Boycot Starbucks

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sailorman

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You are a slave. You like to think because you speak up for the right to do whatever you want whereever you want it makes you righteous and indignified. The truth is again , If I thought what you were doing jeoprodized my business or its customers in anyway I would ask yoou to stop or leave. I dont disagree with anyones right to personal property.

In a legal sense, I don't disagree with someone banning a behavior based on absolutely nothing but personal bias. I do think that if they do, it's plenty of justification for a boycott of that establishment.

I would love to accomodate everyone but in the end there are but a few poeple who believe their right to do what they want out of convenience trumps everyone elses request to stop such behavior. Ever seen the No shoes, No shirt, No service signs? Sure it doesnt hurt the 7-11 clerk and it may do nothing but offend a more refined person who may happen into the store but it has no ill or adverse consequence to another patron. It does present a liability if the person were hurt.

No shoes, shirt laws are laws. They're based on public health an liabiltiy issues. They're not something the proprietor does at his own discretion because he, or his patrons, might be offended. It does present a reasonable chance of adverse consequences. That's why it's a law and not up to the discretion of the business owner.

Furthermore, I seriously doubt that the vaping ban was a result of popular demand among Starbucks customers. It was likely a corporate decision resulting from the conflation of smoking and vaping, as is constantly reinforced by FDA and anti-tobacco nazi propagandists.
There is an entire chain of malls that has instituted a no-tobacco policy, including snus and dissolvalble tobacco products. Technically that would include Nicorette gum and patches. Do you seriously think that ban was the product of customer demand?

If someone were to drag a starbucks into a courtroom and ask why said starbucks exposed an employee to nicotine laden vapor regardless of concentrate level and that employee claimed harm from the act, what could you tell a judge to make the judge decide that it was a necessary exposure? Would the small payout to quiet the employee or the $100,000 dollar defense be worth the litigation for the right of an individual to aloow you to vape in their presence?-

A suit like that would be instantly thrown out of court. More likely, it would never see the light of day. To even pose such a scenario is proof of how uninformed some people are of how the civil court system operates. It's as firivilous as taking your neighbor to court for the toxic emissions of his lawnmower. It is an established fact that he levels of nicotine contained in an e-cigarette are well below any amount that could be considered harmful. The amount of arsenic allowed in your tap water is more harmful than the amount of nicotine contained in many, many, cubic meters of vapor. Would you take your water utility to court over arsenic exposure? Do yo only drink bottled water? Should you be forced to only drink bottled water? The fact is that Starbucks serves food and beverages to it's customers that contain higher levels of toxins than would be ingested due to inhaling e-cig vapor.

Slave? No I think not. Not a being pigheaded and failing to listen to reason is not being a slave its realizing that minorities "rights" should not come at the expense of everyone around them. You can claim the nicotine concentrate is as low as you want and it doesnt support your right to vape wherever you want even if there is no harm to another.

I don't see any majority of people demanding that we not vape. I see a minority of anti-smoking nazis propagating disinformation in an attempt to create an atmosphere where they do. I see people like you swallowing it hook, line and sinker. I see a bunch of non-sequiturs and arguments based on nothing factual. I see people like you not listening to reason and preferring to believe nonsense and myths and propaganda. The truth has a way of appearing pig headed because it doesn't change, regardless of the hysteria and scare tactics of the absolutists and propagandists.

Just as another reference, pounding my palms on a counter-top in a drum type session probably wont hurt anyone around me and would cause no ill effects to those who heard it, it would probably be annoying especially if they were in a quiet setting enjoying a beverage. Should I consider this a "right" as well because it wasnt prohibited by law ? Should I consider myself a passifist slave because I can expect that someone will ask me to stop and out of common courtesy I should abide? Think guys.Defiance isnt always a good steward of the cause.

Drumming your hand on a table can be interpreted as annoying by a reasonable person. The fact that nearly everyone agrees is evidence of that. The fact you used it as an example is evidence of that. Ever heard of the "reasonable man" doctrine? That's how cases like that are judged. You have no right to do something that would annoy a reasonable person. OTOH, if I objected to the perfumed woman next to me and demanded she be expelled, I would not be reasonable and I shouldn't expect to be accommodated. So, it is fairly easy to determine what is reasonableness and that is the criteria used. The fact that I get very, very few objections when I vape in public is prima-facie evidence that a reasonable person does not find my vaping annoying or offensive.

Law,Right,Common courtesy and respect are all different. In this posters opinion, equally important.
I agree. When someone has the common courtesy to respect my right to do what I want as long as it poses no risk to them, or annoys a reasonable person, then I'll respect them and show them the same courtesy. But if they try to use the law to force me to submit to their unreasonable demands in order to spare their delicate sensibilities, they'll get no respect from me.
 
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Cyatis

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The business has the right to ask you to leave.

You have the right to not shop there.

You have the right to let other people know why you won't shop there.

Those people have the right to accept or ignore your request.

I've never been asked to leave a place, because I vaped.

I have been asked to quit smoking.

When asked to quit smoking, I smile and say I gave up that habit over a year ago.

Most people that have watched me vape, ask me what is that.

I tell them, and so far, that has been that.

I started vaping in public, so others that smoke might ask me what I'm doing.
 

sailorman

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Man whos saying anything about hide ? lol man your just a hard head , keep with your selfish mentality and carry on with your everywhere vaping and being an outcast , fromyour way of thinking i asume your not a young person but the problem is that at these stage of life i think you havent learn you cant have or do whatever you want in life and some people will always make sure you dont......

Im a happy vaper and smoker on special occacions , i dont hide but i also respect other people space and proud of it !


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I have vaped virtually everywhere. You know how many times I've been asked not to? Once. You know by who? By some old lady who thought I was smoking. It took exactly 1 minute to enlighten her and she shut up. She wasn't offended. She wasn't allergic. She simply thought I was smoking.

I am not the outcast. You are the one who considers himself an outcast that needs to grovel for approval from any random bystander. I, OTOH, ask permission where appropriate and confidently vape where I don't feel it's necessary to gain advance approval. So far, I've met no meaningful opposition.

The problem in your "stage of life" is that you think everyone is your boss. You think you have to beg for social approval. You think everything is a privilege that is granted to you by some authority figure, and everyone is an authority to you.

I respect other peoples' space. I don't blow my vapor into their face. An area of about 3' around them is "their space". They don't own all space outside my own 3'. That is public space and I have every bit as much right to use it as anyone else. I'm not endangering it or polluting it, so they have no right to complain.

If you think of everything as a privilege granted to you by others, you will find that they can revoke those privileges with nary a whimper from you. This society is not a sea of restrictions with islands of privileges. It is a sea of rights with islands of restrictions. Unless you learn that, you will find those islands of restrictions hemming you in and swallowing you up.
 
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sailorman

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Man now you talking about risk , i can take a .... on the floor clean it and everything and theres no risk involved but do you do it ? Doubt it


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You're just the master of nonsensical, mindless analogies, aren't you.
Got anything constructive to contribute?
 

sailorman

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The business has the right to ask you to leave.

You have the right to not shop there.

You have the right to let other people know why you won't shop there.

Those people have the right to accept or ignore your request.

I've never been asked to leave a place, because I vaped.

I have been asked to quit smoking.

When asked to quit smoking, I smile and say I gave up that habit over a year ago.

Most people that have watched me vape, ask me what is that.

I tell them, and so far, that has been that.

I started vaping in public, so others that smoke might ask me what I'm doing
.

Exactly. I encourage people, smokers and especially non-smokers to ask me what I'm doing.
Every non-smoker I talk to is one less supporter of a vaping ban.
 

Ladypixel

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I still maintain that it really depends on WHICH Starbucks you go into, as I've vaped inside a Starbucks before and not gotten any flack from it, and in fact had curious employees who wanted to quit smoking asking me about it.

Remember: while corporate policies can be created, it's up to the individual stores as to whether or not it's enforced. You can certainly boycott a chain because of the corporate mindset if you'd like to. That's completely your option, your right, and your privilege. However, I personally feel no need to boycott something which I do enjoy (Starbucks) purely because the corporation, which does not control every single action of its employees, has a stick up its corporate-entity-posterior.

I do agree that people need to stop viewing vaping as smoking. But that's going to be a process, as people assumes that what looks like a duck is a duck. It takes time to educate people. Enthusiastic, friendly education tends to turn more people to a friendly outlook on vaping than, say, arguing the point forcefully. If you are argumentative in a place which prohibits vaping, solely because it prohibits vaping, you have reinforced the negative opinion of vaping and of vapers in general, thus causing the policy to have merit. If you are polite and respectful, and try to educate, it might change simply because you were being nice and they got curious enough to do a little research on their own.

My objection to the OP's actions were based entirely on this line of thought, and on the fact that a district manager that I personally know doesn't have this anti-ecig information in her handbook, which leads me to believe it may not be corporate-wide but perhaps a string of stores. Plus, I personally believe that reactionary behavior will not make people trust vaping and vapers any more than they trust other reactionary people.

If you want to lead the horse to water, while the spurs might be effective, blocks of sugar'll work a lot better and the horse won't buck.
 

YetiHunter

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I'm very confused. Everyone here understands that it's pretty rude to vape indoors without consent, right?
I mean, billows of propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin that smell like a candy factory are sort of...annoying
(at the very least) for the surrounding persons. All considerations of common sense aside, why are grown ups
wasting their time talking about it? Let it go.
 

Cyatis

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I agree with your sentiment Ladypixel, but I can understand the OP's dislike for a store after being asked to leave.

I probably wouldn't have liked it much.

That being said, I'd probably have just packed and went for the day.

I'm very confused. Everyone here understands that it's pretty rude to vape indoors without consent, right?

I've never been asked to leave a store because I vaped indoors, ever. I do have enough common sense, not to blow 8 foot clouds of vapor in a small room.

I'm talking about it because I'm a bit bored and am allowed to. (Considering the time of day here ... at least)

I think the discussion harms nobody.
 

Ladypixel

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I'm very confused. Everyone here understands that it's pretty rude to vape indoors without consent, right?
I mean, billows of propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin that smell like a candy factory are sort of...annoying
(at the very least) for the surrounding persons. All considerations of common sense aside, why are grown ups
wasting their time talking about it? Let it go.

I could spend a few moments pointing out that this evening, at a restaurant, I let some friends try some of my zero-nicotine juices happily while we all were drinking, and I occasionally hit my own nicotine PV, and nobody batted an eye. In fact, the waiter noticed, went 'what is that?', and we all joyously chorused "cheesecake!", to which he groaned and went "forget that stuff, order more drinks, they taste good too.".

(Which we did.)

I did not ask for consent, and I don't personally find it rude to vape indoors. I don't do it all the time, but I don't think twice about doing it when I do want to, because it keeps me from smoking.

I do find it rude to be argumentative if the staff of the store politely asks you not to do it and you object in a negative fashion, however. The store has every right to determine what's allowed or disallowed on its premises. You can opt to not go there or to go there based on your personal views of their rules.

Calling for a boycott of an entire chain for being asked to temporarily not vape at one of its stores...? Wow, that's kinda throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
 

sailorman

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I'm very confused. Everyone here understands that it's pretty rude to vape indoors without consent, right?
I mean, billows of propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin that smell like a candy factory are sort of...annoying
(at the very least) for the surrounding persons. All considerations of common sense aside, why are grown ups
wasting their time talking about it? Let it go.

"Billows of propylene glycol and vegetable glycerine"??

No, that's now what is in exhaled vapor. The PG and VG are absorbed and their by-products are converted to water vapor.
I don't know your vaping habits, but "billows" is an exaggeration, mostly.
As I sit here in a normally ventilated room, vaping as normal and not trying to impress anyone with giant clouds of vapor, my "billows" are completely dissipated before they get 3 or 4 feet from me. In a public space, the ventilation is usually much better than in my living room.
If someone is annoyed at what goes on within what is, essentially, my personal space, that is their issue.
As for the smell, it is less intrusive than someones after shave or perfume or body odor, and it too is gone within a few feet. It is also nearly completely masked by the ambient odors in any public area.

We grown ups are talking about it because it's an important issue. Thousands of grown up anti-tobacco zealots in hundreds of governmental and no-governmental organizations, funded with tens of millions of dollars are waging a crusade to eliminate the use of all tobacco products. They've been doing this for almost 30 years in an organized and well orchestrated strategy that has been thoroughly documented. After their successes with cigarettes, they have turned their focus from anti-smoking to anti-tobacco. They are pushing, and getting, support for all the same restrictions and taxation schemes that they got against cigarettes and smokers. They seek to stigmatize and denormalize (in their own words) vapers the same as they did with smokers.

Tobacco users, as we are, have no means to counter this crusade, except to educate people one-by-one, and try to make vaping a common and unremarkable thing for people to see. To a large degree, the anti-tobacco zealots were successful in their anti-smoking crusade because they had the public on their side. The public knew first hand the nature of cigarettes. Today, most of the public are either unfamiliar or uninformed regarding vaping. The ANTZ (anti nicotine and tobacco zealots) are engaged in disinformation aimed at the public so that they can garner the same support for anti-vaping measures that they had with anti-smoking measures. A google search of "safety of electronic cigarettes" will yield voluminous propaganda put out by the PR arms of BP, BT and an alphabet soup of ANTZ organizations. Yet, CASAA gets a first mention on page 9.

Everything we, as vapers, do that resembles the behavior of a smoker, reinforces the ANTZ propaganda and makes it easier for them to conflate smoking with vaping, smoke with vapor and nicotine with the carcinogens in tobacco smoke. That is what they must do to get the support of the public for vaping bans and, so far, they have had some success.

If you don't mind your PV and juice being taxed and regulated just the same as cigarettes, and you don't mind being discriminated against in employment and insurance like a smoker, and you don't mind being relegated to smoking areas and treated like a pariah, then this issue may seem to you like a waste of time.
 

sailorman

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....

Calling for a boycott of an entire chain for being asked to temporarily not vape at one of its stores...? Wow, that's kinda throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Excellent post. I was with you right to this point. There is a much more compelling reason to boycott Charbucks. I suggest they should be boycotted for abusing perfectly good coffee beans. It's inhumane and borders on the obscene. They should be taken to the World Court and prosecuted for Coffee-bean-ocide.
 

Cyatis

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I might have to change my signature after the joke I left Ladypixel on another thread, wonder when she will read it.

I have a bottle of 555 I have never dared to vape in public. It leaves the most strange earthy smell in the room after vaping it, and its really, really, strong.

There's this little devil on my shoulder just telling me, go for it man, you know you want to.

He's right, but I don't even dare.
 

Striker911

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I can honestly say that I have never gave starbucks a penny of my money. In fact the only coffee I ever bought was for my own coffee maker. One exception. Mcdonalds had a promotional coupon in my mail box for a buy one get one ice coffee. Thats the only coffee ive ever bought. I took one drink and tossed it in the trash. I dont get why a person would spend so much for a drink that makes me want to toss chunks. To each his own. I down Red Bull like I have a death wish though.
 

sailorman

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I might have to change my signature after the joke I left Ladypixel on another thread, wonder when she will read it.

I have a bottle of 555 I have never dared to vape in public. It leaves the most strange earthy smell in the room after vaping it, and its really, really, strong.

There's this little devil on my shoulder just telling me, go for it man, you know you want to.

He's right, but I don't even dare.

Knowing a bit about commercial ventilation standards, I wouldn't necessarily recommend it, but I think you'd be surprised at how little the odor lingers in a public environment as compared to your house. Of course, elevators and little hole-in-the-wall taverns are excluded from that generalization. But HITW taverns have their own odor issues, so 555 might be an improvement.
 

Ladypixel

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Excellent post. I was with you right to this point. There is a much more compelling reason to boycott Charbucks. I suggest they should be boycotted for abusing perfectly good coffee beans. It's inhumane and borders on the obscene. They should be taken to the World Court and prosecuted for Coffee-bean-ocide.

Admittedly, I do miss the friend I had locally who was a coffee roaster. Nothing is better than bringing home a pound or two of french roast that came out of the roaster all of 20 minutes before, and grinding it up when it's still warm to get the maximum use out of those oils. Alas... he and his business moved out of state. So I'm relegated to Starbucks and chains like it for my coffee fix (well, when I don't feel inclined to make my own coffee, that is).
 
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