Chinese clones Rant / Discussion

[SkvLTD]

Also, I've seen many successful, mass production companies that focus on premium products and they're staying alive by driving down their own costs and thus prices. I really don't see vaping to be THAT big just yet where we'd have local companies with formidable investment into equipment spring up and hope to stay in business. It's just not in the nature of the product to demand utmost production quality to still function.

By the way, why don't we have more billet aluminum atties instead of god-awfully heavy SS?

 

[Jman8]

In other words, you know good and well that there is a major difference, but you enjoy trolling.

I know good and well the moral argument at heart of this issue, and am in discussion with those arguing for immorality.

And I stand by idea that counterfeiting (US) money by China is no different than counterfeiting (US) product by China. Counterfeiting is counterfeiting.

I am curious if it were Al Qaeda who sold clones/counterfeits and was able to come in at even lower prices than China, would all you all who favor the clone position go with that vendor? If not, why not? Let's say China sells that cloned mod you want for $25, but AQ will sell it for $15. For sake of saving some back and forth, you can assume in this hypothetical that quality is equal to best of whatever China is able to produce.

 

[retired1]

This isn't about religion, evolution, what's taught in schools, or any of those other hot button topics (other than what this thread started as).

Keep it on topic, be nice, and we'll leave it open. 'Nuff said.

 

[Rocketpunk]

I know good and well the moral argument at heart of this issue, and am in discussion with those arguing for immorality.

And I stand by idea that counterfeiting (US) money by China is no different than counterfeiting (US) product by China. Counterfeiting is counterfeiting.

I am curious if it were Al Qaeda who sold clones/counterfeits and was able to come in at even lower prices than China, would all you all who favor the clone position go with that vendor? If not, why not? Let's say China sells that cloned mod you want for $25, but AQ will sell it for $15. For sake of saving some back and forth, you can assume in this hypothetical that quality is equal to best of whatever China is able to produce.

 

[Jman8]

My exact response to those who argue that cloning isn't really theft or isn't really immoral.

 

[TheJakeBailey]

So we've firmly and undeniably established that there are a few people who feel that the clones are "wrong," no matter what. Some more that think the are OK, but mmmmmm not so much with the emblems and such. And a bunch of others who don't care one way or the other and are going to buy what they buy because they want to buy it. Did I leave anybody out?

So after 29 pages, anybody have a different opinion on this topic then when it started? Mull it over for a bit. I gotta check out something on fasttech.

 

[roadie]

So we've firmly and undeniably established that there are a few people who feel that the clones are "wrong," no matter what. Some more that think the are OK, but mmmmmm not so much with the emblems and such. And a bunch of others who don't care one way or the other and are going to buy what they buy because they want to buy it. Did I leave anybody out?
So after 29 pages, anybody have a different opinion on this topic then when it started? Mull it over for a bit. I gotta check out something on fasttech.

lol............imagine that, a diverse group with different opinions.

Let me know what you find............

 

[Brusky]

So we've firmly and undeniably established that there are a few people who feel that the clones are "wrong," no matter what. Some more that think the are OK, but mmmmmm not so much with the emblems and such. And a bunch of others who don't care one way or the other and are going to buy what they buy because they want to buy it. Did I leave anybody out?

So after 29 pages, anybody have a different opinion on this topic then when it started? Mull it over for a bit. I gotta check out something on fasttech.

I think its common sense that counterfeits are immoral. There is no sense in trying to defend the stance on counterfeited products. Just reading about defending counterfeits is foolish. (just because the product deems itself a clone does not create immunity from it being a counterfeit).

There are moral and immoral ways of knocking off a product. The moral way can create a healthy competition, many big named brands and corporations actually came up from creating legitimatized knockoffs, and some are now leading in that market because they ended up with a better product than their original competitor.

We should all know that counterfeiting feeds on "branding". Meaning you will usually see counterfeits of only luxury items. Luxury brand companies build brands based on rarity, exclusivity, and quality. If you think a Nemesis is overpriced, its not for you obviously. And judging by how fast Caravela's, GP Paps, and other high end mods sell out, I would say they are priced justifiably.

But to buy a counterfeit, and rant about the original, and even the people who buys and supports the original? Wow.. These are the type of people who I imagine buys a fake Breitlings and taunts people who buy the real ones on how they overpaid..

 

[Rocketpunk]

I couldn't care less, either way. People are allowed to believe or feel passionately about whatever they choose. I'd be remiss if I didn't accept Jman8's clone beliefs.

EDIT: Where did this go from clone to counterfeit? EHPro and HCigar don't advertise as the real deal. Where is this going again, exactly?

 

[Brusky]

No one is arguing about being allowed to buy counterfeits.. People needs to stop arguing on that issue, as that is a non-issue.

I believe the issue is just the morality of counterfeits. Which (to me anyways) is obvious.

 

[Nikkita6]

I know good and well the moral argument at heart of this issue, and am in discussion with those arguing for immorality.

And I stand by idea that counterfeiting (US) money by China is no different than counterfeiting (US) product by China. Counterfeiting is counterfeiting.

I am curious if it were Al Qaeda who sold clones/counterfeits and was able to come in at even lower prices than China, would all you all who favor the clone position go with that vendor? If not, why not? Let's say China sells that cloned mod you want for $25, but AQ will sell it for $15. For sake of saving some back and forth, you can assume in this hypothetical that quality is equal to best of whatever China is able to produce.

.....

 

[crxess]

I know good and well the moral argument at heart of this issue, and am in discussion with those arguing for immorality.

And I stand by idea that counterfeiting (US) money by China is no different than counterfeiting (US) product by China. Counterfeiting is counterfeiting.

I am curious if it were Al Qaeda who sold clones/counterfeits and was able to come in at even lower prices than China, would all you all who favor the clone position go with that vendor? If not, why not? Let's say China sells that cloned mod you want for $25, but AQ will sell it for $15. For sake of saving some back and forth, you can assume in this hypothetical that quality is equal to best of whatever China is able to produce.

Now maybe the Op will understand my earlier post.
Think then type.

Sounds like someone has run out of logic and must now make rants to continue their argument.
Lets see.......Purchase from a foreign manufacturer or a known Terrorist network to save $10.

Your thought process is flawed

 

[Jman8]

Now maybe the Op will understand my earlier post.
Think then type.

Sounds like someone has run out of logic and must now make rants to continue their argument.
Lets see.......Purchase from a foreign manufacturer or a known Terrorist network to save $10.

Your thought process is flawed

Which one is the known terrorist and which is the foreign manufacturer?

What would you (or anyone that thinks cloning is kewl) care what the vendor did with the money, as long as you got a good deal and the mod you wanted? I mean, let's be honest, isn't your purchase the most important aspect of the deal?

Just like we might pretend that the counterfeiting vendor is putting the money to good use, we could pretend that AQ would do the same. You can sleep better at night with such pretending.

 

[crxess]

Which one is the known terrorist and which is the foreign manufacturer?

What would you (or anyone that thinks cloning is kewl) care what the vendor did with the money, as long as you got a good deal and the mod you wanted? I mean, let's be honest, isn't your purchase the most important aspect of the deal?

Just like we might pretend that the counterfeiting vendor is putting the money to good use, we could pretend that AQ would do the same. You can sleep better at night with such pretending.

First, you are making assumptions non-stop.
Second you are judging others without any knowledge whatsoever of them except their choice to make a purchase. Many of which purchased from AMERICAN Venders?

So, before you bust a blood vessel over all this - Consider the situation as a whole............or do you automatically give US business participating in your pet annoyance a free pass?
Are you sure your purchase of an expensive original from Greece or the Philippines is not funding anything in your example? Do you really know these people or are you just justifying your position?

We can pretend anything. I thought the thread was for discussion not insults and innuendo.

I don't shop for clones or buy mods just because they are clones or Counterfeits if you wish.
I make purchases to fit current needs.
My list of Non-Clone mods in house attest to that fact.

 

[Jman8]

So we've firmly and undeniably established that there are a few people who feel that the clones are "wrong," no matter what. Some more that think the are OK, but mmmmmm not so much with the emblems and such. And a bunch of others who don't care one way or the other and are going to buy what they buy because they want to buy it. Did I leave anybody out?

So after 29 pages, anybody have a different opinion on this topic then when it started? Mull it over for a bit. I gotta check out something on fasttech.

One thing I learned is how are clones identified exactly in the marketplace as deceptive counterfeiting just isn't appropriate. So, I did google search and a little reading to find out the market is known as 'non-deceptive counterfeiting' which seems like an oxymoron, but is what it is. With the non-deceptive variety, the consumer knows the product is not the original, even while it is technically counterfeit.

I kinda think all of us in this thread agree that deceptive counterfeiting is bad. Why we would all agree on this, but not agree on the other one is interesting, I think. Cause the argument could be made, and kinda sorta is in various google links on the topic, that the non deceptive one is pretty bad within context of open markets. Instead of just one side monkeying with the system, you have two sides participating in an economics game that looks a lot like theft, but convinced, it seems, that this is soooooo not the way to understand what is going on.

I also wonder if someone found a way to outright steal originals from the vendor with the trademark, and then turn around and give out those stolen goods to whoever wants one; wouldn't that be a great deal for all involved? Better than having to pay whatever you all pay for clones, and if you were told it was stolen model, then it wouldn't really be deceptive in your purchase. You would know you had a stolen original, obtained for free, which would seem like the best method for getting products from a consumer's perspective. I mean, yeah, so the original vendor isn't going to be happy with this arrangement, but who cares? As long as second vendor (thief) and consumer (who got free product) is happy, what's the big deal? It would seem the original vendor is being incredibly greedy to make some issue out of this especially considering they can always make more and sell more to those fools customers willing to pay full price.

Alright, I realize that's a little unrealistic. Perhaps if all of us who got the free product gave $1 to the thief for his troubles and to motivate him/her to do more of that for future products, then it would be a little less immoral from the consumer end of things. You think?

 

[crxess]

So what you are saying is you found out technically you were wrong........but you are still right?

Don't know about anyone else, but I'm done trying to figure out your rationalism.

 

[Jman8]

First, you are making assumptions non-stop.
Second you are judging others without any knowledge whatsoever of them except their choice to make a purchase. Many of which purchased from AMERICAN Venders?

I asked questions based on the knowledge of what we are discussing.

So, before you bust a blood vessel over all this - Consider the situation as a whole............or do you automatically give US business participating in your pet annoyance a free pass?

I alluded to this in previous post. I am discussing the principle, and using Chinese counterfeiters as obvious target. They are clearly not the only people involved in this, nor would I guess anything resembling a majority of Chinese businesses are engaged in this sort of practice.

We can pretend anything. I thought the thread was for discussion not insults and innuendo.

Kinda hard to discuss immorality without innuendo when engaged with those who are purporting a position for immorality. Just as my post #282 resulted in responses of innuendo (confused, blink). I guess I could call that insulting, but rather just keep making the point that #282 is making, but wording it differently to overcome the alleged confusion. Post #292 is rather insulting, unless one is open to rebuttal that seeks to clarify the type of immorality we are addressing.

I don't shop for clones or buy mods just because they are clones or Counterfeits if you wish.
I make purchases to fit current needs.
My list of Non-Clone mods in house attest to that fact.

So, then my scenario in post #295 (about obtaining stolen goods for free or way way below cost) ought to be okay in your book if it meets current needs, no? If not, why not?

 

[Rictic]

Which one is the known terrorist and which is the foreign manufacturer?

What would you (or anyone that thinks cloning is kewl) care what the vendor did with the money, as long as you got a good deal and the mod you wanted? I mean, let's be honest, isn't your purchase the most important aspect of the deal?

Just like we might pretend that the counterfeiting vendor is putting the money to good use, we could pretend that AQ would do the same. You can sleep better at night with such pretending.

Damn dude. Hypothetical or not, making your point on the immorality of cloning by asking people if they would buy something made cheaper by Al Qaeda may come across as either trolling or extremist ranting. If there is a point you genuinely want to make about buying clones from China, don't ask people if they will buy from a terrorist group just to save money. Just letting you know in case you actually weren't trying to start something and just spoke out of the passion of your opinion. This is me speaking from a neutral stand point.

 

[Nikkita6]

Who is anyone here, and I mean anyone, to truthfully argue the points of morality?? Really? ... Which one of you is the beacon of Moral uprightness??

No one needs to answer this of course, because I already know the answer ... NO ONE .. not a single one among us. T.R.U.T.H!

I cannot take this thread, or this futile discussion seriously, and I don't understand how, and why so many actually seem ready to burst a vessel over this topic. The original creators of the various "counterfeits" in question are not checking for any of you, not a single one of you. They don't know your name, how you live, where you live, or how you are feeling ...

So while you are all sitting here vociferously engaged in this battle going now where, those "creators/inventors are busy counting their money, and planning their next great creation... as well they should.

How is it that everyone BUT the ripped off creators has a major issue with counterfeiting ... why aren't they complaining, protesting, suing, raging, and ranting? .... Hmmmmm.

Taking on a debate, and battle over an issue that IS NOT your own, that does not affect your ability to breath, eat, sleep, walk, talk, or feed your family on a daily basis doesn't make you right, good, or morally upstanding ... it just makes you seem out of touch, and alignment with reality ... lacking in a genuinely constructive, productive, and fulfilling way to utilize, and express your mental energy.

The incessant complaining, and ranting, and accusing that has gone on in this forum as of late is just .... there are no words. Happy, productive, and fulfilled people don't complain, and rant as a hobby and activity ... as a way to occupy the dead space in their lives.

Morally upstanding Beings DO NOT debate, and discuss morality, THEY LIVE IT ... THEY DEMONSTRATE.

Morally upstanding Beings are usually happy Beings, because they live their lives in accordance with all things conducive to Peace .. not Wars. Morally upstanding Beings are psychologically healthy Beings, and their thoughts, feelings, and actions are in alignment with the Laws of Life, which do not have anything to do with the Ego driven Laws of men.

Why are you sooooo UNHAPPY??

None of you know anything, nor care anything about true Moral righteousness, because if you did, you wouldn't be here on this forum engaging in petty arguments regarding the immorality of clones and counterfeit e cigarette products ... You would be too busy tending to the sick, needy, hungry, abused, displaced, oppressed, and dehumanized citizens of this World, fighting for Humans, not inanimate material objects ... If you cared so much about Morality, and what is right.

The immoral judging immorality ... ahahaha, thats rich. I can hear the Son of Man laughing.... TRUTH!

 

[Jman8]

So what you are saying is you found out technically you were wrong........but you are still right?

Don't know about anyone else, but I'm done trying to figure out your rationalism.

Where do you get that I came up with my being wrong?

Cloning is a term that we throw around for the type of counterfeiting that we are discussing. I sought clarification on what that is. I realized it wasn't the (so called) deceptive kind, because the consumer is involved in the deception at work, therefore I learned, as a result of both participating in this thread and looking to understand how this is viewed in economics (via google search) that it is a process of non-deceptive counterfeiting. I can't say that my additional research says anything positive about this practice and instead treats it as an area of socio-economic study, as to how to consumers justify this practice and the behavior / denials they exercise to rationalize such purchases.

Apart from the morality of the issue, I do think it is fascinating as it clearly goes beyond the eCig industry and is a global phenomenon.