Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Lessifer]

Nah, I'm paying attention though I think we all need some shuteye.
Here:
View attachment 560985

See where you say you "seem to have wasted quite a bit of time expecting fair treatment from the FDA"? Did I misread that? If you never expected fair treatment then why did you waste your time expecting fair treatment? It's all good.
I stopped expecting fair, ethical, honest treatment from the feds or anybody else in gub'min years ago.
But I understand both expecting it
and wanting to think you never did when you don't get what you expect or hope for.
It's very frustrating..but you haven't wasted any time. You've grown

Regards,
Hazy

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I said "WE" have wasted quite a bit of time. That would be the collective we, as in the organized consumer and industry advocacy groups. "I" started a petition a year ago with the intent of going above the FDA to circumvent the deeming. No, it hasn't been successful, because I'm a nobody and we'd need to be in direct talks with at least one congressman for this, but the intent is there. Instead, we spent a few years trying to "educate" the FDA, because we seemed to think that if they just understood what vaping meant, they'd take a lighter touch. Notice that's the collective we again.

I'll let you in on a secret. The FDA knows what vaping is, they know the potential, and they know how destructive these regulations are. They don't care. They may not have even had a choice to take a lighter touch.

 

[crxess]

You Violated Their Point Of View

We're now an official Third World Banana Republic Dictatorship

Awesome................always wanted to be a Leader .......Not

*Note: I should have posted those Great Old Videos in a Thread f their own for Newer Member to view. FDA/Deeming Definitely SS/DD

 

[Kent C]

I'd like to see what Reuters based their article on, I guess I'll look at lunch.
Surely there's a press release somewhere.

White House OMB scrapped FDA plan to ban flavors

 

[Bronze]

Ok. When this came out I sent the FDA an email. I wasn't exactly gentle. I'd forgotten all about it by now. Their answer has just arrived:
"Thank you for contacting the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)....

You may be interested to know that the FDA Center for Tobacco Products is responsible for carrying out the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, which Congress passed in 2009. This law—commonly called the Tobacco Control Act—gives us broad authority to regulate the manufacturing, distribution, and marketing of tobacco products. The FDA’s mandate is to protect Americans from tobacco-related disease and death. Ultimately, we hope that regulating all tobacco products will have a positive impact on public health. That is the motivation for finalizing the rule.


We appreciate every comment that we receive and hope that you find this information useful. Thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts with us."

So, it's "tobacco products". Same thing here. You take something, call it a "tobacco product" and that's it.

In other words, pass the buck and blame the congress. Ok, no problem.

For the record, in 2009 the House was led by Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats and the Senate was led by Harry Reid and the Democrats. Furthermore, in 2009 the senate had a filibuster-proof majority (60 votes) so there was no way the GOP could do anything to stop Democrat legislation.

So, while the FDA is passing the buck let's just make sure who they passed the buck to.

 

[zoiDman]

... The FDA’s mandate is to protect Americans from tobacco-related disease and death. Ultimately, we hope that regulating all tobacco products will have a positive impact on public health. That is the motivation for finalizing the rule.

...

Why must they Lie?

Because if this Truly was their Mandate, they would be Embracing e-Cigarette use as Harm Reduction with Open Arms.

 

[wiredlove]

I have also posted and it seems to have been removed. I have posted a challenge to explain as I know for Fact I have not Violated Posting policy. I have been on Yahoo for over a Decade.

You'll likely get the same reply I did... nada. What did you post, out of curiosity? I'm wondering what trigger words they're censoring on.

 

[skoony]

"As scientific evidence mounted in the 1980s, tobacco companies claimed contributory negligence as the adverse health effects were previously unknown or lacked substantial credibility. Health authorities sided with these claims up until 1998, from which they reversed their position. The Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement, originally between the four largest US tobacco companies and the Attorneys General of 46 states, restricted certain types of tobacco advertisement and required payments for health compensation; which later amounted to the largest civil settlement in United States history."

@Ocelot just quoting you for reference.
Prior to the lat 80's early 90's even though there was significant ANTZ rhetoric
directed against BT it wasn't until these master settlements came on line that
the myth of the evil,money grubbing,deceiving,lying and murdering Tobacco
Manufacturers started taking shape. It loathes me to say you can thank my
home state of Minnesota for leading the way.
Minnesota Litigation and Settlement | Public Health Law Center

The legislature changed the law and it made it impossible for BT to nothing but
capitulate to the agreement. Most Minnesotans abhorred the way BT was treated
and railroaded. We knew even though most of us believed smoking was bad, no
one believed it was as bad as it was being made out to be. We realized that this allowed
government to do anything it wanted and damn the constitution. Soon 2 other states
followed our lead and then the 46 state agreement. People know a good thing when
they see one. Free money for as long as anyone could see. Of course some was set
aside for certain expenditures but,even most of these have been worked around.
Thus the advent of the anti/smoking.orgs. To justify their existence their junk
research has blamed smoking for virtually everything. Their never ending cry
to save the chillin' has permeated every bit of legislation since then and is still
used today because it works.

Today I am hard pressed to find anyone under the age of 30 that doesn't
think BT is a bunch of murderous bums. This attitude has spread to include
any corporate entity regardless of industry. 30 years ago we wanted to keep
the chillin' safe,the water and air clean. What we wound up with is bureaucratic
monsters hell bent on keeping us bubbled wrapped from cradle to grave.
The Nanny State. You will do as your told because we said so. Why?
Because that's why. It's for our own good. Why? Because they said so that's
why,aren't you listening?


Today we have 3 choices.
1. Be the ones writing the rules.(The bureaucracy)
2. Be the ones suggesting more and more new rules.(the Non/Profits)
3. Be the ones who by buying influence get the rules made to benefit
you.(BT,BP,BM,and your local tax collector)
This is how it works at it's basic level. Don't hate it. Strive to understand
it. The work pays well if it's your cup of tea. Nothing wrong with making
a good living. All we need do is keep telling the truth. Sometimes I feel
we have been dealt a fatal blow. After I read the deeming regs I was stunned
at the way everything was so neatly wrapped up. Now everyday people like Zeller
and Glantz proffer yet another illogical,unfounded or,plain untrue pronunciation
for the reasoning behind this insanity. If the FDA is smart they would send these
two clowns on a extended all expenses paid vacation out of the country.(Rarotonga
has an airport I hear) They cannot afford either of these 2 to get in front of a Judge.

Regards
Mike

 

[LoriP1702]

White House OMB scrapped FDA plan to ban flavors

Got it. Thanks. ...but really...
...this just sucks.
Yeah, it had dawned on me too that flavors in "closed" devices are still just as useless.

Once again, I just keep looking for a shred of good news where there is none.

 

[wiredlove]

@Ocelot just quoting you for reference.
Prior to the lat 80's early 90's even though there was significant ANTZ rhetoric
directed against BT it wasn't until these master settlements came on line that
the myth of the evil,money grubbing,deceiving,lying and murdering Tobacco
Manufacturers started taking shape. It loathes me to say you can thank my
home state of Minnesota for leading the way.
Minnesota Litigation and Settlement | Public Health Law Center

The legislature changed the law and it made it impossible for BT to nothing but
capitulate to the agreement. Most Minnesotans abhorred the way BT was treated
and railroaded. We knew even though most of us believed smoking was bad, no
one believed it was as bad as it was being made out to be. We realized that this allowed
government to do anything it wanted and damn the constitution. Soon 2 other states
followed our lead and then the 46 state agreement. People know a good thing when
they see one. Free money for as long as anyone could see. Of course some was set
aside for certain expenditures but,even most of these have been worked around.
Thus the advent of the anti/smoking.orgs. To justify their existence their junk
research has blamed smoking for virtually everything. Their never ending cry
to save the chillin' has permeated every bit of legislation since then and is still
used today because it works.

Today I am hard pressed to find anyone under the age of 30 that doesn't
think BT is a bunch of murderous bums. This attitude has spread to include
any corporate entity regardless of industry. 30 years ago we wanted to keep
the chillin' safe,the water and air clean. What we wound up with is bureaucratic
monsters hell bent on keeping us bubbled wrapped from cradle to grave.
The Nanny State. You will do as your told because we said so. Why?
Because that's why. It's for our own good. Why? Because they said so that's
why,aren't you listening?


Today we have 3 choices.
1. Be the ones writing the rules.(The bureaucracy)
2. Be the ones suggesting more and more new rules.(the Non/Profits)
3. Be the ones who by buying influence get the rules made to benefit
you.(BT,BP,BM,and your local tax collector)
This is how it works at it's basic level. Don't hate it. Strive to understand
it. The work pays well if it's your cup of tea. Nothing wrong with making
a good living. All we need do is keep telling the truth. Sometimes I feel
we have been dealt a fatal blow. After I read the deeming regs I was stunned
at the way everything was so neatly wrapped up. Now everyday people like Zeller
and Glantz proffer yet another illogical,unfounded or,plain untrue pronunciation
for the reasoning behind this insanity. If the FDA is smart they would send these
two clowns on a extended all expenses paid vacation out of the country.(Rarotonga
has an airport I hear) They cannot afford either of these 2 to get in front of a Judge.

Regards
Mike

Rarotonga seems too nice. I wish we were further along on manned missions to mars.

 

[VNeil]

...I'll let you in on a secret. The FDA knows what vaping is, they know the potential, and they know how destructive these regulations are. They don't care. They may not have even had a choice to take a lighter touch.

Ah but they DO know and they DO CARE, greatly. And they did have a choice...

They care that vaping really works, despite their Orwellian protestations to the contrary. They know that cigalikes are a just a stepping stone to open system vaping, at least at the eGo/clearomizer level. They know that the future, left unfettered, is ever more open systems vaping. They know that their tobacco tax revenue is in serious jeopardy because vaping just works. Most importantly they know and care that it is a threat to the tax stream because open system vaping would be difficult to control. Nor does it benefit their fellow racketeers (BP and BT). They care more than enough to want to destroy the industry because they do fully understand the big picture.

No one held a gun to their head demanding the deeming. After failing to kill the industry by turning it over to BP (by declaring ecigs a drug delivery system) they had a choice of deeming it under the similarly industry killing tobacco deeming or sending the matter to congress to enact a proper vaping bill. But that might take years to hammer out, and a bill would have most likely been more favorable and fair to vaping.

They had a choice but the other choice would not have furthered their objective. Deeming is the be all end all solution, every bit as effective, in the long run, as the original plan to hand it over to BP.

 

[YoursTruli]

#smokefreeradio "Facts vs Myths"

 

[Lessifer]

Ah but they DO know and they DO CARE, greatly. And they did have a choice...

They care that vaping really works, despite their Orwellian protestations to the contrary. They know that cigalikes are a just a stepping stone to open system vaping, at least at the eGo/clearomizer level. They know that the future, left unfettered, is ever more open systems vaping. They know that their tobacco tax revenue is in serious jeopardy because vaping just works. Most importantly they know and care that it is a threat to the tax stream because open system vaping would be difficult to control. Nor does it benefit their fellow racketeers (BP and BT). They care more than enough to want to destroy the industry because they do fully understand the big picture.

No one held a gun to their head demanding the deeming. After failing to kill the industry by turning it over to BP (by declaring ecigs a drug delivery system) they had a choice of deeming it under the similarly industry killing tobacco deeming or sending the matter to congress to enact a proper vaping bill. But that might take years to hammer out, and a bill would have most likely been more favorable and fair to vaping.

They had a choice but the other choice would not have furthered their objective. Deeming is the be all end all solution, every bit as effective, in the long run, as the original plan to hand it over to BP.

I agree with most of that, and it might even all be true. However, experts keep pointing out that when the pharma avenue failed they were told by Judge Leon to pursue the tobacco route. I personally think that was more of a suggestion, but they seem to have taken it as a directive. Well, if you go the tobacco route, there are already tobacco rules in place. Much of that regulation is set in the congressional statute, and the FDA does not have the power to change that, at least that's their story and they're sticking to it.

It's a moot point now.

 

[Lessifer]

#smokefreeradio "Facts vs Myths"

Can you summarize key points? I don't have two hours to listen right now.

 

[crxess]

You'll likely get the same reply I did... nada. What did you post, out of curiosity? I'm wondering what trigger words they're censoring on.

Unfortunately, I thought to Copy to late........after hitting post. Nothing showed. I Clicked Show my recent post and the first 2 lines appeared, so I didn't bother. Went back and cannot even get those to come up

 

[VNeil]

I agree with most of that, and it might even all be true. However, experts keep pointing out that when the pharma avenue failed they were told by Judge Leon to pursue the tobacco route. I personally think that was more of a suggestion, but they seem to have taken it as a directive. Well, if you go the tobacco route, there are already tobacco rules in place. Much of that regulation is set in the congressional statute, and the FDA does not have the power to change that, at least that's their story and they're sticking to it.

It's a moot point now.

I don't think a judge can tell a regulatory agency to regulate a previously unregulated product, or how to regulate it. You may want to follow the money trail and politics of these "experts" you are relying on...

It was a suggestion, really. A little free legal advice.

 

[Lessifer]

I don't think a judge can tell a regulatory agency to regulate a previously unregulated product, or how to regulate it. You may want to follow the money trail and politics of these "experts" you are relying on...

It was a suggestion, really. A little free legal advice.

The experts are our experts. I was told that there were only ever two options, drug, or tobacco. Now everyone seems to be calling for a vapor specific framework. I'm just glad we at least seem to be getting on the same page.

 

[YoursTruli]

It is a good listen at the beginning
‎Dimitris has a mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore moment and goes off on Nick (GrimmGreen) about his comments questioning the VTA, their validity, giving misinformation in his vlog, which has kicked off quite the dramafight/smear campaign within the community... He gives the real facts on VTA and their members, speaks more on the factual points of the Cole-Bishop amendment, the implications/impact and addresses other mis-info stuff

 

[VNeil]

The experts are our experts. I was told that there were only ever two options, drug, or tobacco. Now everyone seems to be calling for a vapor specific framework. I'm just glad we at least seem to be getting on the same page.

The $64 million question to ask them: why did the FDA have to do anything, assuming they were unhappy with the deeming alternative?????

I'd like to hear the answer.

 

[zoiDman]

I agree with most of that, and it might even all be true. However, experts keep pointing out that when the pharma avenue failed they were told by Judge Leon to pursue the tobacco route. I personally think that was more of a suggestion, but they seem to have taken it as a directive. Well, if you go the tobacco route, there are already tobacco rules in place. Much of that regulation is set in the congressional statute, and the FDA does not have the power to change that, at least that's their story and they're sticking to it.

It's a moot point now.

Judge Leon did Not tell the FDA to Pursue anything.

Only that, in His Opinion, the FDA DID have the Legal Authority to Regulate e-Cigarettes/e-Liquids if they were "Deemed" as a Tobacco Product.

 

[The Ocelot]

Has this been discussed? I'm not caught up here...
White House scrapped FDA plan to restrict flavored e-cigarettes

I'm also at work and can't research any of it...

I came across the same article, but from a difference source. White House Pulled FDA Restrictions on E-Cigarette Flavors

I'm only on page 408, so I'm hoping someone has more info --- I'm reading on.