Congressional hearing on E-cigs
- Thread starter Horselady154
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
All Congressional committee public investigation hearings are theater. Every law maker knows their views before the meeting is held and just wish to self aggrandize and demean or agree with the witness. This is obvious because of 3 things.
First, they talk much more than they listen, many times asking no questions or at the most a simple easily answered question and then going back to long winded diatribes about whatever issue is being examined. Generally with some moral outrage thrown in for convincing theater.
Second, they always try to force a favorable (to their beliefs) answer out of the witness, many times with anger or very loud voices trying to intimidate. Of course, if they are in general agreement with the witness, which is pre-determined, they will be gentle and respectful. It can go either way but it seems to be very predictable.
Third, along party lines there is a strategy. This strategy is pre-determined and generally agreed on beforehand and generally followed by all members of the party. This is obvious in their prepared statements that they read (which means it was written beforehand) before engaging the witness in questions. It is exceedingly rare that there will deviate from this strategy during the course of their interview time, regardless of the information being provided by the witness.
So yes, these hearings are theater and it is a rare issue in which any of our lawmakers minds will be changed by having the hearing... they already decided before the meeting that they know best.
First, they talk much more than they listen, many times asking no questions or at the most a simple easily answered question and then going back to long winded diatribes about whatever issue is being examined. Generally with some moral outrage thrown in for convincing theater.
Second, they always try to force a favorable (to their beliefs) answer out of the witness, many times with anger or very loud voices trying to intimidate. Of course, if they are in general agreement with the witness, which is pre-determined, they will be gentle and respectful. It can go either way but it seems to be very predictable.
Third, along party lines there is a strategy. This strategy is pre-determined and generally agreed on beforehand and generally followed by all members of the party. This is obvious in their prepared statements that they read (which means it was written beforehand) before engaging the witness in questions. It is exceedingly rare that there will deviate from this strategy during the course of their interview time, regardless of the information being provided by the witness.
So yes, these hearings are theater and it is a rare issue in which any of our lawmakers minds will be changed by having the hearing... they already decided before the meeting that they know best.
Perhaps someone else has already said this, but I never expected FDA to outright ban anything vaping related.
They're essentially doing a de facto ban on 95+% of the products on the market. Meaning if any company wants to spend say $10 million to get grape flavored eLiquid on the open market, FDA will at least appear to consider it. They may end up rejecting the application and blame it on the way it was filed, but they'll still be able to claim that they didn't outright ban that, or any, flavor.
Last edited:
Yup, the "deeming regulation" thread reads like the minutes of a John Birch society meeting at times. Let's keep the political rants confined to that one thread.
There is a book that explains what is going on right now.
He is a much better writer than a speaker, but ill link a video from the author -
Congress and politicians focusing on vaping while avoiding real matters. 8 people died, so we ignore the 200+ who die ever day due to other reasons.
He is a much better writer than a speaker, but ill link a video from the author -
Congress and politicians focusing on vaping while avoiding real matters. 8 people died, so we ignore the 200+ who die ever day due to other reasons.
Sorry if my previous post above was not clear, congress is focusing on the remaining the tiny fractional percent of teens who get hurt or die, because it's a trend now. And we are paying them too. It is exactly how to be wrong, by ignoring what really kills teens and leaves them hurt, hundreds, daily.
That is the job, market self.
That is the job, market self.
I think you guys are wrong (sorry). I admit I'm guessing though, so it could be me and not you.
But I don't think they're ignoring any of that. I DO think that they believe the American people are either too dumb or to radical to accept the truth. So they're lying to us "for our own good".
They ARE concentrating on the tobacco problem (smoking in particular), and addressing the nicotine-as-a-drug thing. And the history. They're dealing with ALL of it at once: Taxes, deterrents, healthcare, the future generations, and the stock market and the tobacco farmers and the FDA and even the economics of international sales.
They're not spelling it all out. They're NOT telling smokers that nic-free cigs and locked-down devices are next. Not directly. Not in these stupid meetings nor in these declarations from governors.
IDK if the governors are just "sensing" what's coming, making moves before the PMTA time frame hits in May, or if they're actually "in the know" and complicit in the dumbing-down of all this.
But they know, in the end, that it's a "smoke free future" and we have tobacco companies (several of them) proclaiming that out in the open.
They'll throw vaping under the bus while they do this. But they are NOT ignoring the math. They are paying attention to exactly that smoke-free future, and "making a deal with the devil" while they do it.
And they're not ignoring the other causes of death either. They're taking action on the opioid epidemic, suicides, bullying, healthcare, etc. All at once. But in our peculiar political area, money talks too.
We'll see. But I'm convinced that no matter what path we're on, it ends up with vaping as we know it today...changing drastically. Further, I anticipate that as nic-free cigs hit the market and we make changes with complicity from the tobacco companies, that it WILL hit other countries. Canada, the UK even. The UK has taken a slightly different road, but I think they'll still end up in a similar place, with a smoke-free future and concessions to BT in order to get there.
What will other countries that have banned ecigs do? Since they can't provide nic alternatives as well? IDK. I think they'll eventually change over too, in several generations.
As someone alluded to above (DarrenMG), it's the math. But it's a bigger-picture longer-term math...the sociological costs of smoking are too high, when modern alternatives exist. We're only looking at one curve in the road and crying "foul!" but really, it's a much bigger picture, IMHO. Vaping, being too good and not helping BT enough, gets thrown under the bus.
But I don't think they're ignoring any of that. I DO think that they believe the American people are either too dumb or to radical to accept the truth. So they're lying to us "for our own good".
They ARE concentrating on the tobacco problem (smoking in particular), and addressing the nicotine-as-a-drug thing. And the history. They're dealing with ALL of it at once: Taxes, deterrents, healthcare, the future generations, and the stock market and the tobacco farmers and the FDA and even the economics of international sales.
They're not spelling it all out. They're NOT telling smokers that nic-free cigs and locked-down devices are next. Not directly. Not in these stupid meetings nor in these declarations from governors.
IDK if the governors are just "sensing" what's coming, making moves before the PMTA time frame hits in May, or if they're actually "in the know" and complicit in the dumbing-down of all this.
But they know, in the end, that it's a "smoke free future" and we have tobacco companies (several of them) proclaiming that out in the open.
They'll throw vaping under the bus while they do this. But they are NOT ignoring the math. They are paying attention to exactly that smoke-free future, and "making a deal with the devil" while they do it.
And they're not ignoring the other causes of death either. They're taking action on the opioid epidemic, suicides, bullying, healthcare, etc. All at once. But in our peculiar political area, money talks too.
We'll see. But I'm convinced that no matter what path we're on, it ends up with vaping as we know it today...changing drastically. Further, I anticipate that as nic-free cigs hit the market and we make changes with complicity from the tobacco companies, that it WILL hit other countries. Canada, the UK even. The UK has taken a slightly different road, but I think they'll still end up in a similar place, with a smoke-free future and concessions to BT in order to get there.
What will other countries that have banned ecigs do? Since they can't provide nic alternatives as well? IDK. I think they'll eventually change over too, in several generations.
As someone alluded to above (DarrenMG), it's the math. But it's a bigger-picture longer-term math...the sociological costs of smoking are too high, when modern alternatives exist. We're only looking at one curve in the road and crying "foul!" but really, it's a much bigger picture, IMHO. Vaping, being too good and not helping BT enough, gets thrown under the bus.
Ya, I don't know about placing the blame on Juul (though they certainly are not our friend), but I do remember when Juul first came out and they had ads on YouTube. I remember thinking that all the people in the ads using Juul sure looked like they were too young to be of legal age. But maybe I'm just getting old. ....
Given how much they are telling blatant lies in this hearing and given the fact that real vapers will continue with the type of products (namely eLiquid) that's been around for many years (more than 5), I don't see it as plausible that the forthcoming market will have many buyers. In the forthcoming market, it'll be on BT and to some degree FDA to put the kibosh on teen vaping. So very little of the type of acceptable products will done by teens. None of us vapers will regularly use those products. Current smokers are likely very wary of vaping.
The reality is, they are manifesting a huge underground market where everything currently great about vaping nic will be found. Teens will use that market, the cool one. Our truth and facts about vaping won't suddenly cease to exist, so smokers will have option to go that route, even while they will be wary for at least a little while. I don't see those smokers liking the legal products enough to continue with them, but do see them liking vaping enough to want to continue and/or dual use. It won't be a secret that there's another (illegal) market where they can get whatever flavor they want, should they truly want to continue vaping.
But then there's the fact that many vapers claim that if flavors are gone from the legal market, they'll return to smoking. I find that hard to believe (due to the underground market), but also won't deny it, since the claim is said so many times. Smoking stands a pretty good chance of rising. I think teens will continue with the illegal vaping market, since they already are participating illegally in the vaping market anyway.
Were they not lying so blatantly and essentially trying to control the narrative, I think the longer term goals they have could plausibly occur. Because they are lying, and are so far very bad at it, I think they stand a good chance of making vaping very popular in the long term. And not vaping in the market they are bringing forth, but vaping that exists right now stands a very good chance of being immensely popular 10 to 50 years from now. With obviously better innovations coming along.
Their lies will do them in. And eventually saner political leaders will prevail to bring (back) the vaping market that clearly consumers demand.
The reality is, they are manifesting a huge underground market where everything currently great about vaping nic will be found. Teens will use that market, the cool one. Our truth and facts about vaping won't suddenly cease to exist, so smokers will have option to go that route, even while they will be wary for at least a little while. I don't see those smokers liking the legal products enough to continue with them, but do see them liking vaping enough to want to continue and/or dual use. It won't be a secret that there's another (illegal) market where they can get whatever flavor they want, should they truly want to continue vaping.
But then there's the fact that many vapers claim that if flavors are gone from the legal market, they'll return to smoking. I find that hard to believe (due to the underground market), but also won't deny it, since the claim is said so many times. Smoking stands a pretty good chance of rising. I think teens will continue with the illegal vaping market, since they already are participating illegally in the vaping market anyway.
Were they not lying so blatantly and essentially trying to control the narrative, I think the longer term goals they have could plausibly occur. Because they are lying, and are so far very bad at it, I think they stand a good chance of making vaping very popular in the long term. And not vaping in the market they are bringing forth, but vaping that exists right now stands a very good chance of being immensely popular 10 to 50 years from now. With obviously better innovations coming along.
Their lies will do them in. And eventually saner political leaders will prevail to bring (back) the vaping market that clearly consumers demand.
Sorry guys, I have to disagree here on some points. They don't give a rat's behind about health and well being. They care a little more about money. This is more about unbridled control. The removal of a freedom. The step by step breaking of the spirit. A question we all have to seriously consider is what will they take next?
Yeah, been bracing myself for the same response. But I had to say it. It is what it is. Some will realize it, sadly, some will not...
I really wish someone would have gotten this guy a drink of water.Also someone please grab that phone from the lady behind him.
That article is a repost (everything on Yahoo is a repost) of a National Review article written by Kat Timpf. She's a favorite of mine to watch, as a regular on Greg Gutfeld's late night weekend show on Fox News. They usually discuss topics like Rep Tlaib's crap show with a comedy spin. I think she also has her own show on their pay service that I don't subscribe to. I'll have to remember to catch Gutfeld this weekend and see if this topic gets discussed. They're funny and can get a bit vicious.
I've been thinking the same things. Most notably the tendency of lawmakers and so called medical professionals to consider vaping a subset of smoking, or at least just another way to use tobacco. Stupid Rep Tlaib's remarks "you're still smoking" is the very embodiment of that. When anyone that uses vape products knows that's just silly. Unfortunately, 95% of the ignorant masses that watch and vote for these people don't know any better either. Regardless of how it manifests, what we're seeing is ignorance, deliberate and willful in many cases.
I believe that many users of flavors will go back to smoking. Participation here represents a tiny part of the total number that vape. We're the few that care enough about doing it right and learning about it, to participate here. Add to that, we're generally a mature group due to these old style forums appealing less to younger folks who tend toward the latest social media app instead.
My point is, at least 90% of people who vape learn everything about it word of mouth, and from the retailers at the store they buy their product from. Most of them barely care enough to bother with the learning curve and little extra effort that vaping takes than smoking. I can't tell you how many people I've met who vape, that, for lack of knowledge or interest, also consider vaping the same thing as smoking. Just like the idiot politicians and medical pros doing the congress dog & pony show. In fact, wouldn't think twice about picking up some smokes the day they aren't able to buy the vape they use at the gas station they always shop at.
This is exactly how it's been for decades and decades.
I'm about as liberal as it gets.
I agree 100%.
I've tried to warn people ever since I started on this forum that turning vaping into a partisan issue was a BIG mistake, except for using slightly different ways to reach people on each side of the aisle.
The only "regulations" that MIGHT have stopped what's been happening would have been legalization, and regulation of the 
markets at the federal level.
markets at the federal level.
I agree 100%. That's a conversation I'm hoping to have over in the CF. Come by sometimeThe only "regulations" that MIGHT have stopped what's been happening would have been legalization, and regulation of the
Ticking off the neighbors on Facebook..
Govt wants your:
Guns - even though you have never threatened anyone
My vape- because some drug addicts mis-used the equipment
Might as well change legal drinking age to 65 to avoid all the harm it causes
Remember the govt knows best right?
Ps,, don't forget to swallow those cancer packed meds the FDA approved
Govt wants your:
Guns - even though you have never threatened anyone
My vape- because some drug addicts mis-used the equipment
Might as well change legal drinking age to 65 to avoid all the harm it causes
Remember the govt knows best right?
Ps,, don't forget to swallow those cancer packed meds the FDA approved
Ex-FDA chief Gottlieb blames outbreak of deadly vaping illness on illegal nicotine products
CDC Principal Deputy Director Dr. Anne Schuchat flagged e-cigarette leader Juul's use of salts in its vaping devices as particularly dangerous for teenagers.
"Juul products use nicotine salts, which can lead to much more available nicotine," she said, adding that doctors believe the salts allow nicotine to "cross the blood brain barrier and lead to potentially more effect on the developing brain."
The FDA is currently finalizing its guidance to remove all nontobacco flavors of e-cigarettes, including mint and menthol, from the market within 30 days.
"If you ask kids what they use, they don't say 'I vape,' they say, 'I Juul,'" said Gottlieb, who led an anti-vaping crusade when he was the head of the FDA.
"Juul products use nicotine salts, which can lead to much more available nicotine," she said, adding that doctors believe the salts allow nicotine to "cross the blood brain barrier and lead to potentially more effect on the developing brain."
The FDA is currently finalizing its guidance to remove all nontobacco flavors of e-cigarettes, including mint and menthol, from the market within 30 days.
"If you ask kids what they use, they don't say 'I vape,' they say, 'I Juul,'" said Gottlieb, who led an anti-vaping crusade when he was the head of the FDA.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
