Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[seminolewind]

Perhaps we differ in our definition of "evidence". Political op-ed doesn't rise to the level of evidence imo.

What i was curious about was your specific statement that "Big tobacco (Altria) has actually aided the FDA in how to write up these regulations ". I know that Altria supported the TCA in 2009, but that is not the same thing that you stated. As far as i'm aware, Altria has actually opposed the deeming regs that you state they helped write.

i just finished reading that article. Every one should read it because if anyone is still under the illusion that there is no corruption in government this article will open their eyes.

This part made me want to scream: "
In order to understand why state governments have been so keen on passing increasingly strict restrictions on the vapor industry, you’ll have to take a trip down memory lane to November 1998, the year that the Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement was enacted.

This agreement was sold as being a a major blow against Big tobacco, but in reality did nothing more than make the tobacco industry even more powerful than anyone could have ever imagined. The agreement included yearly payments in perpetuity from Big Tobacco to 46 different states, in part based upon how much money the companies made from sales. This led to states securitizing the payments in the form of bonds sold to Wall Street, allowing them to spend the Big Tobacco money BEFORE they actually receive it.

The unexpected rise in vaping has directly hurt the profits of the tobacco industry, and thus is indirectly depriving state governments of a revenue stream that they have become dependent upon.

Basically, the less cigarettes that Big Tobacco sells, the less money that the state governments receive. For more information on the TMSA, be sure to check out the Truth About Vaping videoon this very topic. It’ll open your eyes to the true extent of the corruption in the state governments."

It's tragic that our elected officials who are already rich, only worry about putting more money in their pockets instead of supporting means to help citizens, especially when it could be a matter of life or death as in the vaping battle.

I agree. Trump was not even 6 months into the campaign when he started yelling "foul" about the corruption in government. Not to start a conversation about Trump, but we are all seeing government corruption first hand on tv every night, and seeing who plays deaf dumb and blind to the corruption. And it continues and no one does a darn thing about it but some of us people and we are not heard either. (The subject in this paragraph is still about government corruption)

Why does the testing not fall to the FDA to prove that vaping devices and liquid are not safe? I think they're biting themselves in the ..... People revolt when the laws get too oppressive or unfair. Revolt is how the public forces the Government to be heard. The vaping industry has put 10 years of innovation into these products and will not just toss it away. There will be a black market. So the FDA themselves will lose all control over safety issues and control of anything vaping, and not be collecting any tobacco taxes on the sale of vaping equipment.

 

[Lessifer]

I think there is a Big Difference between a Readily Accessible Tool like a Screwdriver or Hex Key that can be Reasonably Expected to be found in an Average Household. Verses some type of Machinery that a Averages Individual would Not Be Expected to Own.

I don't know you Keep Asking me about Retailers providing things so Customer can Perform a Service in their Shops? Because that is a Dead End Road in my Opinion. And I could very well see the Courts Siding with the FDA on this.

I would Focus on does a Retailer have the Ability to show a Customer the Safe and Proper Operation of the Product they buy from a Retailer without the Retailer becoming a FDA Classified Manufacture of a Tobacco Product?

And How does a Retailer Showing a Customer how to Safely and Properly Use the e-Cigarette that they purchased from a Retailer Adversely Effect Public Health more so than when a Retailer does not?

First, I think we all know that this portion at least has nothing to do with public health, and everything to do with control.

This next bit is just my opinion/interpretation of how things stand. A shop can demonstrate anything, using the shop's gear/liquid, items that will not be handed over to a customer. Once that shop performs an action using the customer's gear/liquid, or items intended to be sold to the customer, then they have crossed the imaginary line that the FDA has put in place.

So, a shop can show you how to change a coil, as long as they don't change the coil for you.

 

[seminolewind]

Do the FDA regulations cover sales and use? Is it illegal to use a vaping product? Or just buy or make one? Will the airport be confiscating vaping equipment out of suitcases?

 

[Lessifer]

Do the FDA regulations cover sales and use? Is it illegal to use a vaping product? Or just buy or make one? Will the airport be confiscating vaping equipment out of suitcases?

FDA regulates manufacturing and distribution, not possession.

 

[zoiDman]

First, I think we all know that this portion at least has nothing to do with public health, and everything to do with control.

This next bit is just my opinion/interpretation of how things stand. A shop can demonstrate anything, using the shop's gear/liquid, items that will not be handed over to a customer. Once that shop performs an action using the customer's gear/liquid, or items intended to be sold to the customer, then they have crossed the imaginary line that the FDA has put in place.

So, a shop can show you how to change a coil, as long as they don't change the coil for you.

This whole Thing is F Stupid. And you are Right. It has Nothing to do with Public Health.

 

[seminolewind]

Great. No raids on house.

 

[seminolewind]

How about selling the empty box and the device and liquid for free?

 

[oplholik]

Just saw a couple post's in RTS's forum, things are not going well, thanks to the deeming regs. Thanks FDA.

 

[Lessifer]

How about selling the empty box and the device and liquid for free?

I'm sure people will find ways to work around regulations, for awhile. The important part is to work towards changing the regulations. At this point the key fights are the lawsuits, and getting congressional support of HR2058 and/or the Cole-Bishop amendment to the agricultural appropriations bill. I've heard mention of some groups pursuing a more expansive legislative strategy, perhaps a bill to introduce separate vaping regulations, but I haven't heard anything specific about that and I believe that would be a ways off. Right now we need to keep enough of the industry alive so that there is something left if/when we can get things changed.

 

[retired1]

ETA : What's with all the automatic hyperlinks on ECF these days. I almost expected my quotes to link to Vaping.com I did nothing to hyperlink my comments to my avatar !

Actually, you did. You edited the quote and a portion of the hidden BB Code, resulting in a mess.

I fixed it.

 

[Eskie]

I'm sure people will find ways to work around regulations, for awhile. The important part is to work towards changing the regulations. At this point the key fights are the lawsuits, and getting congressional support of HR2058 and/or the Cole-Bishop amendment to the agricultural appropriations bill. I've heard mention of some groups pursuing a more expansive legislative strategy, perhaps a bill to introduce separate vaping regulations, but I haven't heard anything specific about that and I believe that would be a ways off. Right now we need to keep enough of the industry alive so that there is something left if/when we can get things changed.

That's one of my biggest fears right now. Even if legislation eventually makes its way through, how many businesses will already be lost, and how many of the remainder be profitable long enough for changes to actually be affected. It will be a sorta pyrrhic victory if legislation finally get passed and no one is left in business.

Except for BT, of course.

 

[Mazinny]

Actually, you did. You edited the quote and a portion of the hidden BB Code, resulting in a mess.

I fixed it.

I originally bolded the parts that were hyperlinked. Then i went back to un-bold thinking this would solve the problem. Parts of it was fixed, but not all. Either way it was a mess, thanks for fixing.

 

[retired1]

I originally bolded the parts that were hyperlinked. Then i went back to un-bold thinking this would solve the problem. Parts of it was fixed, but not all. Either way it was a mess, thanks for fixing.

Look for this icon in your editing toolbar:

That will take you out of WYSIWYG mode and allow you to see the underlying bbcode in the post.

 

[skoony]

I don't know you Keep Asking me about Retailers providing things so Customer can Perform a Service in their Shops? Because that is a Dead End Road in my Opinion. And I could very well see the Courts Siding with the FDA on this.

I would Focus on does a Retailer have the Ability to show a Customer the Safe and Proper Operation of the Product they buy from a Retailer without the Retailer becoming a FDA Classified Manufacture of a Tobacco Product?

I think @Lessifer is implying that the FDA would receive relief from the courts on
what is done in the B&M's.

As to the safe use and operation of the product, another dead end.
I can go out tomorrow and buy any manner of things including a pack
of cigarette and bic lighter and not expect any kind of lecture from
a store employee whether wanted or not. Any and all warnings would
be included in the product and or directions for use. Not only do the new
regulations treat us as smokers.(tobacco users) They are also treating
us as adults. What a novel concept.

regards
mike

 

[seminolewind]

I'm sure people will find ways to work around regulations, for awhile. The important part is to work towards changing the regulations. At this point the key fights are the lawsuits, and getting congressional support of HR2058 and/or the Cole-Bishop amendment to the agricultural appropriations bill. I've heard mention of some groups pursuing a more expansive legislative strategy, perhaps a bill to introduce separate vaping regulations, but I haven't heard anything specific about that and I believe that would be a ways off. Right now we need to keep enough of the industry alive so that there is something left if/when we can get things changed.

I know. I hope we can make some changes. I'm hoping that the powers that be will see that there are some serious problems with the FDA's new regulations. Or untruths. We do have a chance of winning even if it's in very small steps.

I do think the burden is on them to test vaping . The problem with what the FDA wants is none of our data or theirs goes further back than 10 years, or less with increased # of users. Is that enough?

 

[zoiDman]

I think @Lessifer is implying that the FDA would receive relief from the courts on
what is done in the B&M's.

As to the safe use and operation of the product, another dead end.
I can go out tomorrow and buy any manner of things including a pack
of cigarette and bic lighter and not expect any kind of lecture from
a store employee whether wanted or not. Any and all warnings would
be included in the product and or directions for use. Not only do the new
regulations treat us as smokers.(tobacco users) They are also treating
us as adults. What a novel concept.

regards
mike

The Key Word here Mike is "Show".

 

[seminolewind]

I think @Lessifer is implying that the FDA would receive relief from the courts on
what is done in the B&M's.

As to the safe use and operation of the product, another dead end.
I can go out tomorrow and buy any manner of things including a pack
of cigarette and bic lighter and not expect any kind of lecture from
a store employee whether wanted or not. Any and all warnings would
be included in the product and or directions for use. Not only do the new
regulations treat us as smokers.(tobacco users) They are also treating
us as adults. What a novel concept.

regards
mike

Are we being treated as well as tobacco smokers? Or worse? Adult criminals or outside the law?

 

[seminolewind]

Hopefully those B&M places can find some method of selling on line. Ebay sellers have always gotten away with a lot not using certain words and using particular words that make it harder to distinguish what they are selling.

You can buy tobacco stuffing machines on Amazon. All different types.
You can find many vaping products on Amazon.
There is a supplier who sells very low cost liquid made in China that we all know and love in big bottles. H00$ier.

 

[Wow1420]

Until that legal definition is decided by a court, or put into statute by Congress, don't we kind of have to go by what the FDA says it is?

Here's what they say:
"If you make, modify, mix, manufacture, fabricate, assemble, process, label, repack, relabel, or import any "tobacco product," then you are considered a tobacco product "manufacturer.""

Here is their definition of tobacco product(bold emphasis mine):
Tobacco product - As stated in section 201(rr) of the FD&C Act in relevant part, a tobacco product: (1) Means any product made or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption, including any component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product (except for raw materials other than tobacco used in manufacturing a component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product); and (2) Does not mean an article that is a drug defined under section 201(g)(1) of the FD&C Act, a device defined under section 201(h) of the FD&C Act, or a combination product described in section 503(g) of the FD&C Act (parts 1100, 1140, 1143 ).

ASSEMBLE -
So if I piece together tank parts for my own use, I'm a manufacturer? Even if I never sell anything to anyone?

 

[skoony]

The Key Word here Mike is "Show".

Show what?
It's any thing the FDA says it is until the courts(highly unlikely) or,Congress
(even more so unlikely) substantially changes something. The Cole amendment
just puts everything under direct jurisdiction and control of the FDA. This means
in the real world via the Cole amendment the FDA could arbitrarily ban what
they want to protect public health at the population level with the chillin' to boot.
The best we can hope for with out a complete congressional over view and re-
write of the regulations is parity with the rules and regulations concerning cigarettes.

We are tobacco product users now. The courts and congress will be limited to
comparing vaping to rules and regulations equal or above to long existing rules,
standards and,previous judicial rulings concerning tobacco products. Most
notably cigarettes. They can not do anything else as there is no case history.

Regards
Mike