Ask your favorite suppliers to remove diacetyl from their e-liquids!

[MrNate]

You can do what you like as long as it follows the rules. The trouble with this subject is that it has generated a very emotional response, the consequence of which is that accusations are flung around, and the Forum Manage will rightly not tolerate this escalation of a simple debate. You just need to have people responding to your post stay civil and reasonable.

From a personal point of view, all e-liquid suppliers are equally guilty, as none have published any proper analyses, despite the very low cost of doing this for a large business (though we could be more charitable in the case of smaller businesses). Therefore it does not make any sense to single out any particular flavor - and therefore supplier - as being more culpable than any other.

I think it likely that such a thread would soon start to go over the line, with mod edits, deletions, and infractions to follow. However we are just inducting a new group of Mods and they might need something to cut their teeth on.

As for 'factual information', this seems a little optimistic in the circumstances.

So, theoretically yes, but since people are... what they are, likely not.

Factual information exists. Right now. We have some. We don't have enough to draw certain specific conclusions that we would like to draw, but we have some data. I'm just saying it would be nice to have that all collected and organized for easy digestion outside of the kerfuffle of rigorous philosophical debate.

 

[player30]

I have posted on Halo's forum, & Jay assured me that he has never used it, even before it became an issue.

Just ask your juice maker, and if they won't tell you, then don't buy it.

 

[n2xe]

I've followed this thread with great interest and spent the past 5 days researching the topic. One thing I've learned is to never trust a journalist as they don't understand statistics or science. I've dug up the published pier reviewed papers on the subject.

I've concluded there is reason to be concerned. Bronciolitis obliterans seems to be correlated with diacetyl exposure. High exposure (about 5 to 100 times more than vapers would see), have 5 times the incidence of the disease. To put that in perspective that would be less than 1 in 100 people vs 2 in 1000 people for the general population. Smokers will get lung cancer at the rate of about 15 in 100 so bronciolitis obliterans happening is an order of magnitude less (10 times).

The disease doesn't happen all at once--you have congestion and difficulty breathing for a good while before you need a lung transplant. But it can come on quickly (a few months).

Given the number of folks on this forum and given that everyone reports greatly improved lung function after ditching the analogs, I'm not worried. If e liquids were a problem, we have a large enough sample size that we would hear about it.

 

[warbdan]

I have posted on Halo's forum, & Jay assured me that he has never used it, even before it became an issue.

Just ask your juice maker, and if they won't tell you, then don't buy it.

Yep, Jay has been very cool about this. Halo is good too!

 

[MrNate]

I've followed this thread with great interest and spent the past 5 days researching the topic. One thing I've learned is to never trust a journalist as they don't understand statistics or science. I've dug up the published pier reviewed papers on the subject.

I've concluded there is reason to be concerned. Bronciolitis obliterans seems to be correlated with diacetyl exposure. High exposure (about 5 to 100 times more than vapers would see), have 5 times the incidence of the disease. To put that in perspective that would be less than 1 in 100 people vs 2 in 1000 people for the general population. Smokers will get lung cancer at the rate of about 15 in 100 so bronciolitis obliterans happening is an order of magnitude less (10 times).

The disease doesn't happen all at once--you have congestion and difficulty breathing for a good while before you need a lung transplant. But it can come on quickly (a few months).

Given the number of folks on this forum and given that everyone reports greatly improved lung function after ditching the analogs, I'm not worried. If e liquids were a problem, we have a large enough sample size that we would hear about it.

Thanks for the info! Do you happen to have any sources you can cite, specifically the incidence in the population at large and how you determined that high exposure is 5-100x what vapers would see? Also for the 15% incidence of lung cancer in smokers. I seem to recall it being 25%, but I could be mistaken.

Note: I do not wish to debate any of the points you raised. I would just like to see the data you saw if possible.

 

[n2xe]

SKAPP :: Case Studies in Science Policy :: Documents Related to Popcorn Workers Lung

Lots of good information on that link. As far as lung cancer rates, I've seen 7 to 20% quoted so I spilt the difference

 

[DC2]

High exposure (about 5 to 100 times more than vapers would see), have 5 times the incidence of the disease.

I am always interested to see how people determine how much we might be getting exposed to.
So far I have seen two different people make serious attempts at determining that.

How did you go about it?

 

[MrNate]

SKAPP :: Case Studies in Science Policy :: Documents Related to Popcorn Workers Lung

Lots of good information on that link. As far as lung cancer rates, I've seen 7 to 20% quoted so I spilt the difference

Thanks! I'll have a look.

 

[n2xe]

I am always interested to see how people determine how much we might be getting exposed to.
So far I have seen two different people make serious attempts at determining that.

How did you go about it?

I took the exposure from page 1 on this thread and compared it to the 9ppm that the reports say. The food flavoring employee sees it for 8 hours a day and I put some impossible windage on the number for a theoretical chain vaper to worst case it. Although, I don't think anyone continuously vapes yogurt juice for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. And by continuous, I mean every breath is a vapor hit.

 

[DC2]

I took the exposure from page 1 on this thread and compared it to the 9ppm that the reports say. The food flavoring employee sees it for 8 hours a day and I put some impossible windage on the number for a theoretical chain vaper to worst case it. Although, I don't think anyone continuously vapes yogurt juice for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. And by continuous, I mean every breath is a vapor hit.

Here are two other people who have done the math...
More optimistic: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-liquids-safety-discussion-3.html#post2031074
Less optimistic: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ety-regulations-my-ranting-3.html#post2144836

I'd be interested to see what you think of their work as compared to yours.

 

[n2xe]

I think the more optimistic calculation is more realistic. The bottom line is that inhaled diacetly is dangerous, avoid it. However, from what I've read and the calculations I've done, I personally don't see it as a huge issue. That said, I don't vape English Toffee or Cappucchio that I loved and bought in great quantity. I personally can't see how any juice vendor would sell anything with diacetyl in it even if the risk is low. Even more interesting is that all the case studies I read involved non-smokers. Maybe us ex-smokers are hardier, who knows?

When I first heard about diacetly, I thought it was BS. Reading the published articles, I've concluded that there is a strong correlation to diacetly exposure and "popcorn lung". I'm an electrical engineer but i know the difference between correlation and causality. Diacetly and popcorn lung have a causal relationship so why screw around with it?

 

[DC2]

I think the more optimistic calculation is more realistic.

I'd really be interested in your critique of the methods used in the previously noted calculations.
It would be interesting to see how you came to your conclusions.

Your thought process and reasons for agreeing with one set of calculations over the other set is what I'm hoping to see.
And I have no doubt that getting at the finer distinctions (details) would be illuminating for many following this thread.

With such an important topic as this, looking at the details from different angles is critical.

 

[youngll11]

What about Blackwoods Brew? I just fell in love with their peach juice. Thanks

 

[player30]

You need to ask BWB if there is any in it. I have never used BWB.

 

[Xhale12]

How do you like 100% VG liquid?

You can do what you like as long as it follows the rules. The trouble with this subject is that it has generated a very emotional response, the consequence of which is that accusations are flung around, and the Forum Manager will rightly not tolerate this escalation of a simple debate. You just need to have people responding to your post stay civil and reasonable.

From a personal point of view, all e-liquid suppliers are equally guilty, as none have published any proper analyses, despite the very low cost of doing this for a large business (though we could be more charitable in the case of smaller businesses). Therefore it does not make any sense to single out any particular flavor - and therefore supplier - as being more culpable than any other.

I think it likely that such a thread would soon start to go over the line, with Mod edits, deletions, and infractions to follow. However we are just inducting a new group of Mods and they might need something to cut their teeth on.

As for 'factual information', this seems a little optimistic in the circumstances.

 

[rolygate]

Do you mean, do I think it's a good idea, or what? Sorry, not clear on your exact question.

 

[Free2BeMe]

What about Blackwoods Brew? I just fell in love with their peach juice. Thanks

F.A.Q.

 

[VanderVape]

Ok so I have read most of this post and simply have to say that we all have the right to know what juices have diacetyl in them. I liked how one supplier came out and posted the ones of his that have it in it. Its called being honest anf fair to your consumers.

Look its simple I have always had lung issues and had noticed that my chest has been feeling tight when I vape certain flavors. Now that I know what is causing me to feel like I have smoked a pack and a half of analogs, I am going to have to make sure that my juices, and my partners juices don't have this in it. I quit smoking and started vaping to live longer and be healthier. Kinda defeats the purpose of quitting smoking in the first place. I was killing myself then, and still killing myself now.

Oh and before anyone thinks about getting on their high horse and telling me that the air we breathe is killing us, I will simply tell you this...

With the health issues I have being able to choose some of what I put into my body makes me feel that much healthier and better. Honestly a good feeling day is far and few between. I turned to something that I thought was healthy, then found out that there was a hidden ingrediant that is making me feel worse in some of the juices. Back on to research I go to make sure the juices I buy from here on out are free from this.

Oh and really I don't think its to much to ask for a supplier to have all their juices tested and post the results to every single one.

 

[Edwv30]

Well said VanderVape. To your health!

 

[VanderVape]

Well said VanderVape. To your health!

Thank you. Just being honest