Acetyl Proprionyl, Diacetyl, Acetoine HELP
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Hiya!
Made a little blog about some info with resources below. Included EU info, too.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...etyl-acetyl-propionyl-acetoin-flavorings.html
Forgot to post the blog.
Forgot to post the blog.
What is the status of Nature's Flavors? I got a whole bunch of stuff from them when i first started DIY and ended up having to use them in my coffee due to the naturally occuring diacetyls (organic flavorings). That was quite a while ago and i haven't kept up.
ECF member- "This is an email I received from emailing the eliquid company Zues juice few days ago , as I started off vaping fruit type liquid I enjoyed a few of there flavors ."
Zues - "Hello ,
We do not have diacetyl, I've never even heard of it until I googled it. However, we do not have that in our juice.
Can I help you with anything else?
---
Happy Vaping!
Debbie E"
OMG
Zues - "Hello ,
We do not have diacetyl, I've never even heard of it until I googled it. However, we do not have that in our juice.
Can I help you with anything else?
---
Happy Vaping!
Debbie E"
OMG
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ECF member- "This is an email I received from emailing the eliquid company Zues juice few days ago , as I started off vaping fruit type liquid I enjoyed a few of there flavors ."
Zues - "Hello ,
We do not have diacetyl, I've never even heard of it until I googled it. However, we do not have that in our juice.
Can I help you with anything else?
---
Happy Vaping!
Debbie E"
OMG
.....
OMG!? I think you were supposed to be reassured, vangrl. It does kind of make you wonder what else they've never heard of.
I have a small order for about 20-30 bottles in with them as of last night, so I'll be following up with a request for the information. Hopefully I'll have it within 24-48 hours as that's been the typical response time for them. I'm not the only one with Inawera though. Many others have been in contact with them and put them right up there with FlavourArt in terms of being free of those chemicals. Other threads with other members are detailing them same here on ECF, I'm simply moving forward to ask for proof on my end and in turn, I'll post it to this thread. Other members appear to already be requesting such and were probably told the same thing as I was.
The issue with FW seems to be a fluke experience - perhaps they don't care, or they employees (even managers) are not well-informed - but all of the Hangsen documents I've seen show no presence of those chemicals. Obviously I haven't seen one for every single flavor, though when picking flavors that others mentioned in the array of threads on the topic, the worst chemical present was the Benzyl alcohol which carries a bit of toxicity with it. The rest of what shows up in their e-liquids consisted of what I mentioned in a thread earlier on. Audrey has followed up with me multiple times since and did all but beg to convince me that the chemicals were not present and that everyone has an open offer to test their flavors anytime, anyplace for further confirmation.
If someone had access to a lab, I'd gladly throw up 30-50ml's of French Vanilla Ice Cream for them to test out if that's enough, no cost. I have a 120ml bottle sitting right in front of me and I use it sparingly as it's a pretty stout flavor
I won't comment further on Inawera until they respond though. I don't taste the chemicals in either brands (Hangsen or Inawera). I can, however, taste it easily in Capella's, TFA's and the ones FlavourArt offers that are already labeled, so I can tell where it is, though it seems some of the flavors that would make you think it's there, it's really not. Hangsens' Vanilla is a prime example. It starts off very buttery like, but their report from SGS shows none of the chemicals.
'Just want to clarify regarding this (which applies to ALL vendors): but all of the Hangsen documents I've seen show no presence of those chemicals
Wethinks we need (as much as possible) to stick with the facts in this thread/issue.
Having "documents" means nothing if the documents don't show adequate testing!
Here's copy/paste of the comments & HS document from Post #416:
. I don't know a lot of about SGS as a company, nor the depth of the reporting they provide or what Hangsen requests. I'm only going by the info specifically on the report I was provided with which is dated October 2010. The recipe has not changed nor has the flavoring, from what was said.
Hangsen Vanilla E-Liquid
Specific Chemicals: Benzenemethanol, 4-hydroxy-3-methoxy (4.2%); Vanilla Extract (15%), Water (10%), Ethyl Maltol (0.5%); 2,5-dimethylpyrazine (1.8%), Glycerin (64.5%), Vanillin (4%).
Audrey stated that they do not have SDS's on all e-liquids, therefore they do not have them on all flavors. They go about things in a slightly different way - whether you feel it's good or bad, I'm just reporting on what she said. They provide samples to clients who wish to further test their flavors, but due to the number of flavors, they do not test all of them. Clients can test them independently, or they can pay HS to aid with the testing. I didn't ask about the costs, though I am following us asking why and how they can state whether these chemicals are for certain not in others, so bare with me on this.
Hangsen Vanilla E-Liquid
Specific Chemicals: Benzenemethanol, 4-hydroxy-3-methoxy (4.2%); Vanilla Extract (15%), Water (10%), Ethyl Maltol (0.5%); 2,5-dimethylpyrazine (1.8%), Glycerin (64.5%), Vanillin (4%).
Audrey stated that they do not have SDS's on all e-liquids, therefore they do not have them on all flavors. They go about things in a slightly different way - whether you feel it's good or bad, I'm just reporting on what she said. They provide samples to clients who wish to further test their flavors, but due to the number of flavors, they do not test all of them. Clients can test them independently, or they can pay HS to aid with the testing. I didn't ask about the costs, though I am following us asking why and how they can state whether these chemicals are for certain not in others, so bare with me on this.
What we see above is that nothing that was tested for is listed at less than .5%. This could mean that there are diketones present at less than .5% (because less than .5% is considered "non detected"), or that specific testing wasn't even done for diketones. This test does not prove that the flavor is free of diketones...unless one knows what was tested for and what the parameters of testing actually are/were.
We know that there's some kind of "chemical standard" somewhere (for the US? worldwide?) that for general chemical testing where any amount that is less than .4mg/mL is considered Not Detected (ND). But we know that a flavor containing .3mg/mL used at 5%, ends up creating a juice with 15,017ppb of that chemical. And that's a long friggin' way from "none"....and if there happens to be 2 or 3 "NDs", then we're talking 30,000 - 45,000ppb.
So when you/anyone says "the documents show" 'no presence of these chemicals', it means nothing unless one knows what standards & tests are being utilized...or even if the test included testing for those specific chemicals.
Another example: Capella claims no diacetyl in Vanilla Custard, and they had the VC tested and it showed ND (<.4mg/ml)...and according to JT, Capella admits to acetyl proprionyl. But a test had been done before on Capella's VC http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/one-stop-diy-shop/143373-vanilla-custard-flavoring-diacetyl.html that showed diacetyl 'in small amounts', along with acetyl propionyl and acetoin.
Hangsen Italian Cream tastes strongly (it reeks) of a diketone to us (to the point of creating nausea, like many others) - and at one point they admitted using one of the diketones on their website (IIRC, it was acetyl propionyl).
You/anyone are certainly entitled to your opinion, and perhaps 'direct lie labeling' as "Diacetyl Free" such as FW did is a "fluke"...but we're seeing tons of squirming, dangling of carrots and alleged confirmations (without any evidence of proof) when vendors are asked if their flavors are free of diacetyl, acetyl propionyl & acetoin.
--Every vendor/manufacturer worldwide can legally use GRAS chemicals
--Any vendor/manufacturer would have to go to GREAT expense to totally reformulate established recipes, formulas & suppliers (and if they're using "industry standard premixes", they'd have to hire one/more flavoring chemists to create new mixes).
--Apparently the small amount of the 'inhalation risk chemicals' needed to produce the flavors, many times equates to Non Detectable by certain standards/tests, and so the the vendor/manufacturer can easily claim "not present" in test results.
--Reformulating and/or adequate testing is a major pain-in-the-.... and expense, and one that is not required of them in any way. IF they go to the expense of gaining the evidence needed, there's absolutely NO REASON to not make the evidence available.
Yet, we are still not seeing any evidence of actual 'confirmation'...just the same bunch of rhetoric that vapers have been hearing for YEARS already.
MBV is in the process of testing all liquids. However, they are really not happy with the allegations insinuated by certain hippies that pretend to be something other than proponents for their own sales. Thanks for listening to my input.
we2rcool does FlavourArt have an ingredient list on the flavours somewhere? I do believe you that they are free of AA&D but there was a thread on the Canadian site discussing not being able to find it anywhere.
this is a quote from a Canadian e-juice maker, a large one that carries MANY flavours and uses many different Flavour manufacturers. He is in the process of testing every single flavour concentrate that he uses for AA&D. It's his response to the question regarding whether FlavourArt has anything to back up their claim in being AA&D free.
"yes I only use the ones in vape heaven, it advices you which flavours do and dont have D, A and AA. but I cant say for sure 100% all those flavour dont have any of those ingredients, just the ones I used ive tested and came back ND for D, A, and AA and I use most of them.
I dont have the same confidence with the other flavour manufacturers, I want cold hard proof and not skirting it. I think TPA is pretty reliable in their information the others not so much. "
So he's tested "most" of them and they indeed did come up ND, which makes me really happy
To our knowledge, there is no "ingredient list". But the baseline information is (to us) more than adequate. We know that back around 2010, FA recognized the need for testing, and tested all of their flavors for diacetyl/diketones (or knew what was in them without testing), and the started to reformulate every flavor (now their E Cigarette Line) to contain ZERO diacetyl/diketones. Every flavor (in their Kitchen Magic line) that contains diacetyl/diketones is clearly noted.
From here: Our contribution to research | ClearStream by FlavourArt
Everyone who enjoys vaping is probably aware of the completely untested nature of the practice. This is a risk we take consciously. The primary elements, Glycerine and Propylene Glycol, carry at least some body of experience, and the toxicity, even by direct inhalation, do not seem threatening. The nicotine, as a pure compound, has certain known physiologic and mental effects, but surprisingly toxicity has seldom been tested in separation from tobacco smoke with its countless toxins. To some, like patients with circulatory problems, nicotine’s effects in constricting blood vessels can clearly be dangerous. Whether to vape nicotine-free or with nicotine is a personal choice. But, not surprisingly, it is the inhalation of flavoring that is least studied. Tobacco companies in the USA have just started revealing, under FDA pressure, what they add to commercial cigarette tobacco, and the list is long (e,g, 400 compounds, including diacetyl). Until more studies are performed on the thousands of flavoring molecules that might find their way into e-liquids, we might benefit from a conservative approach, namely use e-liquid that is lightly flavored. It is common sense that e-liquids that contain 25% flavoring carry potentially more risk of unexpected toxicity than those flavored at 5%. It took decades for the toxicity of butter flavorings to become better appreciated.
As a leading supplier of flavoring for e-liquids we urge you to use flavoring wisely.
With these considerations in mind, we have introduced the “ClearStream protocol” which consists in proactive formulation review, and with the consultancy of expert toxicologist, we have started, since November 2010 to remove any added diacetyl and related diketones from most of our formulas.
In the past, when blending composite flavors, we used small amounts of standard “notes”, like caramel, that are ready-made and universally taste-enhanced with diacetyl. This is how trace amounts of diacetyl found their way into some of our Vape Heaven flavors, in some cases so low that on the spreadsheet we used to post diacetyl content, the last digit was not visible . But in light of November’s OSHA notices (see here), we have completely revised our approach. Everybody else in the flavoring business, from Italy to China, uses the type of formulations we used before, and very few are thinking of the diacetyl content, or consider it significant. We had thought that in practice the trace amounts present in our Vape Heaven products were not dangerous. But it’s not an acceptable long term risk for a business like ours, when the exact causes of injuries observed among workers in factories where butter flavorings are used are still not completely understood.
And in light of calculated concentrations that a vaper might be exposed to from heavily flavored e-liquids, we have reformulated, at considerable expense, all of our Vape Heaven flavors to be completely free of any added diacetyl and/or related diketons. The general application flavors that cannot be created without them, but are perfectly safe for food, such as Butter, yogurt, etc are being clearly marked as “Unsuitable for Vaping”. These should not be used in flavoring e-liquid, nor applied as a “top note” in blending more complex vapable flavors. We feel that this should be a matter of informed choice.
Diacetyl and “butterings” removal is an ongoing process and other formulas will be cleared in the months to come.
Moreover, in absence of guidelines or legal frameworks related to safety of ecigs and e liquids, we have started a massive cytotoxic analysis program, comparing, in vitro, the toxicity on upper airways cells, of 15 puffs from standard cigarette, vs 120 puff of flavored Heaven Juices.
The goal is to have on test 50 of our flavors and we expect to complete the project within September 2011.
We are glad to present the firsts 10 studies and we will regular update this page as soon new data will be made available.
Readers will notice that different flavors act in different way, but scientific data show that there is an effective harm reduction and the absence of combustion and tar formation, strengthen the status of ecigs as a real and less harming alternative to standard smoke.
Finally we are developing Vape-specific flavors that use simple formulas, at low concentrations, and focusing on those flavorings that have a “track record” that (at least) suggests a greater measure of safety. You will be hearing more about this area of our research in months to come.
For further considerations about “ecigs and safety” please visit this page
As a leading supplier of flavoring for e-liquids we urge you to use flavoring wisely.
With these considerations in mind, we have introduced the “ClearStream protocol” which consists in proactive formulation review, and with the consultancy of expert toxicologist, we have started, since November 2010 to remove any added diacetyl and related diketones from most of our formulas.
In the past, when blending composite flavors, we used small amounts of standard “notes”, like caramel, that are ready-made and universally taste-enhanced with diacetyl. This is how trace amounts of diacetyl found their way into some of our Vape Heaven flavors, in some cases so low that on the spreadsheet we used to post diacetyl content, the last digit was not visible . But in light of November’s OSHA notices (see here), we have completely revised our approach. Everybody else in the flavoring business, from Italy to China, uses the type of formulations we used before, and very few are thinking of the diacetyl content, or consider it significant. We had thought that in practice the trace amounts present in our Vape Heaven products were not dangerous. But it’s not an acceptable long term risk for a business like ours, when the exact causes of injuries observed among workers in factories where butter flavorings are used are still not completely understood.
And in light of calculated concentrations that a vaper might be exposed to from heavily flavored e-liquids, we have reformulated, at considerable expense, all of our Vape Heaven flavors to be completely free of any added diacetyl and/or related diketons. The general application flavors that cannot be created without them, but are perfectly safe for food, such as Butter, yogurt, etc are being clearly marked as “Unsuitable for Vaping”. These should not be used in flavoring e-liquid, nor applied as a “top note” in blending more complex vapable flavors. We feel that this should be a matter of informed choice.
Diacetyl and “butterings” removal is an ongoing process and other formulas will be cleared in the months to come.
Moreover, in absence of guidelines or legal frameworks related to safety of ecigs and e liquids, we have started a massive cytotoxic analysis program, comparing, in vitro, the toxicity on upper airways cells, of 15 puffs from standard cigarette, vs 120 puff of flavored Heaven Juices.
The goal is to have on test 50 of our flavors and we expect to complete the project within September 2011.
We are glad to present the firsts 10 studies and we will regular update this page as soon new data will be made available.
Readers will notice that different flavors act in different way, but scientific data show that there is an effective harm reduction and the absence of combustion and tar formation, strengthen the status of ecigs as a real and less harming alternative to standard smoke.
Finally we are developing Vape-specific flavors that use simple formulas, at low concentrations, and focusing on those flavorings that have a “track record” that (at least) suggests a greater measure of safety. You will be hearing more about this area of our research in months to come.
For further considerations about “ecigs and safety” please visit this page
And of course, the ClearStream 'cytotoxicity studies' is still progressing. I don't have the links to those 'at the ready' - but anyone can find them by clicking around the ClearStream/FA site.
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If by that, it is meant that "we2" are the "certain hippies", then please let them know that we don't care what they think of us...or what they think of any other vaper that believes that sellers of flavors & eliquids have an ethical & moral responsibility to adequately test every fluid that will ever go into anyone's lungs...and reveal the results of the tests so that every vaper has the basic human right to make an informed choice. MBV and every other vendor should have done that before they started lining their pockets with money from the vaping community....as in YEARS ago.
As far as "pretend to be something other than proponents for their own sales", we have no idea to whom they may be referring. The only seller in this thread is Jonathon Tittle, but he's never indicated he's a hippie. As far as us, we have never sold one ml of juice we make, and have absolutely no intetion of ever selling any. Of course, it's possible we'd allow a friend or two to reimburse us for making them one they like - but there's no way in hell we'd enter into such a crazy-volatile market (that's fraught with all manner of customer service nightmares on top of that).
Oh yes, and btw, if you're "go-betweening" to MBV, please let them know that they are free to PM us if they have something they'd like to say to us.
Not sure I follow on the second portion of this comment. I don't think anyone was insinuating anything in this thread, rather, the majority of us have been exchanging information which is very relevant to those who prefer not to vape e-liquids that use flavors which contain Diacetyl, Acetoin or Acetyl Proprionyl or; those who prefer not to use flavor manufacturers that do not state what's in their flavors for their DIY e-liquids.
I am a vendor and chose to take part in the discussion as I've been asking flavor manufacturers about these chemicals long before I created my own brand, so I'm not in this to boost my brand or make an extra buck based on the information I provide or discuss with other members (hence why my signature is hidden on all replies - I see no reason to promote, nor would I even if it were acceptable by the majority in this thread).
I see the exchange as beneficial. We'll all agree to disagree at times, though there's no reason to come in and begin labeling others, directly or indirectly.
If MBV is displeased with these allegations, testing should have ensued before selling to the public. It is negligent for a company to claim that "all of [their] e liquid is diacetyl free" when they have no credible data to support this declaration.
I can assure you that their unhappiness will be insignificant to their clients' unhappiness if their tested liquids contain chemicals known to be toxic. If their products are free from these chemicals, then they will be praised.
Until a company furnishes factual data to counter what is being said, then there is no basis for complaint.
If MBV is unhappy with a poster, MBV or you should contact the poster directly with a pm.
Please refer to the Forum Rules:
"You can disagree with the subject matter of a post, but never personally attack the poster - "Attack the post, not the poster." Treat people as you would like to be treated yourself: with courtesy."
Not permissible:
"Posting snide comments about another member."
Do you have credible evidence their eliquids or flavorings contain anything? It's more fear mongering and witch hunt, which I see more for steering people to certain vendors. I haven't attacked any poster, but lots of folks have made insinuations that aren't backed by facts. They aren't testing because of this thread, but because folks have been calling with fear BECAUSE of the threads in here.
Yes, I am for all the health stuff. Yes, I've been juicing, organic eating, green cleaning (haven't had chemicals in house for 4 years, and have lost 45 lbs), and believe in clean vaping. But when someone says they don't have something in the juice, nothing is good enough for the we2rcool unless it comes certified (close to certification demanded by the FDA), yet they don't like the FDA in another post.
I can disagree with wethinks, and I have not attacked them. But Hoosiers, and a few others in this thread (or others along the same lines), had valid points, and no one commented on them.
Thought I would bring your attention up and away. Looks like I did. Reread, and you will see it does not violate forum guidelines. However, it seems to validate following the entire thread, and it's progression. Wethinks does great in other threads, but this is beyond obsession. Vangirl brought up some great test results, but wethinks is taking it beyond. Sorry if offended, but methinks on my own, and my points of view are valid also. (PS, I love pets, and despite yourthinks, you have great contributions also).
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Did you read the thread title?
This has been an open issue since 2010. And blatant and provably false statements have been made. No one with intelligence or concern for health will now trust those saying, "trust me" -- without reason and confidence.
And suppliers can no longer just say, "trust me", they need to prove it -- or their customers will go elsewhere. This is the new price of business. However, the problem is NOT with their customers. Perhaps in the future suppliers might choose to speak-up and advocate for their customer's health?
However, if this is not a concern for you, then why are you in this thread? I would say an apology is in order.
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It is a concern, I've posted several issues in regards to research, and more so along the lines of how the diketones turn into diacetyl when heated with pg and flavorings, when no diacetyl was present in the flavorings to begin with.
And guess what? The vendors HAD NO IDEA!!
But to say FA isperfectly free, while every other vendor is not unless they publish a paper akin to what the FDA wants anyways, well, what is it exactly that this thread wants?
The original thread was to state the vendors and flavors without diacetyl, then the accompanying AA, and other diketones. The other diketones were used when diacetyl was pronounced unsafe, and further research showed that they broke down into diacetyl anyways. If you love vanilla, there isn't one perfectly safe vape according to this thread.
Back the accusations with science.
A lot of debate! Son of a......Ok. So we're all having this psychoactive, spastic fit over a couple of chemicals that "may" have negative side effects over long term exposure/inhalation.
1) If you're trippin over chemicals that you may be inhaling due to health risks, stop breathing altogether.
2) While I understand the valid concerns of vaping, the benefits far outweigh the potential risks.
3) Threads like this seem to generate more hate/fear than anything. If there's a chemical, product, or byproduct, that has any potential health concerns, research it fully. The path to freedom is through understanding.
4) When you find ANY chemical known to man, that DOESN'T have some sort of negative impact, at any given point, let me know.
If we spend so much time trying to purify our lives of all the "bad" things we encounter, we'll never experience the good that comes out of it.
Just my opinion.
1) If you're trippin over chemicals that you may be inhaling due to health risks, stop breathing altogether.
2) While I understand the valid concerns of vaping, the benefits far outweigh the potential risks.
3) Threads like this seem to generate more hate/fear than anything. If there's a chemical, product, or byproduct, that has any potential health concerns, research it fully. The path to freedom is through understanding.
4) When you find ANY chemical known to man, that DOESN'T have some sort of negative impact, at any given point, let me know.
If we spend so much time trying to purify our lives of all the "bad" things we encounter, we'll never experience the good that comes out of it.
Just my opinion.
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