Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

Train2

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I'm gonna guess you'll get "Response #4" this time!!

They all include the phrase "the regulations do not ban e-cigarettes..." and the rest is mostly blah blah blabetty blah.



I really hate the FDA. Long post - a rant- skip it, I just need to get it out of my system.

From facebook:

Me:
When Congress gave the FDA authority to regulate tobacco I'm sure they did not envision that authority would extend to creating a Catch-22 PMTA system that would shut down thousands of small businesses and put hundreds of thousands of citizens out of jobs. Under the regulations anything even remotely connected to vaping can be deemed a "tobacco product," even if it contains no tobacco, or, in fact, any organic material. It's like deeming a glass an alcohol product because there is wine in it.

America needs jobs. America needs to support small businesses in their efforts to innovate. An application system so expensive and so complex that only Big Tobacco companies have the funds to try to be approved ("try" as in there is no guarantee even they will be successful) is detrimental to our economy.

The FDA's reply to me:
If they contain nicotine derived from tobacco, e-cigarettes meet the definition of a “tobacco product” and are regulated accordingly. These new regulations do not ban e-cigarettes, but rather provide pathways for products to enter, or stay on, the market and incentivize manufacturers to conduct research & submit data to establish the public health benefit of e-cigarettes.

Me back:
Yeah, right. After 40 years of smoking I quit 4 years ago with ecigs. Nothing else I tried worked.

I have been reading the Final Regulatory Impact Analysis and it is flawed. Since there isn't enough current information available on the economic impact of the Deeming requirements put on ecigs, the analysis uses outdated statistics to extrapolate what they *think* the market might be. The market has grown beyond what was imagined in 2014.

Your own statement in the Deeming regs suggests a negative impact on small businesses:

"In a broad sense, because producers of ENDS products would need to incur sizable costs to be able to continue selling their products, we can expect the deeming rule to reduce the number of distinct ENDS products available on the market, relative to what would have been observed in the absence of the rule.

"However, chances are good that numbers of distinct ENDS products would fall anyway in years ahead, as competition causes consolidation of sales in the most popular product lines; as a result, the change caused by the rule has to be measured against an inherently dynamic counterfactual. For present purposes, an important point is that, although numbers of distinct ENDS products are expected to decline as the final rule takes effect, FDA expects that a range of delivery systems and e-liquids will remain available to consumers.

"Consolidated" means to me that large companies that can afford to submit PMTAs will buy out smaller ones and the "range of delivery systems and e-liquids" will be limited to products by those same large companies.

I wonder what, if anything, they will say back.
 

nicnik

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"However, chances are good that numbers of distinct ENDS products would fall anyway in years ahead, as competition causes consolidation of sales in the most popular product lines; as a result, the change caused by the rule has to be measured against an inherently dynamic counterfactual.
They're ignoring the fact that the technology is rapidly advancing, so their claim that the market would be consolidating even without the regulations, is not accurate.

Large tobacco companies have been trying to consolidate the market, by buying what were some of the best selling brands, but they've been way behind with innovating. If their theory was true, you'd already be seeing some of that effect, after a decade of e-cigs being marketed. No, the market has only been expanding, and would be for some time to come, without FDA interference.
 

The Ocelot

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I'm gonna guess you'll get "Response #4" this time!!

They all include the phrase "the regulations do not ban e-cigarettes..." and the rest is mostly blah blah blabetty blah.

#4 FDABOT? How many of my tax dollars went to create it?
 

Mazinny

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Juul MIGHT get approval, it'd be interesting to see the environmental reports associated with the nicotine salts, though they'll probably be blacked out for proprietary reasons.

SOME of NJoy's products MIGHT get approval, like the dailies, and maybe the rechargeable cigalikes. Do they have prefilled sealed clearos? I highly doubt any of their liquid lines, including the Artist Collection, will get approval.
Yes, they do have pre-filled sealed clearos ( in 15 mg/ml only). Already done toxicity testing on the flavors and everything !They have definitely been hedging their bets. Has anyone heard of or read a statement from Njoy in the last 20 days ?

launch_product_pages26.png

 
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The Ocelot

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Yes, they do have pre-filled sealed clearos ( in 15 mg/ml only). Already done toxicity testing on the flavors and everything !They have definitely been hedging their bets. Has anyone heard of or read a statement from Njoy in the last 20 days ?

launch_product_pages26.png



NJOY got a patent on an ecig in 2006. I saw the page once, but haven't been able to find it since. I have always suspected that NJOY is the unnamed product alluded to in the Deeming regs.
 

The Ocelot

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Lessifer

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Yes, they do have pre-filled sealed clearos ( in 15 mg/ml only). Already done toxicity testing on the flavors and everything !They have definitely been hedging their bets. Has anyone heard of or read a statement from Njoy in the last 20 days ?

launch_product_pages26.png


Is the pre-filled tank ego, 510, or proprietary connection? I've always thought they would prepare themselves to get something approved. I hope that doesn't mean that they won't step up and fight for the rest of vaping.
 

Mazinny

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Is the pre-filled tank ego, 510, or proprietary connection? I've always thought they would prepare themselves to get something approved. I hope that doesn't mean that they won't step up and fight for the rest of vaping.
It's eGo threaded.

I am a little concerned about their intentions tbh. Not a good sign, that they haven't issued a statement yet.

I gave them the benefit of the doubt when they changed course on flavors, mostly because of their previous legal success against the FDA. We really need them on our side.
 

The Ocelot

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Is the pre-filled tank ego, 510, or proprietary connection? I've always thought they would prepare themselves to get something approved. I hope that doesn't mean that they won't step up and fight for the rest of vaping.

Perhaps their marketing research would indicate that a 510 connection would be more attractive to vapers who have components they need to utilize.

7yda.jpg
 

Katya

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NJOY got a patent on an ecig in 2006. I saw the page once, but haven't been able to find it since. I have always suspected that NJOY is the unnamed product alluded to in the Deeming regs.

Obtaining a patent does not a predicate product make. Per FDA regs, the predicate product must have been marketed in the US before Feb. 15, 2007. However, Njoy (Weiss) was one of the earliest importers of ecigs from China, along with Ruyan. But Ruyan was not being officially marketed in the US in 2007.

Per Oliver's post from May 6, 2014, "Bill Bartowski, former president of Ruyan America, confirmed at SFATA's conference yesterday that the earliest product on the US market was May 2007. There are no SE predicates."

We've been discussing this whole predicate nonsense ad nauseam for two years. Have at it (courtesy of Tom Baker :D):

The Predicate Product of 2006 for FDA: Meet the Ruyan V8 , Early Innovator and Marketer of E-Ciig Vaping
 

The Ocelot

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Obtaining a patent does not a predicate product make. Per FDA regs, the predicate product must have been marketed in the US before Feb. 15, 2007. However, Njoy (Weiss) was one of the earliest importers of ecigs from China, along with Ruyan. But Ruyan was not being officially marketed in the US in 2007.

Per Oliver's post from May 6, 2014, "Bill Bartowski, former president of Ruyan America, confirmed at SFATA's conference yesterday that the earliest product on the US market was May 2007. There are no SE predicates."

We've been discussing this whole predicate nonsense ad nauseam for two years. Have at it (courtesy of Tom Baker :D):

The Predicate Product of 2006 for FDA: Meet the Ruyan V8 , Early Innovator and Marketer of E-Ciig Vaping

I was just guessing based on the patent date.

i haz a really sad.
 
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The Ocelot

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I don't want to sound dramatic, but the thought has crossed my mind. I have so much other crap going on in my life that just getting a pack of Salems looks inviting. Ecigs are much healthier, but I don't have any family left, so it's not really an issue.
 

Katya

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Yes, they do have pre-filled sealed clearos ( in 15 mg/ml only). Already done toxicity testing on the flavors and everything !They have definitely been hedging their bets. Has anyone heard of or read a statement from Njoy in the last 20 days ?

launch_product_pages26.png

Brilliant idea, FDA! Disposable plastic tanks! Yay! Let's add another Everest of plastic refuse to our overfilled landfills. You didn't like cigarette butts littering our parks and beaches and streets? Just wait...

How environmentally conscious. What were they thinking?

God I hate those people. I really hate them. :evil:
 

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