Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I would hesitate about pushing them as facts, however.
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Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I would hesitate about pushing them as facts, however.
Theoretically is the key point. The premise of this mod is that watts consumed is the only factor in vaping and that the actual heat (temperature) of the vapor is a watts only function. As I've said you don't vape watts.
With my Joye atties as they age from use, performance starts to lag, most times the ohms have not changed, hence watts consumed have not changed. This atty now needs volts/current/watts adjusting (sometimes some sort of cleaning can help) as there is nothing 'sweet' about it anymore. These atties were chucked when I only had simple battery mods.
Another example, on a battery only mod, I've had Joye atties start at 2.1Ω and eventually drop to ~1.7Ω. At these LR type ohms does this atty now perform like a LR atty even though the current draw and the watts consumed are the same? No it does not, but the the Darwin's premise say it does. Again we don't vape watts. If I move it to VV and tweak the volts to simulate the Darwin's solution (which in this case means lowering volts) to get back to the original watts have I now restored the atty to it's former glory? Nope. The same watts again just ain't cutting it. It does not miraculously return to the same vape/performance. Baked on crud accumulation can impact resistance and at the same time impair/distort the 'theoretical' relationship of watts to actual heat produced (and certainly vapor production). It does not miraculously return to the same vape/performance.
There are other factors outside of watts that also influence true heat and performance. You as an eGo cone user understand this.
With Joye atties as they age and the draw stiffens they start to run hotter even at the same resistance/watts.
If the Darwin's goal is to actually provide a consistent vape, it wouldn't be tinkering with the power/watt, for real world use it would be a temperature controlled device monitoring and adjusting for the true heat of the vapor.
We also have to be careful with the new buzzword, PWM. I know for a fact that you have built and use a mod that uses PWM to control the output voltage. Nice concept BTW.
Yes, actually. It does seem to work very well. I'm not using it constantly, as it is on my wife's eGo. But I initially set it up and have tried it out a few times since yesterday. She's doing very well with it and seems to like it quite a bit.
I seriously doubt they'll be able to sell it near a $100 price point. I'd think $150 would be fabulously cheap, and I'd expect something more in the range of $180-$230.
You might be. The sweet spot (as expressed in watts) will be different between atomizer types (e.g. 510 and 801). If you're staying within one type of atomizer, that won't be an issue. However, the other part of the equation is that the sweet spot for different juices is also different. So you might like juice X on a 510 at 8 watts, but prefer juice Y on a 510 at 9 watts. So if you only use one type of atomizer and one type of juice, yes, you can absolutely just dial in to your sweet spot and never have to think about it again. Of course, if you're not concerned about hitting the "perfect" power for your preferences (as I'm sure many are not), you should be able to find something that's good enough for your regular atty/juice combos, and then you won't need to fiddle with settings, either.
But whatever your preferences, this sort of device will (in most cases) require less on-the-fly adjustment than with variable voltage. The real question is whether that's worth the price to the individual consumer. I've already stated that I plan to buy one of these if the price is right (under $200, yes...over $200, I'll have to think about it).
That's an excellent point, and I hadn't taken it into consideration. I was assuming only new atomizers.
Theoretically is the key point. The premise of this mod is that watts consumed is the only factor in vaping and that the actual heat (temperature) of the vapor is a watts only function. As I've said you don't vape watts.
With my Joye atties as they age from use, performance starts to lag, most times the ohms have not changed, hence watts consumed have not changed. This atty now needs volts/current/watts adjusting (sometimes some sort of cleaning can help) as there is nothing 'sweet' about it anymore. These atties were chucked when I only had simple battery mods.
Another example, on a battery only mod, I've had Joye atties start at 2.1Ω and eventually drop to ~1.7Ω. At these LR type ohms does this atty now perform like a LR atty even though the current draw and the watts consumed are the same? No it does not, but the the Darwin's premise say it does. Again we don't vape watts. If I move it to VV and tweak the volts to simulate the Darwin's solution (which in this case means lowering volts) to get back to the original watts have I now restored the atty to it's former glory? Nope. The same watts again just ain't cutting it. It does not miraculously return to the same vape/performance. Baked on crud accumulation can impact resistance and at the same time impair/distort the 'theoretical' relationship of watts to actual heat produced (and certainly vapor production). It does not miraculously return to the same vape/performance.
There are other factors outside of watts that also influence true heat and performance. You as an eGo cone user understand this.
With Joye atties as they age and the draw stiffens they start to run hotter even at the same resistance/watts.
If the Darwin's goal is to actually provide a consistent vape, it wouldn't be tinkering with the power/watt, for real world use it would be a temperature controlled device monitoring and adjusting for the true heat of the vapor.
We also have to be careful with the new buzzword, PWM. I know for a fact that you have built and use a mod that uses PWM to control the output voltage. Nice concept BTW.
Now that post actually makes sense. Wrt the VV eGo, thank you but it's not my concept. I always wanted a VV eGo the credit goes to Mamu for her find (board). This is one sweet device though
Well, after the Darwin hits the market I hope the supplier thinks about Rev 1.
Add a temperature sensor for your thumb, and program in a MOOD sensing function.
Add a temperature sensor for your thumb, and program in a MOOD sensing function.
@Angus@@-This is not just a hairbrained opinion... it is you should hesitate making statements like that when earlier you stated that you don’t understand any of the electronics behind these devices . My opinion is based on a degree in electrical engineering - not 15 minutes of google searches. It's an opinion that others who clearly understand what's going on technically, have shared here and tried to explain in non technical terms to help those who want to understand what's behind the statement "it doesn't matter"-
Make a comment like that and I think the burden of proof is on You... common - put some numbers up... how about starting with the temperature coefficient for nichrome 60? Run it through at 350F (vaping temperature).... negligible.
How about the fact that in use, you set your device for voltage or power based on what feels right when the atty is hot so even if there were some fluctuation due to the warm up of the atty, it wouldn't matter...
Do you have an oscilloscope trace showing that the pulse amplitudes or duty cycle changes once the atty is heated? Maybe over a 8-10 second draw? Mapped against current? I’d like to see it…
Where's the benefit of managing power over voltage? Please elaborate.
With all due respect, these are facts, not just opinion- if you want to argue facts please feel free to argue them with proof that there's an error, or other facts… I’m not beyond making errors but don't discredit things that by your own admission you don't understand.
WillyB/Switched- You hit the nail on the head with "You don't vape watts".... Watts is the power consumed by your atty.. not a measure of vapor quantity or temperature of vapor. I agree with your posts and I think we’re converging on the same point.... constant wattage isn't a bad thing but it does not guarantee constant vapor across different attys or even the same atty over a long period of time (as it degrades) any more than regulating voltage to a constant RMS value - in effect it's a different means to the same end .... it’s as simple as it gets.
Make a comment like that and I think the burden of proof is on You... common - put some numbers up... how about starting with the temperature coefficient for nichrome 60? Run it through at 350F (vaping temperature).... negligible.
How about the fact that in use, you set your device for voltage or power based on what feels right when the atty is hot so even if there were some fluctuation due to the warm up of the atty, it wouldn't matter...
Do you have an oscilloscope trace showing that the pulse amplitudes or duty cycle changes once the atty is heated? Maybe over a 8-10 second draw? Mapped against current? I’d like to see it…
Where's the benefit of managing power over voltage? Please elaborate.
With all due respect, these are facts, not just opinion- if you want to argue facts please feel free to argue them with proof that there's an error, or other facts… I’m not beyond making errors but don't discredit things that by your own admission you don't understand.
WillyB/Switched- You hit the nail on the head with "You don't vape watts".... Watts is the power consumed by your atty.. not a measure of vapor quantity or temperature of vapor. I agree with your posts and I think we’re converging on the same point.... constant wattage isn't a bad thing but it does not guarantee constant vapor across different attys or even the same atty over a long period of time (as it degrades) any more than regulating voltage to a constant RMS value - in effect it's a different means to the same end .... it’s as simple as it gets.
Just for the record as one who who is using a properly made and configured (but not expensive or hard to make) mod respond to muttSRT's assertion that VV mods do not maintain a constant output, but drop as the cell's voltage drops.Now that post actually makes sense. Wrt the VV eGo, thank you but it's not my concept. I always wanted a VV eGo the credit goes to Mamu for her find (board). This is one sweet device though
And I would also guess that the high efficency, PWM driven regulator in your mod is easily giving you 12+ hours of vaping with standard easy to find cells.
This, this is what I've been saying all along. Unless I'm mistaken this unit does not use PWM. If it does, then that's a different story altogether and I would be very interested if it is a true PWM unit regardless of it being a VW or a VV unit, makes no difference in "the real world".
I'm not sure but I'm under the impression that it does use PWM but it's still not really different- there are other pwm devices to choose from- it's not the first and there are several round the corner.
Ditto- I'm holding a beta of the Provari (I'm allowed to say that now) - it does all of this and vapes consistently from start to finish. I haven't blown a single atty in almost two weeks, today I vaped 15 hrs and just shy of 5ml on a single 18490 IMR- it still is putting out 3.5V just like I set it on its digital display this morning, and I'll bet the IMR is pretty drained right now....
Also to put some more credence behind different attys having different sweet spots, I'm using 5.8V with a 3.5 Ohm, 4.4V with a 2.2 ohm and 3.5V with a 1.7 ohm atty... same juice - different attys, different power levels....the other beta testers are having similar experiences.
I've checked the loaded output on the unit and it is quite accurate 3.3V up to 6V.
The unit is capable of telling you the resistance accurately as well and has a few other nice features too -.
Word is it should be on the street within the next two weeks, it comes from a well respected vendor who's been in business for quite a while, and it's a real production quality device....one of the testers said today that it has the build quality of his Super T ...
So I'm still trying to understand what's really different and compelling about the Darwin that other pwm devices don't have.....
jim,
With the values you gave the upper voltage is 31.8% above the middle voltage, while the wattage increase was only 9.2%.
Going from the middle value to the lower, the voltage decreased 20.4% while the wattage decreased a little less at 18.1%.
Quite a range in voltage from 3.5 to 5.8 (66%), and a little less range in wattage 7.2 to 9.6 (33%).
I take it you like the display feature on the provari?
With the values you gave the upper voltage is 31.8% above the middle voltage, while the wattage increase was only 9.2%.
Going from the middle value to the lower, the voltage decreased 20.4% while the wattage decreased a little less at 18.1%.
Quite a range in voltage from 3.5 to 5.8 (66%), and a little less range in wattage 7.2 to 9.6 (33%).
I take it you like the display feature on the provari?
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While this doesn't look like something I would buy, I appreciate the maker's efforts at looking at vaping from a new angle. That can only be good for pushing the pace of technolological advancment.
Couple questions:
Does the Darwin display the resistance of the attys that are on it? Like a multimeter?
If an atomizer starts shorting out are there protections in place so the unit doesn't suffer?
Do the 2 batteries operate in series or parallel?
Is there a Hello Kitty version?
Price?
Couple questions:
Does the Darwin display the resistance of the attys that are on it? Like a multimeter?
If an atomizer starts shorting out are there protections in place so the unit doesn't suffer?
Do the 2 batteries operate in series or parallel?
Is there a Hello Kitty version?
Price?
Let's just get a couple of things out of the way, shall we? I never said I didn't understand the electronics. I said I wasn't an expert. More than a subtle differentiation, I think. And while having your EE degree is respectable, I do the same job as every EE in my department, but got my knowledge through a couple of decades of experience rather than going to college for it. So I won't be kneeling before you saying "Sorry master, please don't beat me."
As I have stated before, there is a subtle difference. I've even said that to the average vaper, it probably wouldn't make much of a difference at all. But I would be lying if I said that I didn't notice a difference, and that's from actual use of the device, and not just theorizing about what it can and cannot do. I am very sure that for some folks, it just won't be worth it.
I don't have a "dog in this hunt". I'm not keeping the beta unit that I am testing. I don't have a stake in the company that produces them. I just don't have any reason to make it out to be something that it isn't. I'm also not going to get extremely technical with my reviews. To the majority of people, it would just be a ton of boring gibberish. I'll leave the arguing over technical aspects of the device to the supplier when he's ready to announce them. Until then, I will continue to review it based off of my hands-on experience with it.
Augus,
I hope you don't feel like you're getting flak over doing this review. I think most of us here understand that while we won't be getting a "secret" inside evaluation of the clockwork we will be getting an open unbiased objective review from a vapor. Most of the potential customers will be just like you. A little money to burn, likes gadgets, is a little cautious when it comes to supplier hype. Eventually we will hear from the supplier about the earth shattering technological break through this device really is. How it senses changes in atty resistance, the barometric air pressure, and minute changes in earth's inclination 1000's a times a second. Imagine that, 1000's of times a second. I can hardly wait until the unbiased reviews have been completed and the supplier hype to start. Isn't that the typical progression? Then the satisfied customers, the "I love my Ford because it's the best" people, start clamoring how wonderful this new mod is.
So don't feel like members are picking on you. You are just a pawn in the overall marketing plan.
Eventually, independent engineers will get a hold of this device, tear it apart, and explain it without the hype. Better than something else or not, it's a new device for the gadget collectors. The fact that it might be a pretty good vape will be lagniappe.
Hello Kitty? Yeah right
I can't wait to see this thing with a juice tank, auxiliary velcro on battery pack, and spare double stack atty magazine. A laser pointer would not add much to cost and make it a "board room" device. Will there be a "app" to use it as a flashlight? How about a "wifi hotspot" mod? Does it have that much computing power?
(just poking fun folks)
I hope you don't feel like you're getting flak over doing this review. I think most of us here understand that while we won't be getting a "secret" inside evaluation of the clockwork we will be getting an open unbiased objective review from a vapor. Most of the potential customers will be just like you. A little money to burn, likes gadgets, is a little cautious when it comes to supplier hype. Eventually we will hear from the supplier about the earth shattering technological break through this device really is. How it senses changes in atty resistance, the barometric air pressure, and minute changes in earth's inclination 1000's a times a second. Imagine that, 1000's of times a second. I can hardly wait until the unbiased reviews have been completed and the supplier hype to start. Isn't that the typical progression? Then the satisfied customers, the "I love my Ford because it's the best" people, start clamoring how wonderful this new mod is.
So don't feel like members are picking on you. You are just a pawn in the overall marketing plan.
Eventually, independent engineers will get a hold of this device, tear it apart, and explain it without the hype. Better than something else or not, it's a new device for the gadget collectors. The fact that it might be a pretty good vape will be lagniappe.
Hello Kitty? Yeah right
I can't wait to see this thing with a juice tank, auxiliary velcro on battery pack, and spare double stack atty magazine. A laser pointer would not add much to cost and make it a "board room" device. Will there be a "app" to use it as a flashlight? How about a "wifi hotspot" mod? Does it have that much computing power?
(just poking fun folks)
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I don't, really. It did irk me just a little bit having someone try and shove their degree in my face as if whatever I said doesn't matter. (Well, at least that is how it felt to me.) I did have to chuckle a bit to myself when 5 minutes later an electrical engineer came to my cubicle asking for help on one of his projects. "Ugh, Angus no understand. Why brainy man come to dumb Angus to help design capacitor bank for 230kV switching station?" I'm not trying to dismiss anyone else, but it is a bit strange when people tell me that "These equations and laws say that this doesn't work" when I am puffing away thinking "Oh, really? Fascinating."
It's a great mod. That's my opinion. And right now, all we have to go by are opinions until the specs are released and the supplier can talk it up for himself. Is it the "OMG Ubermod of the Century!!!!"? Not really my call to make. (Of course, if they make it half the size and add juice feeding....)
And yes, it realllllllly appeals to my "Oooh! New gadget!" fixation. (I really need to tone that part down a bit). No denying that, lol.
The supplier is going to be giving me a list of some of the technical specs for the device, and I'll be posting those along with pics of the unit in the production case very soon. Hopefully the supplier will be making an announcement of his own pretty soon, as well, with all of the details that I've been sworn to secrecy about. He can field all the questions. (Sorry Brandon, but it looks like you'll have your hands full with this crowd! Haha... ) Try and be gentle with him, as he seems to be a really nice guy.
It's a great mod. That's my opinion. And right now, all we have to go by are opinions until the specs are released and the supplier can talk it up for himself. Is it the "OMG Ubermod of the Century!!!!"? Not really my call to make. (Of course, if they make it half the size and add juice feeding....)
And yes, it realllllllly appeals to my "Oooh! New gadget!" fixation. (I really need to tone that part down a bit). No denying that, lol.
The supplier is going to be giving me a list of some of the technical specs for the device, and I'll be posting those along with pics of the unit in the production case very soon. Hopefully the supplier will be making an announcement of his own pretty soon, as well, with all of the details that I've been sworn to secrecy about. He can field all the questions. (Sorry Brandon, but it looks like you'll have your hands full with this crowd! Haha... ) Try and be gentle with him, as he seems to be a really nice guy.
That's my new 7 week old Chihuahua pup. His name is Elvis. He demanded I use him as my avatar so everyone could bask in his cuteness.
My cousin just got one lol. What a neat little dog. Loves the kids.
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