new charger though..I don't know how much more I can take of my customized 3-bay nitecore i4.

Yeah getting all of that data together would be tough. Some are in printouts, tapes, 5 1/4 floppies, 3.5 floppies, etc. I just checked what Mooch had up about this in his blog.

Charging at a slower rate is better, to a point. Most of our 18650 batteries have a "standard" charge rate of 1.0A-1.5A and a "rapid" charge rate of up to 4A. Charging at 0.5A might help extend the life of your batteries a bit but if the batteries are not getting warm at 1.0A then that's a good compromise between battery life and convenience. Going down to 0.375A or 0.25A won't help much versus charging at 0.5A.

Mooch's blog - General Battery Stuff | E-Cigarette Forum

Yeah that doesn't help much. But I have noticed when charging and there is no increase in temperature of the battery, the amount of charge isn't shortening the life of the battery. Just the other day I played with charging one 18650 at 1.7A. And that had taken an hour and a half to charge (it stayed at room temperature). And I could have charged that same battery in 2 hours at 1A.

 

[chinacatsunflower-]

Wrong, both wrong. Both are calculate the Amp applied to the atomizer. And that's the right way to calculate for a mech mod not to regulated devices. The best and safe way is the cutoff V (voltage) of the mod ~ 3.2V multiply for the number of the batteries of the mod (in this case 3X3.2V=9.6V). And the max power of the mod 200w. So 200/9.6v =~20.9A more or less. And now apply the efficiency of the board witch is 10% I think. So 20.9X1.1= 22.9A at 200W and don't matter if your coil is 10ohms or 0.05ohms, regulated its not the same as unregulated.
So 50W on a 0.5ohm or other coil is between 5, 6A not 20.
Regards

PS: I think you can check on steam engine website, and don't confuse voltage and amp applied to the atty and the amps applied to the battery.

The wording in this is quite all over the place, I'm not entirely sure in certain parts, of what you are saying and I don't believe that you are correct either. However, my knowledge is limited and is a gathering of many different forums, battery websites, and blogs.

Could someone else clarify if I was in fact wrong? If I am incorrectly calculating my amp draw on my mod, I would most definitely like to be aware! Perhaps you could help again, @BillW50

 

[pevinsghost]

The wording in this is quite all over the place, I'm not entirely sure in certain parts, of what you are saying and I don't believe that you are correct either. However, my knowledge is limited and is a gathering of many different forums, battery websites, and blogs.

Could someone else clarify if I was in fact wrong? If I am incorrectly calculating my amp draw on my mod, I would most definitely like to be aware! Perhaps you could help again, @BillW50

I had to go back a couple pages to see what you posted, and you were doing good up until you have an example.

The example you have was running a reuleaux at 50 watts and 5.1volts.

There's a couple minor things wrong with this:
1) You don't set the voltage on an RX200, you set the wattage and it figures out the voltage to apply. At 50 Watts, the rx would use 5.1 volts only for a 0.52 ohm coil... but...
2) it doesn't matter what the voltage applied by the mod to the coil. To find amperage drawn from the battery, it's the wattage selected divided by the voltage level on the battery side of the mod. This will range in a 3 battery mod from 12.6V (4.2Vx3) down to 9.6V (3.2Vx3).

Also, for safety sake, you always want to calculating using the voltage that will result in the largest current draw. In regulated, this happens when voltage is at its lowest, so 9.6V in a 3 battery set up.

50 watts divided by 9.6V is a max current of 5.21 amps.

The average draw will be lower, 50W/11.1V= 4.5A, but when calculating to find what's safe, max draw is what you want to use.

 

[chinacatsunflower-]

I had to go back a couple pages to see what you posted, and you were doing good up until you have an example.

The example you have was running a reuleaux at 50 watts and 5.1volts.

There's a couple minor things wrong with this:
1) You don't set the voltage on an RX200, you set the wattage and it figures out the voltage to apply. At 50 Watts, the rx would use 5.1 volts only for a 0.52 ohm coil... but...
2) it doesn't matter what the voltage applied by the mod to the coil. To find amperage drawn from the battery, it's the wattage selected divided by the voltage level on the battery side of the mod. This will range in a 3 battery mod from 12.6V (4.2Vx3) down to 9.6V (3.2Vx3).

Also, for safety sake, you always want to calculating using the voltage that will result in the largest current draw. In regulated, this happens when voltage is at its lowest, so 9.6V in a 3 battery set up.

50 watts divided by 9.6V is a max current of 5.21 amps.

The average draw will be lower, 50W/11.1V= 4.5A, but when calculating to find what's safe, max draw is what you want to use.

So I was using the voltage applied to the coil which is what is displayed on the OLED and not the batteries' voltage? Which means even at 120 watts which is the highest I can take my coils, at the lowest voltage before it cuts off I'd only be pulling 12.5 amps on the batteries?

 

[pevinsghost]

So I was using the voltage applied to the coil which is what is displayed on the OLED and not the batteries' voltage? Which means even at 120 watts which is the highest I can take my coils, at the lowest voltage before it cuts off I'd only be pulling 12.5 amps on the batteries?

You got it.

Wattage selected divided by lowest total battery voltage.

The mod will stop when any one of the batteries gets low, so it won't actually ever get down to 9.6V, but it's a perfect number to calculate with since it leaves wiggle room for mod inefficiencies and other factors.

The mod may refuse to fire at certain wattage for certain resistances because there is a minimum and maximum voltage and current on the coil end of the mod too, but the mod will do that automatically.

 

[chinacatsunflower-]

You got it.

Wattage selected divided by lowest total battery voltage.

The mod will stop when any one of the batteries gets low, so it won't actually ever get down to 9.6V, but it's a perfect number to calculate with since it leaves wiggle room for mod inefficiencies and other factors.

The mod may refuse to fire at certain wattage for certain resistances because there is a minimum and maximum voltage and current on the coil end of the mod too, but the mod will do that automatically.

So this basically means I was being overly safe when I bought VTC4's instead of the 5's?
Welp, a $30 mistake I won't make again! Thank you a lot for elaborating on the other person's post.

 

[Jim_ MDP]

So this basically means I was being overly safe when I bought VTC4's instead of the 5's?
Welp, a $30 mistake I won't make again! Thank you a lot for elaborating on the other person's post.

Not a bad mistake, to be honest.
60w per 20A 18650 is getting rough, even with good cells.
Do the math, it's 20A at 3.0v (I use that vs. 3.2v for that little bit of extra safety headroom).
But those 4s are strong 20A cells.
Running them gently will at least slightly increase their life.
And you may end up popping them in a 150w mod before they wear out*.

*I haven't been over 100w in months... I don't know how you vape.

 

[KenD]

The wording in this is quite all over the place, I'm not entirely sure in certain parts, of what you are saying and I don't believe that you are correct either. However, my knowledge is limited and is a gathering of many different forums, battery websites, and blogs.

Could someone else clarify if I was in fact wrong? If I am incorrectly calculating my amp draw on my mod, I would most definitely like to be aware! Perhaps you could help again, @BillW50

The calculations are correct. Resistance doesn't matter, and the amp load per battery is the same in parallel and series setups. For a given wattage, on regulated devices.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

 

[haleysdadda]

So this basically means I was being overly safe when I bought VTC4's instead of the 5's?
Welp, a $30 mistake I won't make again! Thank you a lot for elaborating on the other person's post.

OK I don't understand why you wouldn't want to be overly safe! Why not be as safe as possible? To me any extra money spent to be as safe as I can possibly be is worth it! I bought my LG HG2s from a local B&M that I know the owner of because I trust her & definately paid more for the piece of mind! To me saving money by DIYing the things I can make myself makes more sense!

 

[BillW50]

I personally wouldn't charge my cells at 2 Amps, but I do mostly charge my cells at 1 Amp. I neglected to include that in my response, sorry for that.

I'm due for a new charger though..I don't know how much more I can take of my customized 3-bay nitecore i4.

Here is an excellent scientific video about why lithium batteries fail. He is mostly talking about electric vehicles (EV) batteries which uses hundreds or maybe thousands of 18650 batteries. But we use those same batteries. And the jist of the video says to keep the temperatures low and keep the voltages low. As this keeps the parasitic activity going on with the plates (which ends up destroying the battery) at a minimum. Btw, I love those XTAR VC4 chargers if you are looking for one.

 

[Completely Average]

Prior art is no longer a defense for patent cases.

That was a change in law that was recently passed. The us is now a "first to file" as opposed to a first to invent.

Sorry for digging up a week + old post, but this is categorically false. The "First to File" clause only has a 1 year grace period. That means that the "First to file" only applies if the Prior Art was disclosed a year or less before the filing date, and that disclosure was either made by the inventor or was made by someone who had access to the inventor's material.

If you base your invention on technology that is years or decades old, Prior Art still stands as a legitimate defense. If you need a case example of this, Apple lost a lawsuit against Samsung just last month because of Prior Art.

February 26, 2016 to be precise.

http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/opinions-orders/15-1171.Opinion.2-24-2016.1.PDF

Here's the specific ruling...

A patent is invalid for obviousness “if the differences
between the subject matter sought to be patented and the
prior art are such that the subject matter as a whole
would have been obvious at the time the invention was
made to a person having ordinary skill in the art to which
said subject matter pertains.”
35 U.S.C. § 103(a)
(pre
-
America
Invents
Act);
see also KSR Int’l Co. v. Teleflex,
Inc.
, 550 U.S. 398 (2007)

And this is where Evolv is going to lose their case. Prior Art existed. All Evolv "invented" was a digital voltage regulator. Similar systems have been in use in other devices since the 1980s. A very simple example would be a digital light dimmer where you can select the specific wattage a light bulb receives to achieve a desired brightness. Many of them have a user interface that is nearly identical to Evolv's and the functionality is almost identical as well. This becomes obvious when you consider that none of Evolv's chips are actually designed and manufactured by Evolve. They used pre-existing off the shelf components to make their voltage regulators and simply wrote the software interface and algorithm to make it work the way they wanted. Their solution to regulate the power output of an ecig mod was obvious.


It's going to be hard for Evolv to convince a court that this:

Is in no way related to or based off this: