Tobacco extraction using heated Ethanol

[Bagazo]

What about bringing water to 200 and adding? You'd be able to macerate longer with the pasteurization.

Should work. Don't know what effect that would have on overall flavor.

Plus the heat would help pull more from the leaf.

Honestly I think people on here have mistaken "extracting" with "ageing".

I'm of the opinion that the flavors that people think have been "extracted" months down the road are a product of chemical reactions and not something being drawn out of the nooks and cranies of the leaf. Especially since the leaf is usually cut or shredded into small pieces.

 

[Exchaner]

No PGA, water only.

That makes sense since adding PGA after water will not accomplish a thing. Curious to know if you have actually compared results between water and PGA.

 

[aceswired]

Should work. Don't know what effect that would have on overall flavor.


Honestly I think people on here have mistaken "extracting" with "ageing".

I'm of the opinion that the flavors that people think have been "extracted" months down the road are a product of chemical reactions and not something being drawn out of the nooks and cranies of the leaf. Especially since the leaf is usually cut or shredded into small pieces.

I don't think anyone confuses the two. We're pulling organic matter from the leaves. Things like temp and time affect what we're pulling and how much. Nobody is saying that extracting = matuering (although heat does accelerate that process). Maturation involves things like oxidation and esterfication. But what you pull in the first place determines what the potential is down the road.

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[Bagazo]

I don't think anyone confuses the two.

Maybe not you but, others do.

I agree that what you extract, which is affected by heat, time and solvent and/or solvents used make a difference. Even keeping things on the leaf will give different results but, it isn't because it takes a couple months to "draw the flavors out", as it is sometimes described here.

Personally, flavor is secondary to me. I am after the alkaloids and NETs are lopsided towards the flavor side anyway. I was actually glad to get rid of a lot of the flavor. It being air dried tobacco didn't help any.

I really just wanted to show what I was able to do with water and a freezer. It was over a year ago and I let it drop by the wayside.

One thing that I will point out is that, while I took the lightest portion I could, you could always draw a little further down to get progressively darker and presumably more flavorful fractions.

 

[Bagazo]

That makes sense since adding PGA after water will not accomplish a thing.

Actually, adding PGA and freezing should cause sugars to fall out. At least that is the theory.

Curious to know if you have actually compared results between water and PGA.

The only result that mattered to me was the sticky residue left when I concentrated.

Like I said in the post above, flavor is not my main objective.

 

[aceswired]

Sorry, never considered that some aren't after the flavor.

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[Bagazo]

Sorry, never considered that some aren't after the flavor.

No need for that, I did sort of jump in with something out of left field.

I really should repeat, take pics and give it a thread of its own.

 

[Exchaner]

Actually, adding PGA and freezing should cause sugars to fall out. At least that is the theory.

Hmmm.. I don't know about that. I may have to try it for myself. Is there a link where I could read up on the subject?

 

[Bagazo]

Hmmm.. I don't know about that. May have to try it for myself. Is there a link where I could read up on the subject?

I remember someone posting about it around here but can't seem to find it.

There is this http://www4.mpbio.com/ecom/docs/proddata.nsf/(webtds2)/821713 which shows the solubility of sucrose in water at 25ºC is 1g/0.5ml and ethanol 1g/170ml.

 

[Exchaner]

The only cause I can think of for sugars to freeze out would be if they altered the freezing point of alcohol. But then the entire mixture would freeze - not just parts of it.

 

[Bagazo]

Nothing on that sheet indicates a freezing point for Sucralose (if that is even possible.) The only cause I can think of for sugars to freeze would be if they altered the freezing point of alcohol. But then the entire mixture would freeze - not just parts of it.

Not sucralose but sucrose.

It has nothing to do with the freezing point of sucrose. Actually it is already a solid at room temperature.

What it shows is that every ml of water at room temp can dissolve 2 grams of sugar. Any sugar above that amount will not dissolve and will fall to the bottom of the container.

Add the same 2 grams of sugar to, say, 5ml of ethanol and it will only be able to dissovle 0.03g while the rest, 1.97g will sink to the bottom.

 

[Exchaner]

Sorry, sucrose (don't know the difference anyway....) Of course you are talking about saturation points, which we already know goes down with cooler temps. I doubt however if the amount is that significant. Even if significant, why not try it with water instead of PGA, at just above freezing point.

 

[Bagazo]

Sorry, sucrose (don't know the difference anyway....)

Sucrose is plain table sugar and sucralose is Splenda.

Of course you are talking about saturation points, which we already know goes down with cooler temps. I doubt however if the amount is that significant. Even if significant, why not try it with water instead of PGA.

The amount with pure ethanol is very significant. The example I gave above shows a 98.5% reduction in sugar.

You kinda lost me. Why not try what with water?

I will take stab at it and assume you meant reduce sugars. Well, I just saw a chart with the solubility of sucrose at 0ºC at 1.75g/ml. That is still way much more than ethanol's 0.006 g/ml at room temp. Unless there is a spot between that and a normal household freezer's temp of -18ºC, where sugar drops like crazy out of water I am not seeing it.

In any case,the way to go might be to use a water/ethanol mixture with a high enough ethanol content so things don't solidify but sugar drops out. Could be something as low as an 80 proof spirit.

 

[Exchaner]

You're right, water by itself is difficult to manage near freezing temp anyway ...

The difference in the numbers you noted above is huge. I didn't think it was that much. It seems alcohol has the edge by dissolving less sugars, and just the reverse with oily agents.

 

[Bagazo]

With the kind of numbers you noted above, it seems alcohol has the edge by dissolving less sugars, but not with waxy/oily agents.

Right, the thing is that we can do both. It just takes a little more time.

Personally I like water first, leave all the wax and oils behind. The effect on flavor? I have no idea.

Second step, freeze filter with an ethanol/water mix. Dropped wax and oil in the first, drop sugars in the second.

Crud will propably still build, who knows what we haven't taken into account.

 

[Exchaner]

If you ever start a new thread on water extraction, it would be a nice complement to this one.

 

[aceswired]

It's not that they're freezing, it's that they're falling out of suspension, at least in theory.

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[Str8vision]

I extracted a pack of Natural American Spirit cigarettes, the one that has Perique added (black box). I believe this is the tobacco NET.com uses to make its "Speaking Spirit".

Processed for 12 hours @ 170F and allowed 1 hour for natural cooling before separating the extract from tobacco. The extract has a strong distinct straw/hay aroma like most Virginia dominant blends do. It has a light to medium brown color, is quite translucent and looks like a jar of tea. 36 hours @ -10F, freeze filtered and returned to the freezer for another 24 hours but nothing else fell out of the extract. Ended up with just over 100ml which I heated for 1 hour @ 150F reducing it by around 75%. Ended up with 25ml after final filtration. I mixed three drops in with 3ml of Charlie Noble's "Tripoli" and wow, this has a nice tobacco kick, perhaps from the Perique. It's a strong vibrant, clean tobacco flavor although not very complex. I'm going to mix some straight without any secondary flavorings just to see what the extract tastes like on its own. I suspect it will mimic a full strength cigarette but time will tell.

 

[blobofblubber]

hi ppl. new to this forum. basically joined so i could get in on this thread. ive been a long time lurker of the n.e.t. section.
im currently doing the heated ethanol extration method and can i ask when heating it will the water evaporating get into the extract if i leave my cap too loose? ive been seeing some condesation on the cap

 

[Exchaner]

You shouldn't have to leave your cap too loose; just enough to allow the vapors to escape.