I just hope that we are holding ALL of our representatives to task over this.
Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!
- Thread starter Oliver
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I try not to quote what I'm not responding to.
I thought I was very clear and logical.
You know what you posted as do I.
I didn't edit a single letter of what I quoted.
My point still remains.
1) No flavor is GRAS for inhalation.
2) Since they're intended for food, I guarantee there's trade secrets.
3) WTA could be chemically analyzed to meet AEMSA standards.
So...
4) The B.S. about divulging trade secrets is a fallacy, a ruse.
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I admit I haven't followed this particular fight, but if the manufacturer were to submit chemical analysis to AEMSA are you saying they still wouldn't accept it?
Again, I don't necessarily agree with adopting AEMSA standards as they are, it's a trade group and I've always believed that manufacturers should be free to choose whether or not they want to be members.
My point has been, if these are to be the actual industry standards, I don't see why the manufacturers couldn't get WTA approved. If AEMSA has some other unspecified reservations against WTA, that is a separate matter. I'm just going by the reasoning they list on their site.
P.S. The bit about the quoting was about the fact that you left out the sentence in which I point out that GRAS is not in regards to inhalation.
I'm so loving that comment.
Once you get a window into the "process" you can never be the same.
For the win!
That's kind of how I always felt about it.
I'm saying their argument against WTA is arbitrary b.s. that excludes that possibility the way it's written.
Not that it's not a work around.
But that ANY flavor concentrate that's accepted via AEMSA standards is evidence of said arbitrary b.s..
As despite being GRAS for consumption, they're not.
1) GRAS for inhalation
2) made to pass a chemical analysis
Or
3) asked to divulge industry secrets
If AEMSA asked for this level of scrutiny of our beloved flavors they'd cease to exist.
Well...
Unless their standards are made law.
At which point they're just as free to scrutinize and eliminate flavor concentrates by that very same criteria.
Which I believe is just as likely, if not more, as WTA divulging their secrets to stay in the market.
You know... in this market where the only thing certain is the brands we've come to know, love and depend on are closing their doors for good...
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I agree, it's completely arbitrary. Just discussing to see if this is something that could be turned into a viable solution. Any attempt to set standards without information that would directly impact what those standards should be is arbitrary.
We don't know what needs to be kept out of e-liquid, if anything, because we have no data that anything that has been put into e-liquid is actually harmful to the extent that it needs to be regulated.
However, much of the community itself is asking for some form of standards, so I don't think there's any way we can avoid it.
And there's the rub.
"Some form"
"Asking for"
1) Clear, unwavering mission statement.
2) Define goals.
3) Switch from defense to offense.
4) Demand, attack, repeat.
This is disgusting and embarrassing at best.
Backstabbing and deadly at worst.
I wish I were in a position to volunteer my time. I really do.
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It's never been about the object but the principle.
Government should not control, compel or dissuade production or commerce. We should know better than this as Americans. Millions have already paid the ultimate price for it.
Good luck.
Me too, I really do, but my "contribution" is limited to pockets of 1-? minutes in between other tasks, that can't be scheduled.
Finding agreement on what vaping regulation SHOULD look like is a herculean task. Some vapers would be perfectly happy with the deeming, if it had the grandfather date change. Most people don't know what they actually want. Personally, I don't think there needs to be much other than make sure what you say you're giving me is actually what you're giving me, such as accuracy in nic content, the rest is covered by existing non vape specific laws.
Of course I'm the weirdo who thinks there should actually be a science based reason to greatly inconvenience one age group in order to block out another age group.
I've always been of the opinion that we do a damn fine job of overseeing ourselves.
The nic scandal about 5 years ago, the diacetyl issue, food coloring, mods that didn't have vent holes. Because of us and no one else, these issues were fixed....within our own community!
We are constantly checking ourselves to try to be as safe as possible.
We have Mooch that takes it upon himself to test batteries to make sure that they are what they say they are. Vendors do get wind when we get ....... They also adjust to make sure to have reputable stock. Those that don't... they don't last long.
Kurt is our resident chemist. He's the one that brought to light that a company was not being careful about how much nic was actually in his liquids and they were horribly mislabeled. Someone was suspicious and sent a bottle to Kurt to be tested.
It didn't take very long before things started happening.
If you think government will act faster... I got waterfront property in the desert for sale....
Think about how many bad things happen before a recall is issued. Especially by the FDA (think Chantix).
Well damn....stepping off my soapbox now.
The nic scandal about 5 years ago, the diacetyl issue, food coloring, mods that didn't have vent holes. Because of us and no one else, these issues were fixed....within our own community!
We are constantly checking ourselves to try to be as safe as possible.
We have Mooch that takes it upon himself to test batteries to make sure that they are what they say they are. Vendors do get wind when we get ....... They also adjust to make sure to have reputable stock. Those that don't... they don't last long.
Kurt is our resident chemist. He's the one that brought to light that a company was not being careful about how much nic was actually in his liquids and they were horribly mislabeled. Someone was suspicious and sent a bottle to Kurt to be tested.
It didn't take very long before things started happening.
If you think government will act faster... I got waterfront property in the desert for sale....
Think about how many bad things happen before a recall is issued. Especially by the FDA (think Chantix).
Well damn....stepping off my soapbox now.
The Democratic party is making a HUGE mistake crowing about giving vapors the shaft. They need to realize that ADULT americans are really getting sick of being baby sat. We do not need more of the nanny state than we already have. Over my lifetime it has just gotten increasingly worse.
Yes and no. The "vape community" and the vendors that serve the community have a very good relationship, even though things like diacetyl and food coloring aren't known to be problems, the response has been that there are options without those for people who want them. There's also a whole sector of vaping that pays no attention to us at all, and they're doing just fine too.
In reality, there have been few, if any, cases of actual harm due to anything specific to vaping. Mishandling of batteries is a separate issue.
I'll admit freely that I don't understand what the actual concern is over the safety of WTA, if there is one. I assume that testing of the product could reveal if there is anything harmful in it, as long as they know what they're looking for. Is there a specific concern?
Depends on your vantage point.
All or nothing is a successful approach from an advocacy standpoint.
So is transparency.
For example, your petition only saw a push back on the idea that it's merely a petition.
Simple
Clear
Transparent
Going on 61,000 signatures.
If we advocated to be left alone...
Or for simple, common sense rules...
Something like your updates could be utilized to raise awareness for an advocacy group with a common sense mission statement and an approach designed for success.
Advocate for unobtrusive, simple rules.
Under 18, no sales without parental consent. (Parents signature can be kept on file after initial proof of custody.)
I don't agree with it but I also don't allow my children caffeine or hollow carbs. Shrug
Separate and clearly Mark AEMSA approved juices and display at least a synopsis of AEMSA rules.
Training sessions resulting in certification for first purchases. Cover batteries especially from beginning to end including false sense of security.
Etc
Then send emails to all who's interested with a standard letter to sign and a link to forward it at every sign of a scare, change or legislator sneezing.
We're in an age where you can't ask people to do things for themselves and expect them to stand together as a group.
That results in everything being so convoluted and fragmented that your statement can't possibly be wrong and failure is nearly guaranteed.
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Actually, my petition got pushback, from the advocacy groups, over the idea that vaping could and should be separated from tobacco. In addition to the notion that a petition is only valuable if it can directly cause a change.
That's why I didn't put the iotus on them.
But then a single chemical analysis isn't THAT expensive either way.
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I think AEMSA's problem is that nobody really knows what's in it. Sure, it's mainly nicotine (90-95%) with most of the balance being a few other minor alkaloids, but there's probably between 100 and 1000 ppm of other "impurities".
Then there's also the fact that the presence of the other alkaloids is claimed to increase the addictive potential of the liquid. Of course, that's exactly why helps smokers for whom nicotine alone isn't good enough to quit, but it's sure not politically correct to make nicotine (already perceived by many as the most addictive substance known to man) even more addictive. Think of the children!
If you're looking for the presence or absence of a particular substance, it's not. But doing a complete assay of what's essentially an unknown mixture of stuff certainly can be.
I signed it. I feel like any noise with a few thousand people behind it will be paid attention to. They know the vape vote is out there and petitions like yours prove that we ARE here and we ARE paying attention.
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