Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Eskie]

One of the requirements to have a PMTA approved is to show that the new tobacco product you're introducing is "appropriate for the protection of public health". That is a very high bar. IIRC, only two PMTAs have ever been approved; one for some Swedish snus, and the other for iqos.

I suppose BAT (British American tobacco) has or will seek PMTA approval for their Heat-not-Burn product, GLO, but I'm not aware of anyone else up to that challenge.

interesting that IQOS was able to achieve that on the basis the product produced fewer concerning chemicals than combustible tobacco. They also agreed to sell it through dedicated stores to assure age verifications and status of the consumer as a smoker, refusing to sell to non-smokers and apparently vapers. That in itself is not that high a bar for vaping as we already know it produces less than even a HEET system.
If that can be leveraged with sales of vape gear only through dedicated vapor shops and lab reports showing at a minimum equivalence in chemical production as a HEET device, it’ll be somewhat difficult to not use that as evidence of arbitrary rejection of an application when they’ve already allowed something with similar profile risk to be marketed.
Now they can do anything they want, within reason, but it is some defense against an outright rejection without clear cause by the agency.

 

[sofarsogood]

There is a Need to database some of these numbers. How important are they to what states? Tens of thousands is less than one state employee. It’s just not a significant number. Even a million isn’t that big at the state level.

My home state is michigan, which has a flavor ban. "Michigan received $1.2166 billion (estimated) in revenue from tobacco settlement payments and taxes in fiscal year 2019. Of this, the state allocated $1.6 million in state funds to tobacco prevention in fiscal year 2019, 1.5% of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's annual spending target" You can google your state or find charts with all the states. Remember it's a combination of tx and MSA payments. The states with the highest tobacco taxes are over represented on the list of state with bans. Of course it's about the money. It's ALWAYS about the money.

 

[Rossum]

$per annum is what matters for budgeting

Cigarette tax in my home state of PA is $2.60/pack. At my former habit of 2 PAD, they'd be collecting $1898 per year in taxes from me alone. But let's say the average smoker only goes through about 1 PAD and thus only pays the state about $1000 in taxes per year. There are over 1.7 million smokers in the state. That's $1.7 BILLION dollars a year in tax revenues. I think I could easily employ ~10,000 people for that (average $100k in salary and $70k in befits and overhead each).

 

[mikepetro]

"An unintended consequence: Many of those in Massachusetts who were using now-banned vape products are shifting back to tobacco products — or worse, starting to use tobacco products for the first time.

Less than two weeks into the statewide vaping ban, convenience store owners have already noted increased sales of conventional cigarettes. Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 1,000 deaths each day in the United States."

Vaping bans like Massachusetts’ will not stop illness outbreak | Opinion

 

[AttyPops]

^^ Yep, and that's the self-fulfilling prophesy others have mentioned earlier..."Vaping leads to smoking" setup. "Make the stats happen!" <groan>

At least here in MI, they didn't ban all vaping devices entirely. So vapers can still get tobacco-only flavors, or unflavored. For now. We'll see after May's deeming.

 

[mikepetro]

"“I understand the intent here,” he said, but the state’s ban may actually “enhance the sale of black market vape products as consumers no longer have access to a regulated tested supply,” Hudalla told The Post."

https://nypost.com/2019/10/04/expert-says-massachusetts-vaping-ban-could-accelerate-epidemic/

 

[Rossum]

"An unintended consequence: Many of those in Massachusetts who were using now-banned vape products are shifting back to tobacco products — or worse, starting to use tobacco products for the first time.

Less than two weeks into the statewide vaping ban, convenience store owners have already noted increased sales of conventional cigarettes. Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 1,000 deaths each day in the United States."

Vaping bans like Massachusetts’ will not stop illness outbreak | Opinion

Unintended? I'd say it was totally predictable, and thus must question the "unintended' part.

 

[Rossum]

$3.51 per pack. That's the cigarette tax in Massachusetts.

The state is also $75 billion in debt -- over $11,000 per resident.

 

[AttyPops]

$3.51 per pack. That's the cigarette tax in Massachusetts.

The state is also $75 billion in debt -- over $11,000 per resident.

Still not buying it.

It's be 10x easier just to tax the e-juice.

 

[Rossum]

Still not buying it.
It's be 10x easier just to tax the e-juice.

I don't think so, Atty. You can "import" 100 ml of nic and make hundreds of 30 ml bottles of juice from it, that market will go "informal" very quickly if it's taxed too heavily.

 

[AttyPops]

I don't think so, Atty. You can "import" 100 ml of nic and make hundreds of 30 ml bottles of juice from it, that market will go "informal" very quickly if it's taxed too heavily.

You could say that about cigs too, or restrict e-juice the same way as tobacco.

I mean people do roll their own.

I'm sure it's about money, Rossum. Money is a medium of exchange. But who's money, and what money? It's more than tobacco taxes. It's healthcare costs. It's WHO gets the money (read BT). It's all sorts of "money" things.

Basically, saying "Money" doesn't say much. Anything can be abstracted to a cost-benefit analysis. Your point is [thankfully] more specific than just a simple "it's money" statement, but there's so much money so many places.

 

[Blackcat 1369]

Right because a nationwide deadly, mysterious lung disease is more juicy than a handful of teens doing something they shouldn't be doing (per usual). And they seem all too happy to accept wrong information for the sake of a good story. Pathetic. That's why we have competing news media channels/websites now. And that only adds to the confusion. It didn't use to be this way (or am I only showing my age? Lol) Where's good ole' Walter Cronkite? He'd be appalled at the way his industry is today.

Sadly, Mr Cronkite cannot weigh in. But I wonder what Dan Rathers take on this whole mess is? He had a presence when the whole “News and Guts” thing started, but he seems to be MIA the last six months or so. I miss unbiased reporting of facts with opinion kept to a minimum...

 

[Rossum]

You could say that about cigs too, or restrict e-juice the same way as tobacco.

I mean people do roll their own.

It's much harder to smuggle cigs (or RYO tobacco) than straight, undiluted nic.

How long does a liter of nic base last you? For me, it's just about four years. Of course that's a 10% solution of nicotine. Straight, undiluted, it would only be 100 ml and fit handily in my pocket.

How much volume would four years worth of cigs (or RYO tobacco) take up?

<time passes while Rossum plays with Excel>

A pack of cigs has a volume of about 105 cubic centimeters and weighs about 28 grams. Rossum used to smoke 2 PAD, or 2920 packs in four years. Weight of four years with of cigs: 81.7 kg. Volume: 311 liters, or about 11 cubic feet. Not gonna fit in your pocket. Not even gonna fit in a suitcase.

 

[Baditude]

Here's a video that I found interesting on the status of vaping in Canada. What's happening here in the US is beginning to happen in Canada, too.

 

[AttyPops]

It's a plot! Who knows what BT will put in the new vape, eh?

 

[NolaMel]

Here's a video that I found interesting on the status of vaping in Canada. What's happening here is beginning to happen in Canada, too.

Everyone should watch this

 

[Brewdawg1181]

Sadly, Mr Cronkite cannot weigh in. But I wonder what Dan Rathers take on this whole mess is? He had a presence when the whole “News and Guts” thing started, but he seems to be MIA the last six months or so. I miss unbiased reporting of facts with opinion kept to a minimum...

Dan Rathers? The liar who was discredited multiple times? I guess it would be entertaining to hear what he thinks of current journalistic integrity.

 

[sofarsogood]

Cigarette tax in my home state of PA is $2.60/pack. At my former habit of 2 PAD, they'd be collecting $1898 per year in taxes from me alone. But let's say the average smoker only goes through about 1 PAD and thus only pays the state about $1000 in taxes per year. There are over 1.7 million smokers in the state. That's $1.7 BILLION dollars a year in tax revenues. I think I could easily employ ~10,000 people for that (average $100k in salary and $70k in befits and overhead each).

They talk nonesense. We know it. They know we no it and they don't care. I've seen this before. They are distracted by an agenda they aren't discussing. It's a safe bet there is something we didn't know we didn't know. Now I believe there's something we know we don't know and we should look for it. It would be a plausible explanation that's as likely or even more likely than what they are saying. So at the moment my best theory, that seems to explain the last few years including the current situation is they want to completely abolish vaping and put heat sticks in it's place, not because it healthier but beccause it can be taxed the same as cigarettes.

It might be that the tainted THC cart situation upset the plan and forced actions that wouldn't have happened at this point. The reason I'm looking for alternative explanations is because I'm certain the public officials we're hearing are not being honest.

 

[NolaMel]

On Friday, October 11, The White House is expected to make an announcement regarding the FDA regulations of vapor products. We are anticipating this announcement to include the agency’s plans for regulating flavored vapor products other than tobacco.

Following this announcement, later in the evening, Donald Trump will be holding a rally at the Lake Charles Civic Center.

 

[AttyPops]

We are anticipating this announcement to include the agency’s plans for regulating flavored vapor products other than tobacco.

Well, I suppose as long as they allow unflavored products on the market and don't mandate BT's ownership of it (cough, not expecting that much luck) vapers will be OK. DIY flavor shots. Shops might even survive the onslaught for a while. Come May, IDK.