It's amazing that people are still vaping away without any concern and continue to support these suppliers in defiance to anyone who questions them. To each his own I guess.
Ask your favorite suppliers to remove diacetyl from their e-liquids!
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It's amazing that people are still vaping away without any concern and continue to support these suppliers in defiance to anyone who questions them. To each his own I guess.
Fernand, I don't know how I missed your post on possible outcomes to the "what next" scenario.
In short, I believe "the industry" needs to start acting as an industry rather than a few cowboys with a good source for bottles and flavorings. The only thing I can see happening that will help to make juice as safe as possible will be the formation of a US trade association, such as ECITA abroad.
While I see vendors treating concerned consumers as the enemy, they need to realize that the "enemy" to their business is not the consumer, but the FDA, the court of public opinion, the tobacco industry, and big pharma. (With enemies like that, it seems odd to alienate, or let's be blunt, risk harm to your friends.)
The creation of a strong trade association would not only allow safety information to be studied and shared, but allow growth for the industry as a whole as they come together on certain issues to help create a better - not just safer - product. Not to mention networking, product expos, co-op large scale advertising, and most important, a voice. Make that a Voice.
It seems like such a no-brainer. But, lets go back to those cowboys mentioned above. They seem to care about one thing and one thing only - putting their juice/mods/equipment at the frontline of sales. And that's great - entrepreneurship at its finest. But at what cost?
I mean, I haven't even scratched the surface of how wrong this industry is right now. Weights and measures - these sellers are selling by volume. Want to take a guess if they've been inspected by their Dept. of Agriculture (my state's weights and measures regulatory board) to ensure volume standards are being met? (Not judging by recent shorted-juice threads.) What about overall cleanliness of mixing areas? My state requires a separate kitchen if I were to market and sell my completely fabulous apple pie - not much different than making an e-juice. But who do we think is regulating this? No one, period, because sellers are doing their level best to remain under the radar. There was a post not long ago asking vendors to show their mixing areas. What do you think happened to that thread? Yeah, if you guessed "it got buried in fangirl/boy stuff" you'd be right.
Read this Wall Street Journal article on e-cigarettes and pay close attention to the gross sales numbers being admitted to. Hell, take a look at this quote from that article: "If the government tries to suppress this, it will go underground," says David Dettloff, 48, owner of FreedomSmokeUSA, a Tucson, Ariz., seller of e-cigarette juices. "Ninety percent of everyone who vapes is so glad to be off cigarettes that they would buy it in the drug market."
Read what you will into that, but I've drawn my own conclusions about the intent and thought-process behind that quote.
So, why do I think I'm doing anyone any good by continuing the diacetyl / acetyl propionyl discussions going? Because not only is it a risk I personally am not willing to take, it points to the larger problems "the industry" faces if it continues to stick its head in the sand and pretend all of these issues will go away. I once owned a business that was grossing over $250K a year - small potatoes compared to the numbers from the WSJ article - and let me assure you that Biggie Smalls was right - Mo' money, Mo' problems. The lens doesn't pull back once you begin making serious money, it zooms in for better focus. (Let me also tell you, full-scale IRS Audits are scary, even when you know your accounting was solid.)
All of these discussions, imo, serve one ultimate purpose - to jar these individual vendors into becoming something trustworthy. Something that can withstand public scrutiny. Something that can ultimately succeed in the long-term, not just pad their pockets right now.
In short, I believe "the industry" needs to start acting as an industry rather than a few cowboys with a good source for bottles and flavorings. The only thing I can see happening that will help to make juice as safe as possible will be the formation of a US trade association, such as ECITA abroad.
While I see vendors treating concerned consumers as the enemy, they need to realize that the "enemy" to their business is not the consumer, but the FDA, the court of public opinion, the tobacco industry, and big pharma. (With enemies like that, it seems odd to alienate, or let's be blunt, risk harm to your friends.)
The creation of a strong trade association would not only allow safety information to be studied and shared, but allow growth for the industry as a whole as they come together on certain issues to help create a better - not just safer - product. Not to mention networking, product expos, co-op large scale advertising, and most important, a voice. Make that a Voice.
It seems like such a no-brainer. But, lets go back to those cowboys mentioned above. They seem to care about one thing and one thing only - putting their juice/mods/equipment at the frontline of sales. And that's great - entrepreneurship at its finest. But at what cost?
I mean, I haven't even scratched the surface of how wrong this industry is right now. Weights and measures - these sellers are selling by volume. Want to take a guess if they've been inspected by their Dept. of Agriculture (my state's weights and measures regulatory board) to ensure volume standards are being met? (Not judging by recent shorted-juice threads.) What about overall cleanliness of mixing areas? My state requires a separate kitchen if I were to market and sell my completely fabulous apple pie - not much different than making an e-juice. But who do we think is regulating this? No one, period, because sellers are doing their level best to remain under the radar. There was a post not long ago asking vendors to show their mixing areas. What do you think happened to that thread? Yeah, if you guessed "it got buried in fangirl/boy stuff" you'd be right.
Read this Wall Street Journal article on e-cigarettes and pay close attention to the gross sales numbers being admitted to. Hell, take a look at this quote from that article: "If the government tries to suppress this, it will go underground," says David Dettloff, 48, owner of FreedomSmokeUSA, a Tucson, Ariz., seller of e-cigarette juices. "Ninety percent of everyone who vapes is so glad to be off cigarettes that they would buy it in the drug market."
Read what you will into that, but I've drawn my own conclusions about the intent and thought-process behind that quote.
So, why do I think I'm doing anyone any good by continuing the diacetyl / acetyl propionyl discussions going? Because not only is it a risk I personally am not willing to take, it points to the larger problems "the industry" faces if it continues to stick its head in the sand and pretend all of these issues will go away. I once owned a business that was grossing over $250K a year - small potatoes compared to the numbers from the WSJ article - and let me assure you that Biggie Smalls was right - Mo' money, Mo' problems. The lens doesn't pull back once you begin making serious money, it zooms in for better focus. (Let me also tell you, full-scale IRS Audits are scary, even when you know your accounting was solid.)
All of these discussions, imo, serve one ultimate purpose - to jar these individual vendors into becoming something trustworthy. Something that can withstand public scrutiny. Something that can ultimately succeed in the long-term, not just pad their pockets right now.
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Just wanted to quote this because I think it is such a good and obvious idea that it deserved to be highlighted from your longer post.
Reasonable self-policing, self-regulation, and information sharing within an industry is the absolute best way to stave of government interference. Successful industries simply do not operate in a wild west environment in modern America. Safety practices need to be standardized, and consumers need to be given relevant information to making an informed decision. This will happen in any growing industry at some point. The industry can either coalesce together and try to establish standards and information that they self-impose -- which will be standards drafted by mostly reasonable people, who understand the industry and want to see it thrive -- or else it is almost inevitable that detached bureaucrats will impose potentially draconian and unreasonable standards for them.
Even where it becomes impossible to stave off government interest completely, an industry with a strong and unified message from a single source will be better equipped to work together with government officials and make sure that any regulatory actions are reasonable, well-crafted, and fair for the operation of that industry. Turtling up in isolation and praying that nothing happens simply isn't an option. After all, if as this thread demonstrates a substantial number of members in a community that wholeheartedly supports the industry and maintains close and sometimes personal relationships with vendors can work up outrage over the lack of standardization and lack of disclosure, how do you think federal bureaucrats are going to react when they inevitably begin to look into things and find that NO concerted efforts have been made towards addressing these things?
Speaking with a unified voice, both in terms of consistency as well as lobbying power, is also important, for the reasons stated above and otherwise.
And there are of course the non-regulatory benefits you mentioned like the power of trade expos, advertising, and general advancement of innovation. Not to turn this into a china bashing post, but I for one would LOVE to see the development of a robust domestic e-cig industry that largely doesn't need to depend on China for parts. Soup to nuts products. The burgeoning mod community and increasingly high quality and value of american made e-liquids are just the tip of the iceberg. I think a unified industry would help spur innovation even further.
I'd be interested to see who among vendors supports the creation of this kind of trade organization.
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Shan, disclosure re: toxins -- yes.
Playing at being policeman --no.
There's a fine tradition of anarchy in this country and it's what distinguishes us from many others. Leave people alone. If you are out there demanding and complaining, you ARE the enemy, and that's what the "I have a right to take chances" crowd is reacting to. It's not that standards are inappropriate, it's that disciplinarians are not people I like.
Playing at being policeman --no.
There's a fine tradition of anarchy in this country and it's what distinguishes us from many others. Leave people alone. If you are out there demanding and complaining, you ARE the enemy, and that's what the "I have a right to take chances" crowd is reacting to. It's not that standards are inappropriate, it's that disciplinarians are not people I like.
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Well, I doubt it will be for long. You can't buy ANYTHING without seller including ingredient list on the bottle. I am not talking just about food products or drugstore items that we inhale either (that should be a no-brainer) but anything liquid; household cleaners, pet items etc, have a detailed ingredient list. It's kind of crazy that you know more about what you are feeding your gerbil or putting in your fishtank than your lungs.
Just wait till there is a problem and someone's kid swallows this and Dr. has to call poison control; the first thing they are going to ask for is the bottle with ingredient list. Nicotene warning is not enough. What if it's no nic? You still need to know what's in it if someone swallows it.
I am sure there is a law mandating ingredient lists as I doubt all manufacturers are providing this voluntarily for the heck of it. It's just a matter of time before something happens and one of these vendors may find themselves in a heap of trouble....I don't know why they would take that chance. Also, I didn't know there were vendors resisting reporting until this was brought up on the boards. That makes no sense.
If you read a label for ingredients you will almost always see "natural and/or artificial flavor". That is the category that these chemicals fall under.
No, not OT at all Kpax, I should have worded my post better. I was referring to labels such as food, drink, etc. Diacetyl and related chems are food flavorings and perfectly safe to ingest in that manner, it's inhaling them in a vapor form that is dangerous. But even in food it isn't required to be listed in ingredients other than being called natural and artificial flavors.
Thanks Bovinia, I get what you are saying now.
All of this stuff is really important and not "fear mongering" whether people want to realize it or not.
Personal Story but On Topic: I had lung XRays 1/10. Everything fine EXCEPT Dr saw what looked like calcium deposits scattered over my lungs (24 yr smoker) He said he did not think it was from smoking. He asked if I was exposed to asbestos or any other chemicals. Also if I had pneumonia repeatedly. No to all (I have only vaped for 2 mos so not relevant) He sent away for cancer screening and it came back negative.
I am bringing this up as the one "scare" I had most likely had nothing to do with cigarettes miraculously but some foreign chemical or irritation that caused these deposits.
I just want to give all of you credit for participating in this discussion. Some others would totally change their tune if their own health would actually be affected.
All of this stuff is really important and not "fear mongering" whether people want to realize it or not.
Personal Story but On Topic: I had lung XRays 1/10. Everything fine EXCEPT Dr saw what looked like calcium deposits scattered over my lungs (24 yr smoker) He said he did not think it was from smoking. He asked if I was exposed to asbestos or any other chemicals. Also if I had pneumonia repeatedly. No to all (I have only vaped for 2 mos so not relevant) He sent away for cancer screening and it came back negative.
I am bringing this up as the one "scare" I had most likely had nothing to do with cigarettes miraculously but some foreign chemical or irritation that caused these deposits.
I just want to give all of you credit for participating in this discussion. Some others would totally change their tune if their own health would actually be affected.
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Thank you for sharing your personal story Kpax. That must have been a very frightening time for you and thank goodness your tests came back negative!
I know this is a long thread but there is some very good info here. Please educate yourself as much as you can on this topic and try to vape as safely as possible
Don't be afraid to email your juice vendors and ask about diacetyl in their flavors. It's your money and your health! If you are treated as if your questions are not taken seriously...take your business elsewhere.
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Shan, I was just trying to explain the sentiment.
We will probably all look back nostalgically at the good old days when little mom & pop mail order outfits made mods out of Radio Shack parts and mixed up vape in the kitchen, before things got all sterile and uptight.
re: ingredients, Bovinia is right, and there is something about even MSDS info not required for industrial products if under 3%. It's what OSHA was saying re: diacetyl in flavoring.
And I really feel asking the juice vendors about diacetyl is a lot like asking the guy who pumps gas whether the gasoline contains isovalerate heptoglycol, they're not the ones to ask. If it's intended as a strategy to spread the word, it might make sense, but I hope at least we wouldn't expect much of an answer. The flavor makers often don't know either, but we can agree that it's fair that they should.
We will probably all look back nostalgically at the good old days when little mom & pop mail order outfits made mods out of Radio Shack parts and mixed up vape in the kitchen, before things got all sterile and uptight.
re: ingredients, Bovinia is right, and there is something about even MSDS info not required for industrial products if under 3%. It's what OSHA was saying re: diacetyl in flavoring.
And I really feel asking the juice vendors about diacetyl is a lot like asking the guy who pumps gas whether the gasoline contains isovalerate heptoglycol, they're not the ones to ask. If it's intended as a strategy to spread the word, it might make sense, but I hope at least we wouldn't expect much of an answer. The flavor makers often don't know either, but we can agree that it's fair that they should.
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I don't really agree with this analogy in full. If you were talking the Dekang premixed stuff, yeah, I could maybe see it, but if you're talking all the vendors with their custom mixes, then, no, it is not an appropriate analogy. As a matter of fact, it should be their responsibility to know what's in the stuff they are branding for people to inhale.
Using your consumer analogies, it is more akin to going out to dinner. The waitress may not necessarily know what's in the creme brulee, but the guy mixing it up in the kitchen sure as heck better know.
Sims, I don't know if you missed some discussions. The juice mixers use bottled flavors and know nothing about the contents. The flavor-makers like Capella, Lorann etc, buy from a handful of behind the scenes "flavorlabs" and bottle under their label, e.g. Lorann. Most flavorings consist of a dozen or two dozen chemicals. We don't know which flavor-makers, if any, make their own flavors from raw chemicals. In a few cases flavor-makers have developed the flavors in cooperation with the flavorlabs and know the complete breakdown. In most cases they don't know the composition, they order a "green apple" and at most request a custom modification, e.g. "make it a little sweeter". The flavorlabs don't reveal formulations to their often competing customers, they protect them from each other, and try to give each satisfaction. Because of looming liability, the flavorlabs increasingly demand assurance from the flavor-makers that they will be sold only for food use, and that is by far the bigger market. The flavor-makers who sell to the vape market are in a tricky situation and will probably post more and more disclaimers. They can only obtain full contents listing from the flavorlabs on special request, and mentioning vaping is questionable, if not out of the question. This complex situation results in delays and incomplete disclosures even with the best intentions. Asking the juice-mixers is completely pointless, you may as well ask the family dog.
WOAH..wait a minute there Fernand...
The "juice mixers" should not be mixing\selling a product that they have no information about...period. The "juice mixers" are making a killing by producing juices that contain harmful chemicals. Let's not try to deflect the blame...if a "juice mixer" has no idea about the chemicals they are using...they should not be using them.... Where are you going with this???
The "juice mixers" should not be mixing\selling a product that they have no information about...period. The "juice mixers" are making a killing by producing juices that contain harmful chemicals. Let's not try to deflect the blame...if a "juice mixer" has no idea about the chemicals they are using...they should not be using them.... Where are you going with this???
The funky world is NEWS to you? I'm telling you the reality, and explaining why. That's a lot. You can deal with what the world should be like.
You see, the blame and fingerpointing are what people instinctively feel in many of the posts here. Hence they dismiss it all as the paranoid thinking of a bunch of "do-gooders". And the result of your moralizing is that a serious issue that people should be aware of is not getting through. Shame on you!
If you're going to address all the irresponsibilities and wrongs, maybe start with that one!
You see, the blame and fingerpointing are what people instinctively feel in many of the posts here. Hence they dismiss it all as the paranoid thinking of a bunch of "do-gooders". And the result of your moralizing is that a serious issue that people should be aware of is not getting through. Shame on you!
If you're going to address all the irresponsibilities and wrongs, maybe start with that one!
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Fernand I hear what you are saying but I'm not totally convinced that this is the case. At least not with all thew flavor suppliers. Our juice vendors "should" be the ones hounding them for information, not us. But you are correct that this isn't a perfect world. Capella has a lab, that means they have MSDS on their flavors. Our juice vendors can request the MSDS.
I'm not arguing with you that flavor manufacturers don't want to release trade secrets but someone somewhere along the line needs to take responsibility here. If Capella or PA or FA don't want to take responsibility then the should not have a single word about e-juice on their sites. You speak as if you have some kind of inside information that the rest of us are not privy to. Is that where you are coming from?
I'm not arguing with you that flavor manufacturers don't want to release trade secrets but someone somewhere along the line needs to take responsibility here. If Capella or PA or FA don't want to take responsibility then the should not have a single word about e-juice on their sites. You speak as if you have some kind of inside information that the rest of us are not privy to. Is that where you are coming from?
Saying that many companies' owners/employees are ignorant is probably true. However, the best business strategy is probably to simply slap "Our flavors don't contain Diacetyl" somewhere and go on. While it is true that a person starting a small e-cig (or any other) business is usually more of a businessman than a biomedical engineer or chemist, it's still probably a bad strategy to sell something that could easily be deadly if you know about it. I'm not really a businessman by any stretch of the imagination, so correct me if I'm wrong.
What I personally would want is for the makers of the liquid to at least attempt to learn about their product and try to cut potential hazards just in case. Idealistic? Maybe.
Perhaps imagine a situation where you were making non-profit liquid for a few locals, and they really liked your Butter Cream Yogurt mix. Then one of them asks you about Diacetyl / Acetyl Propionyl. Do you tell him it's full of the stuff, tell him there is none in the mix privately, tell all of the locals it's full of it, or tell them all there is none in it? Then imagine the scenario with huge profits on the line. It's not all that important what you decide, whatever it might say about your character, but customers would hope and often assume that their supplier would do the right thing.
I'm honestly not sure what you are addressing anymore Fernand, but saying 'shame on you' for moralizing really takes me back, to a time when I started dreaming of electronic cigarettes completely replacing analogs one day. Sure I have my personal reasons for disliking cigarettes, but who doesn't? This might seem off topic, but preferring e-cigs and wanting it to stay is why we are here on this forum, in this thread, debating this topic. A jaded, abstract, and one might say demoralizing picture of the difficulty of the current situation is an unnecessary wet blanket. There is no real point to this post, but I hope it makes people think, instead of judge. Apologies in advance if I offend you Fernand, but you got me thinking and you certainly have a unique and usually useful perspective.
What I personally would want is for the makers of the liquid to at least attempt to learn about their product and try to cut potential hazards just in case. Idealistic? Maybe.
Perhaps imagine a situation where you were making non-profit liquid for a few locals, and they really liked your Butter Cream Yogurt mix. Then one of them asks you about Diacetyl / Acetyl Propionyl. Do you tell him it's full of the stuff, tell him there is none in the mix privately, tell all of the locals it's full of it, or tell them all there is none in it? Then imagine the scenario with huge profits on the line. It's not all that important what you decide, whatever it might say about your character, but customers would hope and often assume that their supplier would do the right thing.
I'm honestly not sure what you are addressing anymore Fernand, but saying 'shame on you' for moralizing really takes me back, to a time when I started dreaming of electronic cigarettes completely replacing analogs one day. Sure I have my personal reasons for disliking cigarettes, but who doesn't? This might seem off topic, but preferring e-cigs and wanting it to stay is why we are here on this forum, in this thread, debating this topic. A jaded, abstract, and one might say demoralizing picture of the difficulty of the current situation is an unnecessary wet blanket. There is no real point to this post, but I hope it makes people think, instead of judge. Apologies in advance if I offend you Fernand, but you got me thinking and you certainly have a unique and usually useful perspective.
No. Shame on you for making a consumer feel guilty for demanding industry standards. We are not all chemists, nor are we experts in medicine. For you to believe that consumers should do all the calculations, while allowing the industry (for some reason) to get away with not following any kind of regulation...I don't even know what to say.
The vendors can communicate much more easily with their manufacturers than we can. Why not start with them? Why is this a consumer job?
And in terms of policing the industry...the rules and Acts aren't there as a suggestion. They are there as law. And the industry can't "choose" to follow them or not. I realize you have a problem with "accusations" but this has seriously gone too far. Why on earth should customers have to do several calculations, and an enourmous amount of research before they purchase a product? Why is this industry exempt? Please enlighten me.
I have come to respect some of what you say. But when you bring the conversation back to consumer responsibility, while negating any industry responsibility, we differ greatly in opinion.
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I'm all for idealism, and I love vaping. I think we have a neat little community. That means I have zero interest in posturing and harming the community. I'd like vapers to be cautious and well-informed. I've gone to the sources and to people who know what I want to learn. I'm telling you much of what I've learned. People are hemmed in by constraints, but generally mean well. Effective tactics work and enlist people. Read that sentence again. I must not be doing it right. Divisive accusations lead ... to conflict, not results. But lots can be done to make things better. You know how? Please do.
Panini, what Acts and rules did you have in mind? Here's a useful one, though it requires a number of relative harm calculations: "first, do no harm."
Panini, what Acts and rules did you have in mind? Here's a useful one, though it requires a number of relative harm calculations: "first, do no harm."
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