Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,618
1
84,742
So-Cal
Am I the only one around here who thinks it's wrong for government to restrict someone from stating an objectively true and provable fact about a product -- that this is indeed an abridgment of free speech?

Why should that be a Problem?

If it is Objectively True and can be shown as a Fact, why should a Regulator Agency want to Restrict it?

I see stuff like this Every Time I go to the Store.

spreads-with-0gs-trans-fat-and-no-cholesterol.jpg


39007-full.jpg
 

Kent C

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 12, 2009
26,547
60,051
NW Ohio US
I think it was more a reference to not being able to advertise your liquid as being "diketone free" even when you have lab tests to prove it, because that would be an implication that your "tobacco product" carries less risk than another tobacco product. In order to do that, you would need to apply for MRTP status.

That wasn't the apple and oranges content, but you're probably right on the other - as to how MRTP status will be considered by the FDA. However.....:

“Modified risk tobacco product” means any tobacco product that is sold or distributed for use to reduce harm or the risk of tobacco-related disease associated with commercially marketed tobacco products. Section 911(b)(1) of the FD&C Act. Sold or distributed for use to reduce harm or the risk of tobacco-related disease associated with commercially marketed tobacco products means a tobacco product ...

1. ...that represents in its label, labeling, or advertising, either implicitly or explicitly, that: i. the tobacco product presents a lower risk of tobacco-related disease or is less harmful than one or more other commercially marketed tobacco products;

... since B.O. isn't a tobacco-related disease, any mention of diacetyl-free shouldn't apply.

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/UCM297751.pdf pg 6
 

Vandal

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Oct 21, 2009
799
3,357
NE Ohio
Why should that be a Problem?

If it is Objectively True and can be shown as a Fact, why should a Regulator Agency want to Restrict it?

I see stuff like this Every Time I go to the Store.

spreads-with-0gs-trans-fat-and-no-cholesterol.jpg


39007-full.jpg
And they are allowed to say 0g tans fat even if it has trans fat. They only have to have less than 0.5g trans-fat per serving to make the claim. IMO, the FDA is allowing misleading labeling here. How many people will understand what it really means? The claim also may imply the product is healthy, and often it is not (most grocery store food products have the likes of GMO soy or canola oil, both of which are far from safe).

Labels of "natural" are even worse. Ingredients labeled as "natural" are anything but, without exception from what I've seen.

Sorry, I get as stirred up over the disgraceful allowances given the food industry by the FDA as I do what they are trying to do to vaping. Neither is in the interest of public health.
 

Slots

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 20, 2012
2,793
15,747
Eastern Wa.
Am I the only one around here who thinks it's wrong for government to restrict someone from stating an objectively true and provable fact about a product -- that this is indeed an abridgment of free speech?
Not by a long shot sweetie

If it is Objectively True and can be shown as a Fact, why should a Regulator Agency want to Restrict it?
Hey, they don't want the Tobacco companies to look bad, be compared too, or just plain be shot down for the deadly product they make.
The tobacco products have to state "hazardous to your health" ... you don't think the guys that write the checks are going to let you point out how much healthier vaping is, ... do you ??
 

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,618
1
84,742
So-Cal
And they are allowed to say 0g tans fat even if it has trans fat. They only have to have less than 0.5g trans-fat per serving to make the claim. IMO, the FDA is allowing misleading labeling here. How many people will understand what it really means? The claim also may imply the product is healthy, and often it is not (most grocery store food products have the likes of GMO soy or canola oil, both of which are far from safe).

Labels of "natural" are even worse. Ingredients labeled as "natural" are anything but, without exception from what I've seen.

Sorry, I get as stirred up over the disgraceful allowances given the food industry by the FDA as I do what they are trying to do to vaping. Neither is in the interest of public health.

I Believe the thing about <0.5g per serving might be why there is an Asterisk after the words "Per Serving".
 
Last edited:

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,618
1
84,742
So-Cal
Hey, they don't want the Tobacco companies to look bad, be compared too, or just plain be shot down for the deadly product they make.

The tobacco products have to state "hazardous to your health" ... you don't think the guys that write the checks are going to let you point out how much healthier vaping is, ... do you ??

I'm really not sure what the Court(s) are going to Rule is or Isn't Allowable?
 

bigdancehawk

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 27, 2010
1,462
5,477
Kansas City, Missouri
You said "inciting people to riot or murder pubic officials," and I said like "dead cops now". Which is the apple and which is the orange? Esp. after Dallas where that chant and others were involved in the protests?

As far as advertising, (ie. diketone free, when it's not) there's other laws that handle that type of fraud - which is basically a form of stealing, not a violation of the First Amendment. But I do see problems with the 1st Amendment wrt to where the 'deeming' would censor vendors where there isn't fraud involved. Where studies have shown that vaping can lead to smoking cessation - in fact, more than NRT's where smoking cessation is invoked in ads by manufacturers.
Private citizens can't "violate" the 1st Amendment. Only government can.
Apples: Shouting "fire" in a crowded theater when there is no fire and there's an imminent threat of panic. Oranges: Shouting "dead cops now" when there is no imminent threat of violence. Speech becomes a 1st Amendment issue when government restricts it and/or when it interferes with another constitutionally protected right, e.g., freedom of the press. Thus, it has been held that when the judicial system (a branch of government) imposes common law defamation principles in such a way as to unduly restrict freedom of the press, it is a 1st Amendment violation on the part of the judiciary.

This back-and-forth has become unproductive. We share the opinion that the FDA's restrictions on vaping product advertising are unreasonable and violate of the 1st Amendment. We don't need to quibble about fire in theaters or "dead cops now." People are here to talk about vaping regulations.
 

bigdancehawk

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 27, 2010
1,462
5,477
Kansas City, Missouri
A bit more complicated than that. People in rural areas wanted the same prices as those in Chicago and Philadelphia. Same as airlines today, you'll likely get better prices out of Chicago than Boise, Idaho.

Thankfully the ICC is now gone (although similar actions now span a few other agencies). It was also one of the first to abuse 'eminent domain'.
A bit more complicated than that.:2cool:
 

Lessifer

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 5, 2013
8,309
28,986
Sacramento, California
That wasn't the apple and oranges content, but you're probably right on the other - as to how MRTP status will be considered by the FDA. However.....:

“Modified risk tobacco product” means any tobacco product that is sold or distributed for use to reduce harm or the risk of tobacco-related disease associated with commercially marketed tobacco products. Section 911(b)(1) of the FD&C Act. Sold or distributed for use to reduce harm or the risk of tobacco-related disease associated with commercially marketed tobacco products means a tobacco product ...

1. ...that represents in its label, labeling, or advertising, either implicitly or explicitly, that: i. the tobacco product presents a lower risk of tobacco-related disease or is less harmful than one or more other commercially marketed tobacco products;

... since B.O. isn't a tobacco-related disease, any mention of diacetyl-free shouldn't apply.

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/UCM297751.pdf pg 6
You sure about that? This is the agency that is trying to remove the word "mild" from an established brand name, because it implies their product may have lower health risks. Or if your objection is specifically to diacetyl free, how about smoke free?
 

Sugar_and_Spice

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 11, 2010
13,663
35,225
between here and there
Nicosurge.com
per their website
*Calculations:
Cigarettes (20-pack) = 24mg nicotine per pack
Nicosurge = 240 puffs x 0.2mg/puff = 48mg nicotine per canister.
So if you vape 10 ml@ 6mg a day = 60mg per day.
Or 10ml a day @3mg = 30mg
Very expensive @ $25 a canister.
 

Lessifer

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 5, 2013
8,309
28,986
Sacramento, California
.. since B.O. isn't a tobacco-related disease, any mention of diacetyl-free shouldn't apply.

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/UCM297751.pdf pg 6
Here's a "fun" thought. E-liquid is a newly deemed tobacco product. There are studies verifying the presence of diacetyl and other diketones in e-liquid. There is a suggested link between diacetyl and B.O., so, is B.O. now a tobacco related disease, even though there is no evidence of anyone developing B.O. related to tobacco use?
 

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,618
1
84,742
So-Cal
FTFY and no.

They have to issue PMTA's on some e-Liquids Les. Can't Tax something that Can't be Sold.

And I don't think the Feds, or the States, would be All that Thrilled to watch such a Tax Vehicle skid off the side of the Road.
 

Lessifer

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 5, 2013
8,309
28,986
Sacramento, California
They have to issue PMTA's on some e-Liquids Les. Can't Tax something that Can't be Sold.

And I don't think the Feds, or the States, would be All that Thrilled to watch such a Tax Vehicle skid off the side of the Road.
Well, when I say e-liquid, I'm referring to bottled liquid meant to be used in open system vapor devices.
 

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,618
1
84,742
So-Cal
Well, when I say e-liquid, I'm referring to bottled liquid meant to be used in open system vapor devices.

Oh... Yeah, I'll go with that.

Take #2:

I think the Entire concept of how Diketones should or should be advertised/Labeled/etc is Funny.

Does Anyone really think that an e-Liquid, packaged in a Closed System - Non-Refillable - Chip Enabled Cartridge with a Proprietary Non-510 Connection, that contains detectable levels ( >5ppm ) of Diketones will receive PMTA approval?
 

Users who are viewing this thread