Brace yourselves new Formaldehype junk study to be released Jan 21

[shreduhsoreus]

Well, I've spent my morning and afternoon trying to explain to ignorant people how electronic cigarettes work and why the testing done on one tank at only minimum and maximum voltage is flawed.

Mostly to no avail -_-




My thoughts on the study are that what actually produced the formaldehyde wasn't the liquid itself, but was the result of vaporizing the liquid too fast, causing the coil to dry and burn the wicking material.

That would explain why vaping your liquid TOO hot tastes so damn nasty.

 

[sofarsogood]

Dr F our greek researcher has answered the study already on his blog.

A useful study would examine the correlation between emergence of products of combustion and foul taste. For millions of years our palete and olfactory evolved to give us information about something we might be tempted to ingest and trigger a gag reflex if it's a no no. We all know that protective mechanism is in play when an atomizer burns liquid. So, do we detect burned liquid soon enough so that our natural protective mechanisms are highly effective? My hunch is the answer is yes but experiments to determine that are doable. What does the vapor with concerning levels of combustables taste like? Science yes, rocket science, no.

 

[Racehorse]

What I'm about to say doesn't mean that this formaldehyde study isn't crap. There are a number of reasons it is not real good science, one being that no vaper really vapes the way described.

However:

The study found little to no formaldehyde in low power vaping and substantially more in high power vaping. Not sure why that is so difficult for some to believe or accept...

I had a feeling that you would say something like this given your posting history.

I had a feeling he would say something like that based on his professional knowledge (which you don't know anything about what field he is in) and there was a firefighter expert elsewhere on the forum who had quite a few credentials and seemed to understand high heat vaping much better than anyone I have seen post on the forum.

Stevegmu is entitled to his theory and that is that low power vaping *might* be safer. And he wouldn't be the first person to surmise that.

Smoking does a tremendous amount of damage to the esophagus, before it reaches the lungs......the cellular changes in delicate esophageal tissue is mainly done by............heat. Subjecting tissues like that to heat is in no way shape or form a natural or healthy state of affairs for delicate esophageal tissue......esp. repeatedly.

So I would like to see a study on that. IN the meantime, like Stevegmu, I will not vape at high temps. In other words, there are things other than "chemicals" or "tar" that effect the health of tissues, and temp. would be one of them.

 

[Moonbogg]

It didn't go well with the wife. She is a typical person who hears something put out by the media and science folks, so she trusts them. She said that Web MD has no reason to lie. There is nothing I can say or do. I explained the reason for the dry hit and that they used too much power but that sounds like pleading and excuse making on my part. This study did some serious damage, enough to where its hitting home for many of us. Incredible.
What can we say in defense that doesn't sound like excuse making? How can our biased comments and opinions have a chance against the media, a science based study, and sites like Web MD? These things just got banned in Amsterdam and I expect that trend to spread if this keeps up. People getting away with murder is what this is.

 

[bigdancehawk]

Reminds me a little bit of lawyers. To hell with the truth, just WIN at any cost, collect fee.

Is gratuitous lawyer bashing relevant to the topic? Several CASAA board members, including the president, are lawyers working without pay to protect and defend your right to vape.

 

[caramel]

Well, I've spent my morning and afternoon trying to explain to ignorant people...

I'm not trying anymore. When questioned I reply that I'm trying to kill myself before 65 so I wouldn't be a financial burden for "the system". They seem to be happy with that.

 

[aznnp77]

A friend of mine who vapes, but doesn't know the details about it, other than how to use a tank and a battery commented to me about it. He didn't seem to care really. It should be blatantly obvious that the alternative (cigarettes) are still worse for you overall.

The sad thing is, my friend's cousin uses his innokin VV3 (the same one used in the study) at very high voltages because he likes it like that. One time I took a look at his meter, and it said 4.8 volts! I'm guessing it has to do with a really run down coil that needs extra voltage to vaporize the juice, but I'm slightly concerned for him now.

 

[rolygate]

The great thing about a smear is that no matter how false it is subsequently shown to be, it never goes away. The pharmaceutical industry are masters of black propaganda, and this is one of their primary methods.

You can see from the source of the funding for this study - routed through a third party to obscure the actual source - that the agenda is to discredit ecigs by fraudulent research. There are endless examples of this where the funding source was not obscured, and the trail always leads back to pharma. Pfizer for example have spent a fortune on junk science to try and alter public perception of ecigs, and to affect regulatory policy.

In this case, deliberately hiding the funding source tells you all you need to know about the validity of the research and the agenda it was fabricated to align with. Pharma are desperate to protect smoking as the disease it causes generates a significant percentage of their income - probably about $150 billion of their $1 trillion global revenues this year. A drug supplier has only one goal after all: move product, at any cost. The more sick people, the better; the sicker they are, the better. Pharma can't afford to see this giant revenue channel shrink.

Smoking is better than war, for pharma, and they will do anything it takes to protect it. THR is the only real threat to smoking in the West, now, so it must be stopped. Luckily the EU is all about protecting giant corporates and government tax revenue, so they have it under control there: Swedish Snus is banned, and although the ecig ban failed, a gradual strangulation will be employed to solve the problem. In the USA some help is needed, so if the public can be persuaded that ecigs are evil, then cigarette sales can be protected. Expect a lot more of the same.

 

[rolygate]

.....my friend's cousin uses his innokin VV3 (the same one used in the study) at very high voltages because he likes it like that. One time I took a look at his meter, and it said 4.8 volts! I'm guessing it has to do with a really run down coil that needs extra voltage to vaporize the juice, but I'm slightly concerned for him now.

No, 4.8 volts isn't high voltage. In any case the most important factor is the atomiser resistance, which governs the power draw in Watts when used in a low voltage system like this. For example if your friend's atty measured 6 ohms then he'd be using so little power even at 6 volts that vapour would be minimal anyway. If it measured 0.1 ohm then you'd see some power draw, though []. Power = temperature at the atty so it's the main deliverable, and controlled principally by coil resistance assuming the circuit can provide the amps.

 

[BadThad]

Very good points! And in general, I wonder what happened to real scientific research? Seems to have been replaced with "garage experiments".

The whole experiment has too many unknowns to be considered actual scientific research. Perhaps most conspicuously, the relevant scientific question is "at what TEMPERATURE do these compounds form", which is only nominally associated with the power.

A useful scientific experiment would be to heat several liquids, using a coil, where the surface temperature of the coil could be accurately measured. Do this for pure PG, VG, 50/50, and water (or some acceptable control medium where the expected formaldehyde emissions would be 0 - in other words, a REAL control, that would help ferret out contamination, equipment errors, etc).

Once these results are in, apply accurate temperature-measurement techniques to the liquid in an e-cigarette, so that you could correlate what gets released to the operating conditions of the device.

An experiment like this would be scientifically useful (but perhaps not, as I suspect the first part has already been done). It would provide some understanding of where the emissions are coming from, and under what conditions. It would point the way towards PG or VG being more susceptible to this phenomenon, and open the door to designing temperature-regulated mods that would avoid the issue.

That would be science. This is more like a C+ version of Science Fair.

Another point I didn't make....like I said, I could write forever about how unscientific this was....

When you vaporize eliquid, you do just that, heat to around the boiling point to produce vapor. YOU DO NOT BURN IT!

If you heat ANY organic liquid past the boiling point and reach combustion, formaldehyde is a natural chemical produced.

 

[aznnp77]

No, 4.8 volts isn't high voltage. In any case the most important factor is the atomiser resistance, which governs the power draw in Watts when used in a low voltage system like this. For example if your friend's atty measured 6 ohms then he'd be using so little power even at 6 volts that vapour would be minimal anyway. If it measured 0.1 ohm then you'd see some power draw, though []. Power = temperature at the atty so it's the main deliverable, and controlled principally by coil resistance assuming the circuit can provide the amps.

I understand that 4.8 volts isn't a lot when you're dealing with advanced devices, or if your OHM level was high, but let's get serious here. No company would ever make a coil at 6 OHMs. The standard for single coils has been 2.2, which dual coils dropping it to 1.6-1.8 or so. I don't remember exactly what it was, but was your standard tank, probably with a 1.8 coil in it.

His vape tasted like straight char when I tried it out. I mentioned it earlier, but he told me he hadn't changed his coil in 4 months. At that point the coil is probably so black that it took 4.8 volts to get any kind of vapor out of it.

 

[WhiteHighlights]

It didn't go well with the wife. She is a typical person who hears something put out by the media and science folks, so she trusts them. She said that Web MD has no reason to lie. There is nothing I can say or do. I explained the reason for the dry hit and that they used too much power but that sounds like pleading and excuse making on my part. This study did some serious damage, enough to where its hitting home for many of us. Incredible.
What can we say in defense that doesn't sound like excuse making? How can our biased comments and opinions have a chance against the media, a science based study, and sites like Web MD? These things just got banned in Amsterdam and I expect that trend to spread if this keeps up. People getting away with murder is what this is.

Did you try printing out Dr F's response along with his credentials? I got some points for having that info too. That made it Dr vs Dr and not personal. Then there's the follow up with how science is always changing it's mind.. butter vs margarine etc.

 

[Lessifer]

What I'm about to say doesn't mean that this formaldehyde study isn't crap. There are a number of reasons it is not real good science, one being that no vaper really vapes the way described.

However:





I had a feeling he would say something like that based on his professional knowledge (which you don't know anything about what field he is in) and there was a firefighter expert elsewhere on the forum who had quite a few credentials and seemed to understand high heat vaping much better than anyone I have seen post on the forum.

Stevegmu is entitled to his theory and that is that low power vaping *might* be safer. And he wouldn't be the first person to surmise that.

Smoking does a tremendous amount of damage to the esophagus, before it reaches the lungs......the cellular changes in delicate esophageal tissue is mainly done by............heat. Subjecting tissues like that to heat is in no way shape or form a natural or healthy state of affairs for delicate esophageal tissue......esp. repeatedly.

So I would like to see a study on that. IN the meantime, like Stevegmu, I will not vape at high temps. In other words, there are things other than "chemicals" or "tar" that effect the health of tissues, and temp. would be one of them.

You may be right, but the fact is that high voltage does not necessarily equate to high heat, neither does high wattage. If you want to make a case against high temp vaping, by all means, go for it. Voltage and/or wattage alone do not make for an accurate measurement of temperature though. the 20w in my dripper right now is colder than my first CE4 on a standard 3.7v battery.

 

[Bill Godshall]

Everyone should read Fergus Mason: Formaldehye strikes again at Formaldehyde Strikes Again | Fergus OnlineFergus Online

This investigative journalist revealed that the authors of NEJM letter received “philanthropy to support research” from Michael Dowd and Patrick Coughlin, who appear to be attorneys Michael Dowd and Patrick Coughlin from Robbins Geller Rudman & Dowd, a class action lawfirm involved in past lawsuits against cigarette companies. Michael Dowd is one of the named partners in the firm (i.e. he's very wealthy), which has offices in many different cities.
http://fergusmason.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/nejmc1413069_disclosures.pdf
Robbins Geller Rudman & Dowd LLP: Securities Law Firm
Environment and Public Health: Robbins Geller Rudman & Dowd LLP

Robbins Geller attorneys have led the fight against Big Tobacco since 1991. As an example, Robbins Geller attorneys filed the case that helped get rid of Joe Camel, representing various public and private plaintiffs, including the State of Arkansas, the general public in California, the cities of San Francisco, Los Angeles and Birmingham, 14 counties in California, and the working men and women of this country in the Union Pension and Welfare Fund cases that have been filed in 40 states. In 1992, Robbins Geller attorneys filed the first case in the country that alleged a conspiracy by the Big Tobacco companies.

Also, their lawfirm was given an award by the CA American Cancer Society in 2012 for donating more than $41,000 to the ACS.

 

[aznnp77]

There's no point in continuing to complain over the inaccuracy of the article. It's already out, and main stream public has already formed it's opinions.

E-cig representatives have already sent their rebuttals in. Hopefully they clear the air eventually, but the article has already spread pretty far and pretty quickly.

 

[yossarian2004]

This really reminds me of the famous study that was shown to link brain cell death to {Other Stuff} use:

"False Monkey Study

Dr. Robert G. Heath was a researcher at Tulane University in New Orleans when he reported the findings of an experiment that apparently proved a connection between {Other Stuff} use and brain damage. Dr. Heath had conducted the study on rhesus monkeys by exposing them to an equivalent of 30{Other Stuff} per day. After 90 days, the monkeys began to waste and die. When they were later autopsied, Dr. Heath reported significant brain damage in the monkeys that had been exposed to {Other Stuff}.

Despite strong support from the federal government, the study was heavily criticized for inaccurate procedures upon its release. Critics suggested that suffocation may have been the actual cause of brain damage instead of{Other Stuff} itself.

The findings were challenged and ultimately dismissed by a pair of larger, better-controlled studies – one by Dr. William Slikker of the National Center for Toxicological Research and the other by Charles Rebert and Gordon Pryor of SRI International – that attempted to replicate Dr. Heath’s results without success. The studies showed no change in the brain structure of monkeys that were given daily doses of {Other Stuff} for up to one year."

This study and the findings received wide support from the government and health officials, despite its flawed method. If you look at it this way, after years and years of pot prohibition and false studies, we are just beginning to study the effects in earnest. In fact, the monkey study by Robert Heath wasn't debunked until 17 years later by William Slikker and Charles Rebert.

Just food for thought...

 

[EBates]

More and more I am becoming convinced that 'we the people' are more and more becoming lab rats in mind control experiments conducted by our "government" and peddled by our "media".
It ain't paranoia if they are really after you.

 

[johnny madman]

I hate to put my in to this topic but I think that you are all wrong in your approach. For some reason some of you had the mistaken hope that justice will win in the end and you have been taken for a ride again. Instead of sitting there and fighting the mans propaganda machine we should all do other things instead.

1. Stop vaping as soon as you can, start dropping your nic levels so you can stop. If you can't do this then do one of the other things listed.

2. Start to hoard juice at these prices ASAP. Once the taxs hit or bans or whatever else they have cooking it's going to hurt. So get ready!

3. Don't buy a drop of liquid after this game starts with taxes! Not one once, let the message go out to the idiots that this is not going to be the profit machine they envision.

4. Seems to me sitting here and talking with other vapors is not doing the job. What is the point of telling another vapor how bad this is, and having that vapor agree? We are spinning in round and round as they herd us like sheep.

5. This is a concentrated attack, How many mods can explode all at once? How many batteries can get hot all at once? How many people can get pains all over their bodies all in the same day this fake study hits the airwaves? If you are blind to this then that is your problem! Just go and check out all the people with hot and exploding bats in one day it is sick.

6.. If you have other ideas lets hear them. I'm serious here folks, this is coming it is coming hard and I am not going to take this lying down like some cow. I plan to do everything in my power not to let them get over on me like they did with cigs. This is not going to go down like that.

 

[shreduhsoreus]

You may be right, but the fact is that high voltage does not necessarily equate to high heat, neither does high wattage. If you want to make a case against high temp vaping, by all means, go for it. Voltage and/or wattage alone do not make for an accurate measurement of temperature though. the 20w in my dripper right now is colder than my first CE4 on a standard 3.7v battery.

I tried explaining that very thing several times, well written, organized and thought out.

It didn't even get fully read and I got accused of "wanting to feel smart". Some people even lumped me in with .... and ...... addicts, accusing me of just making excuses for my addiction. It's a sad world we live in where intellectual conversation is disregarded and intelligence is shunned. This is almost as bad as arguing with the idiots who think that measles are good for you -_-

 

[JollyRogers]

The Five on Fox is covering this right now, debunking the heck out of it and very good coverage.


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