I agree with most people that if this is true and tobacco companies come up with their own branding of e-cigarettes, chances are they're going to milk the cash cow. Heck, chances are e-cigarettes are going to become a lot more expensive, yet somewhat cheaper than tobacco ( considering the prices now, the liquid must be near dirt cheap to produce in large quantities) . If I am still using PVs at this point, I'll probably just start making my own juice.
Big Tobacco For E-Cig!?
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Granted, I am getting to where I don't trust any organization anymore, but I tend to trust the tobacco companies even less. Supposedly this information came from BT's own internal memos which are now warehoused somewhere in Minnesota. Personally I wouldn't touch an e-cig made by BT with a ten foot pole, but I do have to agree that if they paved the way it would be a lot easier for all of us to continue using e-cigs. I think I would have to stick with mom and pop or DIY and either china made parts or mods however.
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I don' know if BT producing an e-cigarette is such a good idea. First of all, one the government, BT get their act together, the government will start taxing the heck out of the e-cigarettes. The government professes to be taxing cigarettes for our own good and to fund smoking cessation plans, pay for the costs of health care, etc., etc, so why would they need to tax e-cigs? They will have to find some good reason to do it. They will find some flaw, and then regulate how the e-cig is produced. They will also reduce the amount of nicotine that an e-cigarette liquid can contain, causing users to vape more in order to get enough nicotine. The regulations will costs BT a lot of money to comply with and those costs will be passed on to the consumer. Before you know it, the e-cig will have nearly as many cancer causing additives as cigarettes have now. Impossible, you say? Not for the government. That will save all of the industries who feed on our cigarette addictions. BT for their part will find a way to make cigarettes that come in a pack similar to what they sell now. They won't be refillable and won't last too long so that you would have to buy it just as you would buy any pack or carton of cigarettes. I don't have a lot of confidence that once BT gets involved AND the government figures out how to make money from them that we won't get the shaft, in more ways than one.
I think most people would believe that most of the harm from cigarettes comes from the burning rather than the actual tobacco. BT is the most regulated corporation ever. Personally, I would trust them more than a nameless company in China. After all, BT has researched a safer cigarette for decades. The regulations and lawsuits prevent them from going forward. If BP gets it, the product will be tasteless and worthless like all of their other NRT's.
My prediction is--
Plusses:
They will come up with a more consistent product for the user.
They will be more motivated and maybe better able to produce flavors that replicate their cigarette products. (But if so, I wish they'd replicate the cigarettes of a generation or more ago instead of the comparative slag of the present.)
The product will stay legal and somewhat recognizable in its basic health advantage and far better than its previous attempts.
Minuses:
They will want to be the only players in the game. The present e-cigarette industry will succumb to legal/economic obstacles or go underground. What they offer (variety of products/flavors/strengths, innovation) will become history or contraband. Variety will be hard for Big Vapor to market because there will be little advertising. (See next point.)
They will play ball with federal and state governments at every turn, just as they lately have. They'll let themselves be taxed and regulated to the gills. (PM will insist on it. Their competitors will pretend to put up a fight.)
Consistency and ease of use of their product will raise the whole issue of the e-cigarette as a tobacco habituation gateway product, even though a more health-neutral one. This will re-open those wars with the same players and whatever science they invent to demonize the product. Look for spurious claims about second-hand vapor. (If you're really cynical, look for fire-safe e-cigarettes.
)
Plusses:
They will come up with a more consistent product for the user.
They will be more motivated and maybe better able to produce flavors that replicate their cigarette products. (But if so, I wish they'd replicate the cigarettes of a generation or more ago instead of the comparative slag of the present.)
The product will stay legal and somewhat recognizable in its basic health advantage and far better than its previous attempts.
Minuses:
They will want to be the only players in the game. The present e-cigarette industry will succumb to legal/economic obstacles or go underground. What they offer (variety of products/flavors/strengths, innovation) will become history or contraband. Variety will be hard for Big Vapor to market because there will be little advertising. (See next point.)
They will play ball with federal and state governments at every turn, just as they lately have. They'll let themselves be taxed and regulated to the gills. (PM will insist on it. Their competitors will pretend to put up a fight.)
Consistency and ease of use of their product will raise the whole issue of the e-cigarette as a tobacco habituation gateway product, even though a more health-neutral one. This will re-open those wars with the same players and whatever science they invent to demonize the product. Look for spurious claims about second-hand vapor. (If you're really cynical, look for fire-safe e-cigarettes.
)My concern about BT manufacturing e-cigs is the perception issue. It is already very difficult to convince anyone that e-cigs are a much safer alternative to tobacco. I can't imagine what it would be like if the world's biggest manufacturer of e-cigs is all the sudden Pilllip Morris. It's the perception of that link - it's going to be a stigma that will be very hard to dispel.
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Just playing devil’s advocate here. It looks nobody has thought about the opposite.
What is BT just do as other big business: “absorb” the competition to kill it? I think it happened with Photoshop, buying out another software and killing it a couple years later…
Perhaps, they are not interested in reducing their income or changing their plants… they can “create” an electronic cigarette, put it into the market; “study” it and conclude it’s more harmful that the trusted cigarettes, so they just remove it from the market again and voila; FDA and big brother have the perfect excuse to ban ALL kinds of e-cig and keep the “healthy” relationship (and big money) from the traditional “trusted” BT.
What is BT just do as other big business: “absorb” the competition to kill it? I think it happened with Photoshop, buying out another software and killing it a couple years later…
Perhaps, they are not interested in reducing their income or changing their plants… they can “create” an electronic cigarette, put it into the market; “study” it and conclude it’s more harmful that the trusted cigarettes, so they just remove it from the market again and voila; FDA and big brother have the perfect excuse to ban ALL kinds of e-cig and keep the “healthy” relationship (and big money) from the traditional “trusted” BT.
Most of the people that are interested have been smoking for 20+ years and are tired of the side effects of smoking tobacco.... to many to list!
Has anyone thought about the added chemicals that the tobacco industry would add to the e-liquid to get people hooked on theirs? Isn't that exactly what they done to the tobacco cigarette? And isn't that why we are all trying to get away from tobacco? If big tobacco gets into the e-cig business, we are all in trouble because of their inovative ideas and the money they will spread to the lawmakers to make it alright. No Thanks, I will keep my e-cig and pray Phillip Morris doesn't get their hooks into me once again!
This is interesting though, this was circulating around before....why the Ruyan deal fell through is speculation, but I could see PM going to the FDA with this....but I don't see PM being able to produce one that didn't mimic Ruyan more or less. Who would have more pull with the FDA. We all know there's been concessions. Just a thought.
Would be ironic if BT solved our little FDA problems. Don't tell me BT doesn't realize how many e-cigs are circulating. Mods galore.
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what really scares me about BT getting into the PV game is - what all are they gonna put in the juice?
Look what they've done with cigarettes - arsenic, ammonia, urine, heavy metals, and, I'm certain, other 'brand specific' chemicals designed to keep the smoker hooked on one certain brand.....
Do we REALLY want BT producing niquid?
Look what they've done with cigarettes - arsenic, ammonia, urine, heavy metals, and, I'm certain, other 'brand specific' chemicals designed to keep the smoker hooked on one certain brand.....
Do we REALLY want BT producing niquid?
The whole idea of "trust" in this entire issue is ludicrous!! I trust absolutely no one, completely, when it comes to this whole issue. All the players have bias and self-interest in the mix, including ourselves, and so, I believe it was Wolf who posted on here awhile back about needing to use critical thinking to decide who and what seems "most reasonable". This may very well be crazy but if you look at it in the here and now and ask who do you 'trust' more - the current status: ecigs, unregulated and most products coming from China, versus a potential future scenario of Big Tobacco monopolizing the entire industry (because, hopefully everyone knows they would) - I'll take China and uncertainty (and that includes a six year track record of no documented fatalities and no documented cases of serious illness or personal injury) over Big Tobacco and their proven track record (shameless) any day of the week!! What I would really like to see however is China, with established and reasonable standards and regulations and hopefully, later on more, if not all, manufacturing in the United States (even though that would mean inevitable cost increases)
My theroies:
BT and FDA already have agreements in place. BT is doing FDA required research to comply to their standards in private.
FDA agrees that only BT will have/meet acceptable standards, all others will be non-standard, therefore illegal.
If ban is realized before BT is ready for their ecig launch, ban will be lifted.
My predictions:
Initially, BT will deal with competition by under pricing, buyouts, and any claims/legalities they can to snuff out all competitors. BT will be only ones to be endorsed by FDA standards, no other company will be able to meet standards.
BT ecigs will be propriatary, disposable and not refillable.
Laws will be created to make juice illegal to have/create.
States & Gov will tax ecigs to high heaven, claming luxury/sin reasons.
BT will add chemicals to increase dependance, and possibly sickness.
I see this within 5 years.
Shall we start a betting pool?
BT and FDA already have agreements in place. BT is doing FDA required research to comply to their standards in private.
FDA agrees that only BT will have/meet acceptable standards, all others will be non-standard, therefore illegal.
If ban is realized before BT is ready for their ecig launch, ban will be lifted.
My predictions:
Initially, BT will deal with competition by under pricing, buyouts, and any claims/legalities they can to snuff out all competitors. BT will be only ones to be endorsed by FDA standards, no other company will be able to meet standards.
BT ecigs will be propriatary, disposable and not refillable.
Laws will be created to make juice illegal to have/create.
States & Gov will tax ecigs to high heaven, claming luxury/sin reasons.
BT will add chemicals to increase dependance, and possibly sickness.
I see this within 5 years.
Shall we start a betting pool?
I believe if the Ban from NY moves south PM will probably make a move... To stop it!? well no... but potentially to amend it for future ca$h cow opportunities. They have done some product development and testing and I believe they will at some point put their toes into the E-Cig market, but when they do so they are going to monopoly the product and search for something that only allows them to sell it and personal devises and small business will be SOL.
FDA honestly just needs to pull their head out of their butts and do something useful for a change... BTW anyone else notice that Lazer Pointers are now banned by the FDA in the US!? WTF is that?
FDA honestly just needs to pull their head out of their butts and do something useful for a change... BTW anyone else notice that Lazer Pointers are now banned by the FDA in the US!? WTF is that?
What, seriously? Now that is just plain ......ed! Where did you get that they banned laser pointers? I know (and have) laser pointers can be used/modded for ecigs, but that is outright stupid. Honestly, even as stupid as the FDA and government and anyone else trying to ban ecigs are, I can't believe they would go so far as to ban another product like laser pointers JUST because they CAN be made into an ecig, let's get real.
Edit: Just googled this, Austrailia has banned them, but for the 'weapon' value, not because of ecigs. I can see banning for the danger they can present by idiots pointing them where they shouldn't, not that I agree with it, but I can see it. (at least untill someone points one in my eyes)
Edit: Just googled this, Austrailia has banned them, but for the 'weapon' value, not because of ecigs. I can see banning for the danger they can present by idiots pointing them where they shouldn't, not that I agree with it, but I can see it. (at least untill someone points one in my eyes)
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BT will just find a way to get a patent on the e-cigs or the juice. They will do something dispicable and crooked thats for sure.
As for the farmers, they can always cut back production and include other high profit crops like Ginseng, I heard its a growing market in the US.
As for the farmers, they can always cut back production and include other high profit crops like Ginseng, I heard its a growing market in the US.
If the American tobacco companies try to shut out China, then China will retaliate by banning the importation of cigarettes made in the USA, and China is a hell of a big market for them. What I see is that USA BT will have to have e-cigs made in China, cheap labor.
They are most likely already buying liquid nicotine from them right now.
My money says that the talks with Ruyan were about product licensing, with BT here paving the way with friendly legislation as part of the deal.
They are most likely already buying liquid nicotine from them right now.
My money says that the talks with Ruyan were about product licensing, with BT here paving the way with friendly legislation as part of the deal.
I'm afraid that most posters here are probably correct - Big Tobacco will likely prevail. It wouldn't even surprise me if this current lawsuit is nothing more than a piece of the overall plan, i.e. mount a significant opposition to "drug" classification and get us all fighting our collective a***s off for "tobacco product" classification, then if that prevails, we'll be so busy patting ourselves on the backs we won't see the hammer coming - new tobacco product regulations that will inevitably put everyone but BT out of the e-cig business. Once it has established the 'monopoly' it's "business as usual". Crappy products, ineffective products, excessive taxes, vaping bans in public places, restaurants, parks etc etc. the smoking cessation industry continues to operate as usual; local, state and the Federal govt. get their continued huge revenue shares (sin tax) the FDA gets 'out from under' because if ever there would be a serious illness or injury related to e-cigs they will say "...hey we tried in Federal Court to get it classified as a drug product so we could ensure safety..blah..blah...blah.." and everyone is happy....except of course.....us. Sun Vaporer was correct several months ago by posting the opinion that there should be an alternative classification - but I don't know the feasibility of that at this point - I'm afraid that "Big Money" has spoken, the wheels are already in motion and the rest is just 'smoke' and mirrors.
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