Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Mazinny]

So, assuming this is a proper reading of the tea leaves, claims and sampling regs are likely to stand, hardly terrible aspects. A finding that the PMTAs in their current form are overly burdensome would be helpful to the industry. Two actions in Congress right now, H.R. 2058 and the Cole Bishop amendment are likely to address the predicate date issue if passed. Pretty much the same mixed bag we've been stuck with.

Now we continue to wait.

@Mazinny thanks for the Cliffs version. Saved us a lot of time, and appreciate the effort.

Yup, let's not forget that there is an almost 100% chance of an appeal regardless of the outcome. This will take a while.

On Cole/Bishop, Dimitris was extremely critical of the various advocacy groups for not allocating enough time or money on lobbying.

 

[zoiDman]

Yup, let's not forget that there is an almost 100% chance of an appeal regardless of the outcome. This will take a while.

On Cole/Bishop, Dimitris was extremely critical of the various advocacy groups for not allocating enough time or money on lobbying.

The Good News, at least, would be that Anything the Judge ruled in our favor would be in affect during the Appeals Process.

 

[Eskie]

Yup, let's not forget that there is an almost 100% chance of an appeal regardless of the outcome. This will take a while.

On Cole/Bishop, Dimitris was extremely critical of the various advocacy groups for not allocating enough time or money on lobbying.

I would agree. Legislation is a far stronger solution less likely to be manipulated if clear terms for FDA actions are enacted.

The Good News, at least, would be that Anything the Judge ruled in our favor would be in affect during the Appeals Process.

Not necessarily. The appeals court could easily grant a stay while it is under consideration, and should the predicate date remain unchanged, everything would still be stalled while the FDA reconsidered the PMTA process (if ordered to) even without a stay.

Getting congress to do its job and pass proper legislation to set the limits on the FDA's regulation of e cigs is still the best long term solution to how they should be treated. And with a change in the predicate date, a lot of the pressure on manufacturers, vendors, and even retailers will be lifted.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Not necessarily. The appeals court could easily grant a stay while it is under consideration, ...

That might be Procedurally Possible.

But it would take an Extremely Powerful argument to consider it. And the Counter to this argument would be if it was so Compelling, why did the Lower Court rule as it did?

 

[seminolewind]

Yahoo News had a picture of an ape smoking a cigarette (and sortof how cute) so I really left a heart felt comment about how awful it was to let that poor ape smoke and die of lung cancer when he could live and vape banana flavored juice and it won't cause seizures or depression risk like Chantix.

 

[r055co]

Getting congress to do its job and pass proper legislation to set the limits on the FDA's regulation of e cigs is still the best long term solution to how they should be treated. And with a change in the predicate date, a lot of the pressure on manufacturers, vendors, and even retailers will be lifted.

If that's our best hope we're seriously screwed.

Not a day goes by that I'm not glad I stockpiled.

Edit: grammar

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[jpasint]

PM cigarette shipping volume down by 5.5% in 3rd quarter of this year.
That would be our fault.

 

[oplholik]

I'm sure at least some of it could be.

 

[r055co]

PM cigarette shipping volume down by 5.5% in 3rd quarter of this year.
That would be our fault.

I bet it is, I'm not on a buying frenzy anymore. I'm still picking up gear but I'm only getting gear that is really interesting, basically a fraction of what I was.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[zoiDman]

PM cigarette shipping volume down by 5.5% in 3rd quarter of this year.
That would be our fault.

It's Funny in a Way.

Because when we see a Percentage drop in Cigarette Sales, we see an Improvement in Public Health.

But when Many (Most) in Government(s) see such a drop, they see a Reduction in Tax Revenues. And they Don't like that.

 

[sofarsogood]

It's Funny in a Way.

Because when we see a Percentage drop in Cigarette Sales, we see an Improvement in Public Health.

But when Many (Most) in Government(s) see such a drop, they see a Reduction in Tax Revenues. And they Don't like that.

Governments get a fixed amount per pack with the excise tax. The tobacco companies can play with pricing or cut costs or invest in other things. I've noticed public statements by tobacco companies saying they want to convert people from smoking to vaping because it's healthier. How does government dismiss that? The judge is right that the FDA rules are intended to eliminate the product, not regulate it. If she grants a motion to delay the start of the rules and if it's appealed before the trial ends it's an appeal by "leave", not an appeal by right. On an appeal by leave the appeals court should decide not to hear the appeal before the end of the trial unless there is a compelling reason. If things go that way it would buy us some years.

 

[zoiDman]

Governments get a fixed amount per pack with the excise tax. The tobacco companies can play with pricing or cut costs or invest in other things. I've noticed public statements by tobacco companies saying they want to convert people from smoking to vaping because it's healthier. How does government dismiss that? The judge is right that the FDA rules are intended to eliminate the product, not regulate it. If she grants a motion to delay the start of the rules and if it's appealed before the trial ends it's an appeal by "leave", not an appeal by right. On an appeal by leave the appeals court should decide not to hear the appeal before the end of the trial unless there is a compelling reason. If things go that way it would buy us some years.

It's just hard to say what a Judge may/may not do in a Action such as this.

---

BTW - Here is an Off-Topic bit of News.

BAT offers to buy U.S. tobacco firm Reynolds in $47 billion deal

 

[seminolewind]

Why would anyone want to buy a company manufacturing something that will end up losing money in sales? Now that the Brits can vape, what sense does this make?

 

[zoiDman]

Why would anyone want to buy a company manufacturing something that will end up losing money in sales? Now that the Brits can vape, what sense does this make?

How much Money did Reynolds lose last year?

 

[Tee_Jay]

Why would anyone want to buy a company manufacturing something that will end up losing money in sales? Now that the Brits can vape, what sense does this make?

To corner or gain leverage in the market for nicotine production for vaping maybe? The Canadian subsidiary of BAT, Imperial Tobacco just announced this week (hit the news today) that they are starting production of Vaping products, and they are lobbying the Canadian Government to influence the vaping products regulations that are being drafted right now.

'Why aren't we allowed to sell a less harmful product?' Imperial Tobacco wants into e-cigarette market

 

[DC2]

The Canadian subsidiary of BAT, Imperial Tobacco just announced this week (hit the news today) that they are starting production of Vaping products, and they are lobbying the Canadian Government to influence the vaping products regulations that are being drafted right now.

Imperial Tobacco owns Blu though...
E-Cigarettes: Imperial Tobacco - TobaccoTactics

 

[Tee_Jay]

Imperial Tobacco owns Blu though...
E-Cigarettes: Imperial Tobacco - TobaccoTactics

Oh - i didn't know that.. From the article it didn't seem like they were established in the vaping industy yet, but i guess it makes sense that they would have to be if they're lobbying already. I not sure if i like 'big tobacco' having the governments ear while the regs are being drafted. I mean, it could be a good thing but their priorities aren't necessarily the same as vapers' or the smaller companies.. The last thing we want are laws that regulate in a way that only huge companies can comply. That would basically put big tobacco at the top of the industry. Would they then start screwing with ejuice to make it harmful in exchange for making it more addictive like they do with cigarettes?

 

[seminolewind]

When it comes to money, not even lives matter. I personally will never buy any item put out by a Tobacco company. Ever. It's the principle of it.

 

[Rossum]

To corner or gain leverage in the market for nicotine production for vaping maybe? The Canadian subsidiary of BAT, Imperial Tobacco just announced this week (hit the news today) that they are starting production of Vaping products, and they are lobbying the Canadian Government to influence the vaping products regulations that are being drafted right now.

I do not think that Imperial is a subsidiary of BAT. I was under the impression that the two are competitors, with BAT being the smaller of the two.

 

[HBcorpse]

ATTENTION -SOCAL- VAPERS...

A BILLION LIVES premiere in Los Angeles next Friday (10/28/2016)

A Billion Lives - Laemmle.com

I've got tickets.

Get yours!

Given the traffic problems with LA, it's better that you plan on an early showing, like 2:20pm

Maybe we get lunch before hand?

Anyone interested in going with me, PM me so we can set up a meet time!