Am I the only person who has a problem with ppl making juice in their homes?

[jensy]

How many tests would suffice for one vendor? One? One per flavor? But, if one test per flavor would suffice to keep you satisfied and feeling safe, you would also then have to take the vendor's word that they did not change up their recipes, or you would have to take their word from the word of their supplier that absolutely nothing had been tweaked or mishandled in the making of the primary ingredients. My point? My point is that the only way for these tests to be conducted and to be valid would be to test per flavor/per batch. Now I ask you, go to any one site, consider how many batches and flavors are being made and then consider the logistics of that. What about your customizeable made-to-order liquids? Not going to work in that system. In an actual made-to-order system, each bottle would be a batch. Do the math on those numbers, the turnaround and cost of testing, and then admit that the system that is being proposed will eviscerate the options that makes vaping capable of being tailored to the individual.

If you don't want to have any chance of consuming absolutely avoidable risks, DIY won't be your answer unless you DIY unflavored PG/VG/nic; the second you introduce any flavor, you just added the possibility of unknown and unnecessary risks for vaping -- no matter how minimal. You may say, "it clearly states on the flavor supplier's site it is DA/AP free," but those are the same words that the vendors initially took and adopted. [As far as I know, no flavoring manufacturer has readily available testing done on every single flavor/batch, and even if they did, what is their testing method? What is their LOD and LOQ? Would you even know how to read those test results?] And Dr.F's study showed us (and the part that changed my position on how little I do care about it) is that this is not an issue solely with "butter," "cream," "custards," but possible with myriad flavors. So don't think that you know how, necessarily, to avoid those risks just off of some product description.

Right now the concern is DA/AP, but there are staggering numbers of untested compounds for inhalation in flavors, so the real battle should be waged on flavor -- and I am not going to fight against flavors! Are you? Testing is great, but there aren't too many vendors that would be able to keep up with that type of rigidity and not too many customers that will pay markedly higher prices on liquids that were never meant to be high-end. This conversation may be more sober if those that want full-scale testing on every finished-product could wake up to what they are really proposing. Everyone has the right to desire what they wish, but you ought not be blind to the ramifications of what you are proposing.

I have no qualms with wanting to see test results from those that claim to have them, wanting bold disclaimers taken down from sites when there is no proof, and even a little more transparency from vendors. But, I am not for industry-wide requirements unless I want an industry so small that I no longer desire to be a part of it. For those that want to vape but want to be 100% free of these avoidable risks, you currently have an option: vape unflavored . There, done! You get what you want. If you want to vape flavors, you are an avoidable-risk taker. Accept it. If the unknown costs are too high for you to accept, you know what your available option is.

YES, YES, YES !!!!! I wish I could like this post a hundred times.

 

[Tangaroav]

How many tests would suffice for one vendor? One? One per flavor? But, if one test per flavor would suffice to keep you satisfied and feeling safe, you would also then have to take the vendor's word that they did not change up their recipes, or you would have to take their word from the word of their supplier that absolutely nothing had been tweaked or mishandled in the making of the primary ingredients. My point? My point is that the only way for these tests to be conducted and to be valid would be to test per flavor/per batch. Now I ask you, go to any one site, consider how many batches and flavors are being made and then consider the logistics of that. What about your customizeable made-to-order liquids? Not going to work in that system. In an actual made-to-order system, each bottle would be a batch. Do the math on those numbers, the turnaround and cost of testing, and then admit that the system that is being proposed will eviscerate the options that makes vaping capable of being tailored to the individual.

If you don't want to have any chance of consuming absolutely avoidable risks, DIY won't be your answer unless you DIY unflavored PG/VG/nic; the second you introduce any flavor, you just added the possibility of unknown and unnecessary risks for vaping -- no matter how minimal. You may say, "it clearly states on the flavor supplier's site it is DA/AP free," but those are the same words that the vendors initially took and adopted. [As far as I know, no flavoring manufacturer has readily available testing done on every single flavor/batch, and even if they did, what is their testing method? What is their LOD and LOQ? Would you even know how to read those test results?] And Dr.F's study showed us (and the part that changed my position on how little I do care about it) is that this is not an issue solely with "butter," "cream," "custards," but possible with myriad flavors. So don't think that you know how, necessarily, to avoid those risks just off of some product description.

Right now the concern is DA/AP, but there are staggering numbers of untested compounds for inhalation in flavors, so the real battle should be waged on flavor -- and I am not going to fight against flavors! Are you? Testing is great, but there aren't too many vendors that would be able to keep up with that type of rigidity and not too many customers that will pay markedly higher prices on liquids that were never meant to be high-end. This conversation may be more sober if those that want full-scale testing on every finished-product could wake up to what they are really proposing. Everyone has the right to desire what they wish, but you ought not be blind to the ramifications of what you are proposing.

I have no qualms with wanting to see test results from those that claim to have them, wanting bold disclaimers taken down from sites when there is no proof, and even a little more transparency from vendors. But, I am not for industry-wide requirements unless I want an industry so small that I no longer desire to be a part of it. For those that want to vape but want to be 100% free of these avoidable risks, you currently have an option: vape unflavored . There, done! You get what you want. If you want to vape flavors, you are an avoidable-risk taker. Accept it. If the unknown costs are too high for you to accept, you know what your available option is.

First of all I don't think every Cambell soup can need to be tested, do you ?

Yes, I think that the back-store and basement types commercial e-liquids should disappear as they are not qualified in any way and they are a danger to society.

Certifications from AEMSA is a very good exemple and assures that at least the basic safeguards are implemented. The cost to the consumers for AEMSA certified e-liquid vendors is highly competive and less than many uncertified 'premium' e-liquids.

... and yes AEMSA membership makes labeling and DA/AP free mandatory.

IMO, there is NO alternatives to self regulations except govt imposed regulations.

 

[Mr.Mann]

First of all I don't think every Cambell soup can need to be tested, do you ?

Yes, I think that the back-store and basement types commercial e-liquids should disappear as they are not qualified in any way and they are a danger to society.

Certifications from AEMSA is a very good exemple and assures that at least the basic safeguards are implemented. The cost to the consumers for AEMSA certified e-liquid vendors is highly competive and less than many uncertified 'premium' e-liquids.

... and yes AEMSA membership makes labeling and DA/AP free mandatory.

IMO, there is NO alternatives to self regulations except govt imposed regulations.

Who is talking about Campbell's Soup? That's odd. And no, they don't run extensive testing per can, which is why when it gets contaminated the whole lot is recalled. What does that mean? It wasn't tested to begin with (meaning per can, but that's not customizable made-to-order).

So you have confirmation that all AEMSA vendors have had every one of their flavors/batches tested -- and they all tested free of DA/AP? Okay. Mind boggling.

Do you like to be able to DIY? What makes you qualified to handle such materials? Are you a danger to yourself?

 

[Krashman Von Stinkputin]

I don't think anyone ever said vaping is good for you or it is something you should add to your way of life to make you healthy. Vaping is harm reduction ! Vaping is safer than smoking cigarettes with 3000 chemicals added . When people stop smoking cigarettes and switch to vaping it does not take long to feel the benefits. We breathe better, no coughing, more energy , sleep better etc, etc.

Before you get going with everyone and common sense well, hmmmm you did not even bother to find out where nicotine is being sourced in the world being India and China. Nicotine is one of the biggest components in ejuice so to me that would be a given. Just because a product comes from a China or India does it mean it is a gross product. Do you read all your food labels ? I think you will be surprised when a lot of food products come from .

Nothing we injest is "clean" even the FDA doesn't dictate that.
Someone in an earlier post referred to a "grossness scale" and essentially that is what the FDA and Health departments govern:

How much "grossness" is acceptable for human consumption.

As for our eliquids (and devices for that matter) alot of this will be worked out on it's own-- both through the proactive measures taken (or not taken) by vendors and manufacturers and those dictated (or inflicted) upon the industry.

The "ecig industry" we are experiencing and enjoying today is in its unregulated infancy and can't even define itself---it's literally the Wild West.
It's unrealistic to expect that the market can sustain all the juice vendors and device manufacturers that currently exist.


Forward thinking vendors will distinguish themselves on quality, service, price, ingredient and/or process.
Many will join together.
The rest will die.

Cream rises, turds don't.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Nothing we injest is "clean" even the FDA doesn't dictate that.
Someone in an earlier post referred to a "grossness scale" and essentially that is what the FDA and Health departments govern:

How much "grossness" is acceptable for human consumption.

As for our eliquids (and devices for that matter) alot of this will be worked out on it's own-- both through the proactive measures taken (or not taken) by vendors and manufacturers and those dictated (or inflicted) upon the industry.

The "ecig industry" we are experiencing and enjoying today is in its unregulated infancy and can't even define itself---it's literally the Wild West.
It's unrealistic to expect that the market can sustain all the juice vendors and device manufacturers that currently exist.


Forward thinking vendors will distinguish themselves on quality, service, price, ingredient and/or process.
Many will join together.
The rest will die.

Cream rises, turds don't.

Oh, I beg to differ -- some s***does float after sinking low. I see it everyday.

 

[Krashman Von Stinkputin]

Oh, I beg to differ -- some s***does float. I see it everyday.

Try Metamucil

Works for me

 

[Mr.Mann]

Try Metamucil

Works for me

Gross! I get my fiber from actual food. But, I do think this forum needs an enema. For real.

 

[crxess]

Less the comments continue to degrade, this was what I was referring to.

I know what it means but I haven't been able to find a USA supplier that sells to the USA companies which leads me to believe that not only DIY but also USA companies are importing the nic, gross.

Having been raised on the Va, N.C. Boundries and spending quite a large amount of time on farms in the areas, I simply do not see anyone passing judgement without understanding.
Many of Our Tobacco Crops have been Genetically altered and Pesticide inundated for decades.

Then again................ who cares anymore.
Life is to short for this silliness

 

[Krashman Von Stinkputin]

Who is talking about Campbell's Soup? That's odd. And no, they don't run extensive testing per can, which is why when it gets contaminated the whole lot is recalled. What does that mean? It wasn't tested to begin with.

So you have confirmation that all AEMSA vendors have had every one of their flavors/batches tested -- and they all tested free of DA/AP? Okay. Mind boggling.

Do you like to be able to DIY? What makes you qualified to handle such materials? Are you a danger to yourself?

Food and Pharma manufacturers have QC departments that continually test batches and usually their thresholds for contamination are more stringent than that required by FDA. The bigger the BRAND the more thorough the testing.
This is just as much about brand protection as it is about consumer protection.
So yes Campbell's does thorough QC tests on every batch of soup and samples cans from that batch run and checks them. (They also have processes to thoroughly clean each can before filling and scanning each can for foreign objects)

This can get even more complicated when you realize that Campbell's soup has ingredients sourced from other vendors
Thing is most bad product never leaves the plant.
Most modern recalls are manufacturer initiated and don't amount to anything other than BRAND protection (i.e just to be on the safe side).

HAACP is a process for protecting against this very thing--tracking and traceability of not only the final product but all of the component ingredients of that product. But as quickly as this tracking/tracing occurs, it can sometimes be not fast enough to catch a problem before the final product leaves the plant

So yes it is not at all unreasonable to (eventually) expect that every batch of eliquid is tested for whatever is determined it should be tested for---IF YOU INTEND TO SELL IT COMMERCIALLY.

If you DIY (assuming that the ingredients--namely nicotine--will not end up as a controlled substance) then you can put piss if your juice if you wanna (though it's flavor profile will be poor...or so I've heard)

ADDENDUM: Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for special NEW eliquid regulations. Just the application of existing standards to eliquids. In short, regulate it's production like you would Coke or Robitussen.

 

[stevegmu]

First off I disagree with you whole heartedly with you saying if people are disturbed Chantix will give them problems. The man I was talking about his name was Brett and he did not have any problems what so ever. Believe you me with the law suit they dug into his life with a fine toothed comb and found nothing of the sort. Notice I said WON the law suit.

Secondly with your assessment of if it didn't work nobody would buy it. Hmmmmm lets see , why is vaping so popular ? Why didn't everyone just use Chantix ? Ahhh that's right Chantix doesn't always work , Chantix does have really bad side effects and not just for the already disturbed as you say . Chantix is like playing russian roulette it may or may not work and you may be the person that it causes more harm than good .

I am sure there are exceptions with everything and I am sure disturbed people also go undiagnosed... Of course, Big Pharma is the devil, everyone wants a pay out and juries are easy to sway...

Vaping doesn't always work, either. Some people don't want to continue using nicotine. I believe both have the same success rates...

 

[Mr.Mann]

Food and Pharma manufacturers have QC departments that continually test batches and usually their thresholds for contamination are more stringent than that required by FDA. The bigger the BRAND the more thorough the testing.
This is just as much about brand protection as it is about consumer protection.
So yes Campbell's does thorough QC tests on every batch of soup and samples cans from that batch run and checks them. (They also have processes to thoroughly clean each can before filling and scanning each can for foreign objects)

This can get even more complicated when you realize that Campbell's soup has ingredients sourced from other vendors
Thing is most bad product never leaves the plant.
Most modern recalls are manufacturer initiated and don't amount to anything other than BRAND protection (i.e just to be on the safe side).

HAACP is a process for protecting against this very thing--tracking and traceability of not only the final product but all of the component ingredients of that product.

So yes it is not at all unreasonable to (eventually) expect that every batch of eliquid is tested for whatever is determined it should be tested for---IF YOU INTEND TO SELL IT COMMERCIALLY.

If you DIY (assuming that the ingredients--namely nicotine--will not end up as a controlled substance) then you can put piss if your juice if you wanna (though it's flavor profile will be poor...or so I've heard)

Campbell Recalls Soup In 5 States After SpaghettiOs Mix Up. That was not mere brand protection, but a mix-up. And like I said before, human error will happen when humans are involved. Granted, it is nice to know that there are safeguards in place if one has to eat Spaghetti-Os, but did those safeguards show up in time for everyone? I enjoyed your post and it is quite lucid, but I fail to see any market that is regulated and free of risks.

p.s. I know a vendor that sells piss juice if you want to try it.

 

[seminolewind]

under the heading be careful what you wish for.

its nice that nic production is ramping up here in the USA.

on the other hand that will make it really easy for the FDA to ban
all imports of nic base. then we would have the proverbial choke
point.
regards
mike

5-6 years ago, CASAA formed about the time that the FDA illegally held a shipment of nic liquid. It was decided that what they did was illegal . Be careful what is wished for. Back then, China imported liquid was 99% of what was available.

It would be great to have some kind of approval system . But I'd like to see it come from within. I don't think good reputable suppliers would be against having their liquid tested periodically.

I just really don't like seeing Chinese imports being bashed because it was a Chinese doctor that created this, and also supplied most or all of the Liquid and no one batted an eye.

 

[stevegmu]

There is no such thing as anything being risk free, but some regulations do help prevent or catch what could be far worse incidents...

 

[Mr.Mann]

There is no such thing as anything being risk free, but some regulations do help prevent or catch what could be far worse incidents...

True. And some regulations will dismantle an industry.

 

[crxess]

There is no such thing as anything being risk free, but some regulations do help prevent or catch what could be far worse incidents...

I agree, same as No Law would bring total anarchy in a heartbeat.

The real questions is - What is SOME?
Who decides?

Surely not the average citizen. We can't make up our minds how much we need. That is where everything gets twisted to suite those with the money, not knowledge or logic, Money to steer regulation to suit their personal agendas.

 

[Krashman Von Stinkputin]

Campbell Recalls Soup In 5 States After SpaghettiOs Mix Up. That was not mere brand protection, but a mix-up. And like I said before, human error will happen when humans are involved. Granted, it is nice to know that there are safeguards in place if one has to eat Spaghetti-Os, but did those safeguards show up in time for everyone? I enjoyed your post and it is quite lucid, but I fail to see any market that is regulated and free of risks.

Sorry if I implied RISK FREE.
In my industry we never use the term FAIL SAFE because it doesn't exist. (We use the term---and design to---CONTROL RELIABILITY--failing to a state we know)


I'll pick a nit here----were the Spaghetti-O's contaminated? Seems like they were perfectly edible. Someone didn't change the labeler on the canning line (the human error). It was brand protection: When Campbell's sells a product as Chicken Broth the customer should expect Chicken Broth NOT Spaghetti-Os

I'm approaching this from the standpoint of something extremely rare: an entirely new emergent industry with zero regulations (Well there is one--you can't call an ecig a smoking cessation device).

The first time I walked in a vape shop and ordered some juices, the clerk disappeared behind a curtain and emerged 5 minutes later, handing me a group of bottles with liquid in them.
I asked and was told: she was not a pharmacist, not a chemist, had no Health inspection requirement. The only license she was required to have was a Merchant's License.
It dawned on me that for all I know she put toilet water and kool-aid in them.

I think applying the standards THAT ALREADY EXIST for everything else we consume is not unreasonable (and in fact is inevitable).

Especially when you consider that if I swallow a whole can of Spaghetti-O's all I'll get is a WORSE case of gas than I already have.
If I swallow a whole bottle of eliquid the end result is a bit more lethal. (Although my gas IS pretty lethal)

 

[stevegmu]

True. And some regulations will dismantle an industry.

The guys making basement brew who can't test for dangerous substances or levels of dangerous substances shouldn't be in business...

 

[Mr.Mann]

Sorry if I implied RISK FREE.
In my industry we never use the term FAIL SAFE because it doesn't exist. (We use the term---and design to---CONTROL RELIABILITY--failing to a state we know)


I'll pick a nit here----were the Spaghetti-O's contaminated? Seems like they were perfectly edible. Someone didn't change the labeler on the canning line (the human error). It was brand protection: When Campbell's sells a product as Chicken Broth the customer should expect Chicken Broth NOT Spaghetti-Os

I'm approaching this from the standpoint of something extremely rare: an entirely new emergent industry with zero regulations (Well there is one--you can't call an ecig a smoking cessation device).

The first time I walked in a vape shop and ordered some juices, the clerk disappeared behind a curtain and emerged 5 minutes later, handing me a group of bottles with liquid in them.
I asked and was told: she was not a pharmacist, not a chemist, had no Health inspection requirement. The only license she was required to have was a Merchant's License.
It dawned on me that for all I know she put toilet water and kool-aid in them.

I think applying the standards THAT ALREADY EXIST for everything else we consume is not unreasonable (and in fact is inevitable).

Especially when you consider that if I swallow a whole can of Spaghetti-O's all I'll get is a WORSE case of gas than I already have.
If I swallow a whole bottle of eliquid the end result is a bit more lethal. (Although my gas IS pretty lethal)

You ever eat out? For all I know, that waitress brought my child a real Daiquiri, not a virgin Daiquiri.

Swallow a whole bottle of eliquid? Are you saying eliquid should not be sold? I mean, that is the argument from tobacco companies -- keep it in a carto and out of an "open system."

You state your case well, but I still maintain that our option is to have it how we have now, or to say goodbye to vaping -- unless you consider cig-a-like/disposables to be vaping. I used to, but it won't work for me now. And now we do have options to buy from vendors with high standards (many of which I buy from), or from vendors without high standards (many of which I was PIFed liquid from. LOL).

 

[Mr.Mann]

The guys making basement brew who can't test for dangerous substances or levels of dangerous substances shouldn't be in business...

Would you be willing to cut them out at the risk of taking out all the vendors on the up and up, and only leaving tobacco company "vaping" products?

 

[ItTechy]

What's all this talk about endangered feces? Old SNL Gilda Radner as Emily Latela

Emily, EMILY!

That's endangered SPECIES!

Oh...Oh...NEVER MIND!

Sorry I couldn't resist!

I agree to disagree with both sides about everything, there that should make it clear as milk!

As cheery as an over cast day!

As warm as Antarctica!

Lets face it, there will be standards in place for cleanliness, just like any other supplier that manufactures ANYTHING for human consumption, be it food, drugs, etc.

I read this entire post and it's comments, and there are many good points!

One thing I noticed is one person made the comment that many e liquid bases may not be getting their nicotine from reputable sources?

Again, some regulations are necessary, while many that are perhaps imposed will not be...

As I have posted repeatedly, it is our responsibility to vote wisely, to elect people that we think will REALLY represent us , and not to keep re-electing career politicians who most of could care less about anyone except themselves!