• This forum has been archived

    If you'd like to post a thread, post it here instead!

    View Forum

Bible Q & A Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

Southern Gent

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 18, 2009
778
32
60
Tennessee
Gnostics:
I. In general they believed:
A. Matter is evil and spirit is good,
B. No resurrection of the dead,
C. Christ did not come in the flesh, and
D. God is in heaven and has no contact with the world.

II. Gnosticism WAS NOT a homogeneous system of either religion or philosophy. It actually consisted of many groups holding different opinions drawn from a great variety of sources.

III. The Gnostic replaced the question, "What must I do to be saved," with other questions requiring special knowledge such as:
A. What is the origin of evil?
B. How is the primitive order of the universe to be restored?

IV. They addressed the problems of:
A. God and the universe,
B. God and providence,
C. Christ,
D. Intermediaries,
E. Redemption, and
F. Revelation.

V. The Gnostic understood salvation to be the "knowing" of these questions and problems along with others. But they also had to know their answers.

VI. For a time Christians had referred to themselves as "true gnostics" with the implication that through Christ they had learned the true wisdom.

VII. Many Christians were led away by their teachings.
VIII. Gnosticism reached its greatest height about 150.
IX. They were finally defeated about 200 and then began forming their own societies outside the church.
X. In meeting their threats, the Christians were forced to distinguish very carefully between genuinely inspired letters and forged works as well as heretical writings.
XI. The Greek and Roman gods were identified with their beliefs.
XII. Cult practices from all parts of the empire were either adopted or adapted.
XIII. Some of their theories go way back into antiquity from Greece, Egypt, Mesopotamia and India.
XIV. Some of their beliefs can be traced back to Zoroastrianism.
XV. They pictured the spirit of man, stripped of all foreign accretions, finally reaching God. This is an idea which is comparable to the Hindu doctrine of Nirvana.
XVI. Add to the Greek mythology and philosophy, the Old and New Testaments, along with the body of apocryphal and pseudopigraphal literature (which developed immediately before and after the time of Christ) and you have the immediate
background for Gnosticism.
XVII. It appears no Gnostic group claimed any exclusiveness as opposed to any other group.
XVIII. They also adopted the Docetic teaching which claimed Christ only "seemed" to dwell in a body of flesh and blood. He only had the appearance of being human. His earthly life and the suffering on the cross were unreal.
XIX. They divided men into three categories:
A. Animals (or material men) predestined to destruction (non-Christians).
B. Psychic men who could attain salvation with the help of ordinary Christians, and
C. The spiritual men who were destined to eternal life.

XX. Jesus is the revealer of gnostic wisdom. He taught these secret traditions to the elect (apostles).
XXI. They claimed their secret knowledge was superior to the Old and New Testaments.
A. They also claimed the ordinary believer was not capable of this knowledge.
B. You could receive salvation only after you had received this special knowledge.
C. This special knowledge was based on special revelation.
D. The Gnostics, in their pride, turned the gospel into a new philosophy.
E. Gnosticism puts "knowledge" in the place of "faith."

XXII. Man was saved by specific knowledge NOT by faith; NOT general knowledge BUT knowledge of the Gnostic Myth. THIS WAS ESSENTIALLY SELF-KNOWLEDGE!

XXIII. All Gnostic teachings were a part of the redeeming knowledge which gathers together:
A. The object of knowledge (the divine nature).
B. The means of knowledge (the redeeming gnosis), and
C. The knower himself.

XXIV. Many Gnostics insisted that ignorance, not sin, was what involved a person in suffering.
XXV. Sin is not the act and the disposition of the human will in rebellion against God.
A. It is only a physical fact or quality inherent in the body and in matter everywhere.
B. Redemption, therefore, does not consist in the work of Christ for us on the cross, nor the applying of the benefits of that work by the Holy Spirit in the renewal of the man.
C. Redemption is simply each man's efforts to secure emancipation from the flesh (from physical evil).

XVI. All who had gone beyond and into Gnosis had gone beyond the church's teaching and had transcended the authority of the hierarchy.
XVII. Whoever achieves Gnosis becomes "no longer a Christian, but a Christ."
XVIII. Only one's personal experience offered the ultimate criterion of truth. AND this took precedence over all secondhand testimony and all tradition - EVEN Gnostic tradition.
IXXX. All of this is comparable to the modern Pentecostals, Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons etc. who claim guidance from the Holy Spirit apart from the Scriptures, or those who would rather be guided by their feelings rather than God's word.
XXX. Jesus was also in need of salvation in order that He might not be held back by the "deficiency in which he had been placed."
XXXI. Doctrines common to most Gnostics (from the "Gospel of Truth"):
A. Not-knowing, forgetfulness, oblivion of the Father was the "original sin."
B. Jesus is a savior, a savior by Gnosis NOT by vicarious suffering.
C. Man is saved by knowledge - "Whosoever has knowledge understands from whence he come and whither he goes."
XXXII. Their god was an ineffable, transcendent god - "Above the universe dwells the prime Father who is also called Bytthos and Chaos. He is invisible, incomprehensible, above time, and dwells unbegotten in eternal peace."
XXXIII. If an ineffable god is to have contact with a material world, it must come through a chain of intermediate beings. Each one of these intermediate being is less divine and more earthly than the one before it.
A. The lowest god in this chain of 15 pairs is the Jehovah of the Old Testament.
B. Therefore the material universe and man were created by this inferior god named Jehovah.
C. Unbeknown to Jehovah, the Ineffable God placed a spark of the divine in man (know as the "a spark of light").
D. This spark of light is described as being in "ignorance," or "oblivion," or "forgetfulness," or "drunkenness."
E. This meant that man's soul was unconscious of its true nature and destiny.
F. From this state man can be redeemed only by having the ignorance remove, the oblivion or forgetfulness changed to wakefulness and awareness, the drunkenness replace by sobriety.
G. In other words, the Gnostic must come to himself, know himself, and thus be redeemed.

XXXIV. The redemption guaranteed by gnosis is realized for the first time at physical death.
A. This is when they are actually released from their physical bodies and are able to set out on their way to their true home.
B. This is called the "ascent of the soul" or the "heavenly journey of the soul."

XXXV. The planets were often viewed as seven heavenly wardens who attempted to keep the soul from completing its journey to "bliss."
XXXVI. The soul must overcome these wardens or give the magic password which enabled it to pass on to the next sphere.
XXXVII. The Ophite Diagram:
A. The "kingdom of God" consists of pure spirit and two circles.
1. One is the Father and the other is the Son.
2. A smaller circle represents "love" as the element which draws the Son (the Urmensch) downward and so establishes the link with the intermediate kingdom.
B. The middle or intermediate kingdom is ruled by spirit and soul, and is marked by two colors [yellow for light and blue for darkness (evidently the limit of the visible cosmos)].
1. The small "circle of life" symbolizes the realm of Sophia, from which the germ of life (i.e.: the divine soul) comes to man.
2. In the rhomboid figure, "providence of Sophia (Wisdom)" is said to have stood. And within it in two intersecting circles, "knowledge (gnosis)" and "insight (synsis)", with at the intersection between them "Nature of Sophia."

C. The earthly cosmos consists of body, soul and spirit.
1. In the middle is the earth with the underworld (tartarus).
2. Around it in concentric circles are:
a. The sphere of Behemoth (named after the primeval monster of extra-biblical Jewish tradition; cf. Gen 1:1,4; Esdras 6:49;
Baruch 29:4) or the atmosphere.
b. Then the spheres of the seven planets and the circle of the serpent biting its own tail (Leviathan), the lord of the world
who gives expression to malevolent character of the cosmos.
3. Beyond these is the circle of the fixed stars in which are the signs of the zodiac and in which paradise is located. The latter is marked as the rectangle in which stand the tree of life and that of the knowledge of good and evil.
4. The "flaming, turning sword" (cf: Gen 3:24) separates paradise from the sphere of fixed stars and perhaps also symbolizes the turning of the spheres (following a passage in Philo).

XXXVIII. The Gnostic religions failed to establish a safe basis for practical morals:
A. On the one extreme, a spiritual pride obscured the sense of sin. This brought about antinomianism which often ended in sensuality and debaucheries.
B. On the other extreme, an over-strained sense of sin often led the Gnostics to ascribe nature to Satan, to abhor the body as the seat of evil, and to practice extreme asceticism.

already had this done for our Wednesday Bible class @ church
 
Last edited:

CartHeadMod

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Jan 17, 2010
640
12
73
Holland, Michigan
Men from the Catholic church decided what is in the Bible. Done basically by popularity and what they "felt" or "deemed".

Doesn't that sort of imply that God didn't have a hand in it?.....I sort of figure that if God wanted to communicate with us, he'd be smart enough to make sure WHAT he wanted to communicate with us got included.....

for example the only known copy of the Gospel of Thomas that we have today was discovered in 1945.....is there any reason it should have been included in the canon back in the third century?......
 
Last edited:

Saintscruiser

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 24, 2010
2,598
1,391
Mississippi
Okay, here is my simplified version of why the Bible has the books that it does and other books were left out. Ready?

You believe that God parted the Red Sea to allow the safe passage of the Israelites to cross on "dry ground," no less. No squishing...it was bone dry. I know what you will say, Lisa, that you believe that is what happened.

Now, since Almighty God parted the Red Sea, and orchestrated the deliverance of His children, I think He can pen and assemble a book. The hogwash that the Bible was penned by man is a grossly irreverent lie that came straight from the pit of hell itself. The Catholic Bible has 8 extra books than we do.....I think it's 8. Regardless, God has the Power to put a book together. You know me......I love to K.I.S.S.......keep it simple stupid. I don't have a problem with what Books are in THE Book, and what is left out. I may be a snot nosed kid, but that makes lots of sense to me. If a letter or book is left out, He must have His reasons. I'm okay with that.:)



Ok smarty pants! :p

I was reading the Gospel of Thomas today, and verse 27 says "If you do not fast from the world, you will not find the (Father's) kingdom. If you do not observe the sabbath as a sabbath you will not see the Father."


What's your take on that?

My favorite verse from Gospel of Thomas is "Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

I love that one because it reminds me how accessible God is to each and every one of us, at all times. All you have to do is look.

Another question: Why were some gospels included in the bible and others not?
 

lmrasch

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 21, 2010
889
43
Oregon
Southern Gent Quote: IXXX. All of this is comparable to the modern Pentecostals, Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons etc. who claim guidance from the Holy Spirit apart from the Scriptures, or those who would rather be guided by their feelings rather than God's word. End Quote

So Southern Gent...I gather from what I read above that you do not believe that the Holy Spirit can guide believers today and those that do are not following scripture?

Can you explain further what you mean by "All of this is comparable to the modern Pentecostals, Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons etc.

There are those, I being one of those Christians from the etc group, that totally believe that the Holy Spirit can and does guide us, but the bible is our plumb line to truth.
 
Last edited:

Southern Gent

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 18, 2009
778
32
60
Tennessee
Southern Gent Quote: IXXX. All of this is comparable to the modern Pentecostals, Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons etc. who claim guidance from the Holy Spirit apart from the Scriptures, or those who would rather be guided by their feelings rather than God's word. End Quote

So Southern Gent...I gather from what I read above that you do not believe that the Holy Spirit can guide believers today and those that do are not following scripture?

Can you explain further what you mean by "All of this is comparable to the modern Pentecostals, Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons etc.

There are those, I being one of those Christians from the etc group, that totally believe that the Holy Spirit can and does guide us, but the bible is our plumb line to truth.

You are reading into more than what is there. I agree that the HS can/does guide and the Bible is absolutely the plumb line. The problem with the Gnostics and "some" of the groups mentioned along with some others is the lack of use of the plumb line. Hence spirit guiding apart from the scriptures. Remember that is part of a Wednesday study...you only have the outline.
 
Last edited:

Southern Gent

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 18, 2009
778
32
60
Tennessee
Doesn't that sort of imply that God didn't have a hand in it?.....I sort of figure that if God wanted to communicate with us, he'd be smart enough to make sure WHAT he wanted to communicate with us got included.....

for example the only known copy of the Gospel of Thomas that we have today was discovered in 1945.....is there any reason it should have been included in the canon back in the third century?......

Discovered yes...written in 1945 no. Would have been written before the council of Nicea. None of the Gnostic gospels are included in our canon of today. Some were included in both the Marcion and Muratorian canons. As SC said, some Catholic Bibles even have some that were included.


Edit: On a side note we don't have/use anything from the apocrypha either. Jesus would have likely used at least in part, the Septuagint. Some of the apocrypha is referred to in the Bible. My guess is that most Jewish people of old would be familiar with it.
 
Last edited:

lmrasch

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 21, 2010
889
43
Oregon
You are reading into more than what is there. I agree that the HS can/does guide and the Bible is absolutely the plumb line. The problem with the Gnostics and "some" of the groups mentioned along with some others is the lack of use of the plumb line. Hence spirit guiding apart from the scriptures. Remember that is part of a Wednesday study...you only have the outline.

Ok gotcha...thanks for the clarification :)....I was a bit corn fused, lol!
 

LisaLisa

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Oct 4, 2009
3,473
34
Wow, awesome SG! I wish I could have been there to see that dove come out of the sky. Can you even imagine how thrilling that must have been?

Question: If the Pharisees weren't really interested in changing, why did they come to be baptised? Just a showy display or something like that?

Second question: What in the world was satan thinking while trying to tempt Jin the wilderness? I mean, did he even think there was a chance that Jesus would fall for his games or something?
 

Southern Gent

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 18, 2009
778
32
60
Tennessee
Wow, awesome SG! I wish I could have been there to see that dove come out of the sky. Can you even imagine how thrilling that must have been?

Question: If the Pharisees weren't really interested in changing, why did they come to be baptised? Just a showy display or something like that?

Second question: What in the world was satan thinking while trying to tempt Jin the wilderness? I mean, did he even think there was a chance that Jesus would fall for his games or something?

They came out basically to keep an eye on things. Spies actually that had the authority in the region to shut this escaped down if they deemed it needed. Most though to report back to the temple about what was going on.

We'll get to the wilderness in a bit......
 

KellyinAZ

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 2, 2010
176
0
Mesa, AZ
Jons,

I believe the more the merrier, so please join us. We are just finishing reading the 3rd and 4th chapters of Mathew. Souther Gent has taken great time and trouble to type them all out for us so if you want just go back a few pages and you will be all caught up. We post our thoughts and questions or whatever on Tuesdays and Fridays. So just back up a couple of pages and read the 3rd and 4th chapters and you are good to go for tomorrows discussions. Southern Gent has also taken the time to explain various things in each verse as well. I have learned quite a lot from reading what he has posted here, I can only speak for myself of course, but I think we all have learned from his work.
Kelly
In God We Trust
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread