A Question of Ethics

[jake.scrivener.js]

Wow this blew up...thanks everyone for your replies...i will try to read them all, but its gonna take a minute, I'm only on page 3 lol

 

[Joe13]

Practically speaking, I think BT is barking up the wrong tree.

They're obviously focusing on the cig-a-like form factor. Small, underpowered batteries, coupled with non-refillable cartridges. I know these devices have some appeal, but they're just not powerful enough for most of us.

My wife knows someone at Altria, and according to him, they're hard at work in search of THE "perfect" flavor. As if! Even if they came up with a great vape, I'd still get bored of it after a day or two. Blu has a whopping seven (7) flavors available.

Regardless of ethics, which is everyone's personal decision, I think BT is missing the boat here. But I won't tell them if you won't.

 

[FireDragon1138]

there's no way in hell they're going to make a safer alternative to what we're currently vaping.

The "Big Tobacco" meme is part of the ANTZ propaganda, and part of the long-term strategy to denormalize smoking. If cigarettes can be seen as some kind of alien influence, then all the better for them.

If there's profit in it, BT will make a safer product- they have no particular need to kill customers. But it's a business and they have an ethical obligation to their stockholders to make profit, not to be moralistic about what people choose to smoke, vape, or injest... especially when that product is 100 percent legal. If you want to blame somebody, blame the government that has no moral resolve, because they are the ones that basically set the ground rules that BT plays under. The government gets to hypocritically play both sides- verbally abusing tobacco companies and smokers (and soon vapers), but at the same time profiting from the sale of cigarettes.

I don't think cig-a-likes are dead, and I think its smart for tobacco companies to focus on them because that helps lure in current smokers more than handing them something that looks like a flashlight. Cig-a-likes won't appeal to hobbyist, "sport vapers", but they work for many people. Let's remember that the e-cigarette took off around the wold in the cig-a-like or pen-style form factor.

 

[Fir3b1rd]

Practically speaking, I think BT is barking up the wrong tree.

They're obviously focusing on the cig-a-like form factor. Small, underpowered batteries, coupled with non-refillable cartridges. I know these devices have some appeal, but they're just not powerful enough for most of us.

My wife knows someone at Altria, and according to him, they're hard at work in search of THE "perfect" flavor. As if! Even if they came up with a great vape, I'd still get bored of it after a day or two. Blu has a whopping seven (7) flavors available.

Regardless of ethics, which is everyone's personal decision, I think BT is missing the boat here. But I won't tell them if you won't.

I couldn't help but laf at the "perfect flavor" comment lol I'm still searching for the perfect flavor for me; but, that's part of the fun lol.
When I was trying BLU I couldn't help but think that they put those out to aggravate people so they smoke more haha. It was like trying to suck a watermelon through a straw, so hard to get a good draw, then needed a recharge every 20 minutes. I try not to knock any valuing gear but on BLU I make an exception since my girl still uses and enjoys it-lol
I still stand behind the statement of if BT came out with a good product that I enjoyed using I have no problem buying it. Especially with the current state of the American economy.


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[DaveP]

I wouldn't trust tobacco companies to make juice. Their history with cigarettes makes me wary of anything they could produce. If they were allowed to enhance the addictive properties of tobacco, they'd also do it with ejuice. I don't want ammonia and

[h=1]Cigarette Additives - What They Are and What They Do[/h]

Researchers Michael Rabinoff, DO, PhD, Nicholas Caskey, PhD, Anthony Rissling, MA, and Candice Park, BS reviewed publicly available tobacco industry documents, the list of 599 additives and other sources, finding that more than 100 of them have qualities that may either enhance addiction or mask the negative effects of cigarettes.

For instance, some cigarette additives:

can dilate the airways, allowing the smoker to inhale more deeply. This increases nicotine exposure and can deposit higher levels of tar in the lungs. Cocoa is an additive known to do this.
have addictive potential of their own or synergistically with nicotine.
slow the metabolism of nicotine, thereby increasing the smoker's exposure to it.
have anesthetic properties that decrease the harshness of tobacco smoke on the throat.
mask the smell, visibility and irritation of environmental tobacco smoke.
may disguise warning symptoms of illnesses associated with cigarette smoking.

 

[jwoode]

They (BT) did everything they could to make it as addictive as possible; they did everything they could to make it as attractive as possible; they denied the facts as long as possible; even after the dangers and the addictiveness became common knowledge and they had to label the packages and pay out the settlement money, they're still making the highly addictive product, a jillion brands marketed to specific groups in some cases, i.e. women, and they are still as readily available as milk....Why would you trust them to make a safe, non-addictive ecigarette/ejuice???

"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

Quoting this just because it should be read twice.

 

[Stosh]

Practically speaking, I think BT is barking up the wrong tree.

They're obviously focusing on the cig-a-like form factor. Small, underpowered batteries, coupled with non-refillable cartridges. I know these devices have some appeal, but they're just not powerful enough for most of us.

My wife knows someone at Altria, and according to him, they're hard at work in search of THE "perfect" flavor. As if! Even if they came up with a great vape, I'd still get bored of it after a day or two. Blu has a whopping seven (7) flavors available.

Regardless of ethics, which is everyone's personal decision, I think BT is missing the boat here. But I won't tell them if you won't.

It depends on what their strategy is actually targeting. What do they see as a profitable future market.
For BT to win they only need a few regulations and taxes in place.

If they can market to smokers who still outnumber vapers by a wide margin -- WIN
If they have a product that has the same or similar flavor as what their current customers are used to --WIN
If taxes make e-cigs equal in cost as cigarettes -- WIN (consumers pay the tax, not BT)
If smokers become dual users, with the same profit to BT -- WIN
If smokers that want to quit, fail as often as NRT users do -- WIN
If users of their products are locked into their cartridges / liquid -- WIN
If refilling is impossible and "child safe" replacement cartridges are the only option -- WIN
If the cost after taxes of nicotine liquid would make Five Pawns blush -- WIN

I don't think that BT envisions the future of vaping in the same light as we do. I'm not waiting with baited breath for their "flavors" as I blend my own, never found a pre-mixed flavor as good as my own. I also can cook better than I can get as frozen nuke-em dinners....

 

[Uma]

On ethical grounds? Why not? They never twisted my arm to use their products. I knew perfectly well how bad they were.

If they only had the same four ingredients and high quality, yes I would! They would see what products sells better and we would get more advertising.

I don't think there's a whole lot of smokers left (present or former) who can honestly say that they didn't know smoking was addictive and bad for them when they started. I certainly did, and that makes ME responsible for any harm that 36 years of smoking may have caused me.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other. I'd just as likely support the big companies in their efforts as I would the smaller ones.


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No... I'm not buying that. Regardless of whether I got addicted unknowingly, it's still *my* responsibility to do something about it once I have all the facts. I (and millions of others) simply chose not to.

Because your elected officials "cut a deal" with them. (i.e., Big Tobacoo bought their right to keep killing us ) So who really cares about you? (That's rhetorical... nobody cares about you except "you" in these matters).

People who choose to do things they know are bad for them are simply victims of their own stupidity. I was, as was every other former smoker who started within the past 40 years...
The utter lack of responsibility for ones' own actions is why we are becoming a nanny state...

I would have no problem buying liquid from them. I'm a libertarian and free market system proponent. If they can make a good product at a good price why not? I knew how bad smoking was when I started and they didn't force me to buy it, light it and smoke it; all they did was provide it. They provided it because there is a demand for it. Now I am in demand for e-liquid a good liquid at a good price if they can provide I'll give them my money. It's an American company with American worker and American worker families benefiting from my money also. Being a separatist benefits no one including myself.


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I'm puzzled at this entire thread.

BT is already in the vaping industry, quite heavily.

Who do you think has popularized vaping?

* Lorillard owns Blu E-cigs, which pushed its way to the #1 best selling ecig on the market, thanks to spiffy marketing. They also own cigarette brands Newport, Kent, True, Maverick and Old Gold.

* R.J. Reynolds owns Vuse E-cigs, which are battling it out with Blu for the #1 spot. R.J. Reynolds owns cigarette brands Camel, Kool, Winston, Salem, Doral, Eclipse, Pall Mall, Barclay, Belair, Capri, Carlton, GPC, Lucky Strike, Misty, Monarch, More, Now, Tareyton, Vantage, and Viceroy.

* Altria Group owns MarkTen E-cigs and recently bought Green Smoke Vapor. Altria was the slowest to enter the market, but it's gaining steam. Altria Group owns cigarette brands Basic, Benson & Hedges, Bond Street, Cambridge, Chesterfield, L&M, Marlboro, Merit, Next, Papastratos, Parliament, SG, Português, Ritz, Águia, Tabaqueira, Detroit, Kentucky, and Sampoerna.

Big Tobacco Begins its Takeover of the E-Cigarette Market - Corporate Intelligence - WSJ

All 3 of these BT companies are taking business from 'clean' vape companies that have never sold a cigarette, such as NJOY, Logic, Fin and Mistic, and leaving them in the dust. Considering a large percentage of current vapers switched initially to one of these brands, like Blu, I find the notion of condemning vapers who choose to use BT vaping products to be hypocritical.

How many of you have used or tried a Blu or a Vuse, and did so without the knowledge that those companies are owned by BT? Did you die when you vaped it? Did you feel you were addicted to that specific brand and just couldn't go on living without it?

No? Hmm...

It's fine to love vaping and take a stance against smoking. But when you take on a holier-than-thou attitude, especially against another vaper, you become no better than an ANTZ.

That's my issue with the boogeyman term "big". Yes, I shop a Lowes and WalMart. I also shop frequently at local stores for different things. When people start slinging terms like "ethical" around, they are treading into territory they have no business being in. As in, suggesting that I am unethical if I buy something from so called "big" tobacco? Bite me. I am an adult who earns my own money, and I will determine where I spend it, and what I will spend it on.

I am not a cranky person; really I'm not, but this kind of garbage has become so ingrained in our society it is beginning to make me ill. I don't like group mentality, I never have. I am an individual who is capable of making my own judgements about what is and what is not ethical and base my decisions upon that. You wanna brew your own juice? Fine with me. You wanna shop at nothing but local botique shops? Knock yourself out. My ethics are my business, and suggesting otherwise is starting down a path that has been tread upon before. It doesn't lead to anywhere good.

The "Big Tobacco" meme is part of the ANTZ propaganda, and part of the long-term strategy to denormalize smoking. If cigarettes can be seen as some kind of alien influence, then all the better for them.

If there's profit in it, BT will make a safer product- they have no particular need to kill customers. But it's a business and they have an ethical obligation to their stockholders to make profit, not to be moralistic about what people choose to smoke, vape, or injest... especially when that product is 100 percent legal. If you want to blame somebody, blame the government that has no moral resolve, because they are the ones that basically set the ground rules that BT plays under. The government gets to hypocritically play both sides- verbally abusing tobacco companies and smokers (and soon vapers), but at the same time profiting from the sale of cigarettes.

I don't think cig-a-likes are dead, and I think its smart for tobacco companies to focus on them because that helps lure in current smokers more than handing them something that looks like a flashlight. Cig-a-likes won't appeal to hobbyist, "sport vapers", but they work for many people. Let's remember that the e-cigarette took off around the wold in the cig-a-like or pen-style form factor.

^^^^ this/these ^^^^^.
I couldnt agree more.

 

[Uma]

I didn't read the studies back then, I only read the propaganda that I assumed was factual reporting.
I've since discovered many things.
The many ingredients calculated into a smoke are not "added". They are a result of many things, including the growing of, the rolling of, and the burning of.
The pneumonia that was added, to boost the nicotine's affect, was accidentally genius. Nicotine is the only beneficial ingredient of a smoke!! The smoke kills live cells, the nicotine restores live cells.

The BT came up with many ideas to reduce harm over the years, starting back in the 40's & 50's. When "health" experts fretted over the non filtered smoke and tar, the BT introduced filters. The filters needed refinement, of course, due to it being a new concept, but they had at least tried to address any issues that might hurt their customers before their time.
The "health" experts attacked them for their efforts. Yep. Totally ridiculed, demeaned, and literally lawsuit attacked. Say what?!
The "health" experts totally twisted and smeared everything the BT did. Sound familiar?

Had it not been for the campaign against vaping, I never would have discovered the truths. The way the "health" groups attack smokeless products, THR products, filters, etc, just nauseates me. It is they, the "health experts and anti-anybody" whom I don't trust.

Would I trust BT vapes? Only if the gov doesn't step in and force them to make it more addictive for global sales taxes as they send the vaping soldiers off to "war". (IMHO)

 

[SingedVapor]

I would never buy anything from the big tobacco companies that was vaping related... First off how could anyone trust anything by them? We know perfectly well that they add all those horrid chemicals to cigarettes... Who says they wouldn't do that with the e-juices. They could add all kinds off things to make them more addictive and stronger. I wouldn't trust them at all for anything vaping related. Most (if not all) good vendors of vaping e-juices and equipment care about the healthy and safety of the consumer. The tabacco companies are mass murders whose only goal is to make money. The will do whatever it takes to make money even if it means destroying thousands of peoples lives in the process. just my two cents

 

[Uma]

P.s. Here's an article that tries (& succeeds) to demean and ridicule the BT efforts to minimize any concerns or insults any anti tossed their way. Many attempts are not listed, it's just a partial list. They even tried Gilbert's first vape model, which isn't listed here, for instance.
Anti's ridicule and sue. Antis are the ones who should be sued if you ask me! NOVA | "Safer" Cigarettes: A History

 

[Rossum]

Had it not been for the campaign against vaping, I never would have discovered the truths. The way the "health" groups attack smokeless products, THR products, filters, etc, just nauseates me. It is they, the "health experts and anti-anybody" whom I don't trust.

Yep; what got me curious about vaping late last year were all the articles in the press that were lamenting the fact that the FDA had not yet done it's job by regulating e-cigs, so I figured I should check it out before the government ruined it.

I also agree that most "health experts" are either clueless or are pushing some type agenda that does't have people's health as its highest priority.

 

[Frenchfry1942]

All good points. I don't mind standards for vaping juices, in whatever form. I look at it from a "getting healthy" point of view. That IS my objective. Peppermint Patty- flavor is nice, but it is not my objective.

If the FDA only requires quality, USP-certified of the three primary liquids, it will weed out the hucksters. AND, it will delineate what an e-cig is. With that in mind, BT will also do it because cigarettes in general are losing money.

If BT makes money, as in market share, they will stop pushing for legislation. Would they actually promote it?

For me, I will still go to get the juices that I like.

I went to the websites and noticed that it was for cig-alikes. Most vapers use those, but quickly move on...

I don't know but if the ejuice has to be USP-certified, BT is making a profit and stops campaigning. It is possible...

If I am missing a variable/consideration please say so.

 

[Uma]

Nicotine in itself is not the addictive property that the anti's swear it is.

As far as children being attracted to the movie smoking, that's BS of the highest kind. Everybody in real life smoked, they were dull boring old fogies who couldn't impress a kid if their pants were on fire. The kids looked up to those who were different... Roy and Dale Evans, Audie Murphy, Shirley Temple, Batman, Superman, ... the smokers coughed, couldn't catch a thief, were just boring everyday people.

With that said, however, those everyday people were the backbone of our country. From the military heroes to the Einstein.

Glamour? The long plastic filter tip that supposedly kept the yellow off the fingers, the tar off the lungs, was so "glamorized" people felt stupid using them. Even today it's used as an exaggeration prop for glamour lol.
Plotting the old Marlboro man against OMG sexy Audie Murphy is/was a ridiculous concept. Especially when Champ was in the picture too.

The ANTZ champ for their own prize money. MSA, TSET, BP grants, fund drives, Iclei grants(?), .. You name it, they champ for it. They could care less about YOUR "health".

 

[stevegmu]

Practically speaking, I think BT is barking up the wrong tree.

They're obviously focusing on the cig-a-like form factor. Small, underpowered batteries, coupled with non-refillable cartridges. I know these devices have some appeal, but they're just not powerful enough for most of us.

My wife knows someone at Altria, and according to him, they're hard at work in search of THE "perfect" flavor. As if! Even if they came up with a great vape, I'd still get bored of it after a day or two. Blu has a whopping seven (7) flavors available.

Regardless of ethics, which is everyone's personal decision, I think BT is missing the boat here. But I won't tell them if you won't.

Cigalikes are the market right now. People on this forum are unusual vapers, not the norm...

 

[doghair]

Since I diy I know exactly what is in my juice. I don't trust the backroom and chinese mad scientists who are making it now, I can't even imagine the addictive and caustic crap BT would pour into e-juice. All for my health and the sake of the children of course.

 

[Recycled Roadkill]

I'm rethinking my previous position. Maybe if BT were to offer coupons with their vapes I could get a new wrist watch?

 

[Fir3b1rd]

I'm rethinking my previous position. Maybe if BT were to offer coupons with their vapes I could get a new wrist watch?

Hahahaha Marlboro vapor miles! That's a jacket I would vape for! Lol


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[patkin]

In a perfect world... no I would not patronize them. BUT... and its a big one... if they're all legislation leaves me to choose from, then I'll have to because I won't go back to the smokes they hawk. If all they put out is crappy stuff that gets used up too fast increasing their sales (like some are doing right now) and in an attempt to get me to go back to smokes, then I'll find a way to modify it.

 

[jwoode]

Every day in the US:

Deaths from smoking: 1213
Deaths from drugs: 105

Source: CDC