Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

Opinionated

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 19, 2015
11,168
59,365
56
My Mountain
Are we talking about UL 8139 yet?

UL 8139 Recognized as Industry Standard for Safer Electronic Cigarettes in North America | UL

It's only for integrated battery mods, not for external mods.

@Eskie (if I remember right) @Baditude and others wagered the government (FDA etc) was heading toward a closed system only path (to include batteries) for our e-cigarettes.

How long do we think it will take to bring this UL standard for e-cigarettes under the banner of deeming - or do we think a UL certification/approval will be optional?
 

Myk

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jan 1, 2009
4,889
10,658
IL, USA
Lets not turn this into a socialism thread. Most times, prescription costs are just "eaten" by the pharma companies. And anyone who thinks any new drug that is novel is NOT going to take advantage of high prices, is nuts. You get yourself an "orphan" drug, (the only drug approved to treat a condition) well, goldmine. Goes off patent-- NEVER. The drug companies want to make money, but regulations and pricing ALL comes from the government, the FDA etc.

Also, given the amount of research that goes into making a drug, I quite often feel that the "patent" system is protective of new drugs being made. That is kind of how it works. If you created something patentable, I'm fairly certain that you would take that patent, and make as MUCH money as possible doing so. As would any other sane person.

We can't complain about "clones" and simultaneously go on about how all meds should cost 4 cents. Nope. Nope.

I don't think Big Pharma or the FDA are "evil". They are using a system developed, and maintained ultimately by government regulation and approval and etc. I take issue with some of it, but developing a new drug is certainly EXPENSIVE.

When my dad's company got the patent (yes, that was patentable) on gene therapy, they were bought out IMMEDIATELY by Merck. Because yes, any "viable" gene therapy therapy had to pay Merck a patent fee.

It is what it is. The best one can do is know the rules, the guidelines and proceed accordingly.

And, once the FDA "completes" vaping, that will be the status of things.

You can get GREAT care with awful insurance. You have to know what you are doing, how to do it, and etc. It costs you, primarily TIME. When I was in public mental health, I had to learn the new system (like, NO, you will not schedule me 6 weeks out after my doc gives me a MONTHS prescription and refuses refills, and then I have to spend 5 days tracking down my case manager, in my case, I called her "Bambi" because of her deer in the headlight eyes, and she SUCKED. I very, very quickly (after ONE TIME) learned to snarl at the secretary until she actually gave me an appointment that came at least ONE day before my meds. It wasn't terrible care-- for me. For a paranoid schizophrenic, it probably was ONGOING horrid care. They couldn't figure out that "patient compliance" would rise if YOU know, people weren't actually running out of their meds, etc.

That's just one really unfortunate example. I mean-- the doc won't give your refills because everyone's "non compliant" and then the secretaries would screw over patients by giving them appointments AFTER their meds ran out, and not everyone was as competent or PUSHY as me, I hated going there, for many reasons, but the MOST because I was always seeing really vulnerable mentally ill folks getting messed with.

That's the part that is hard, at least for MI. Although I'd imagine many seniors don't know their benefits and options. Etc.

Anna

I wasn't trying to go anti-socialism. I think socialized medicine is the only way it can be, has been and always will be no matter what illusion is given. Even outside of "socialized medicine" the Haves probably aren't sick, they pay more use less. Those who are sicker probably have not, use more, pay less. Normal free market can't work with medicine. It doesn't matter if you hide it in insurance, government aid or high prices for some freebees for others.
If you deny medicine to the Have Nots you'll never get enough guinea pigs to advance medicine to be able to cure the Haves when they're in need.
What I find funny is medicine has decided it is unethical to pay people well to be the test subjects they need. Uhh-huh, unethical, yeah that's the ticket.

A lot of that research is paid for by tax money (NIH or universities) or donations to disease orgs and handed over freely. That covers the unprofitable blind poking in the dark research. The orphan drugs by companies is often abuse of the law, they use an already existing drug on a rare disease and orphan status extends their patent (not forever, 7 years from approval for the rare disease use). Usually it's NIH research that actually opens the doors to new treatments and those open doors are handed over to anyone who wants the chance to use them to develop a new drug they can charge a lot for and hold the rights to for. There are also financial incentives to researching to get orphan drugs so again we are paying.

I don't think anyone is talking about drugs costing 4¢. The problem is pricing a cancer drug at $30,000/yr projected to profit billions, but when that drug works better than expected quadrupling the price for no other reason than they can. True story although the original cost may be wrong. It was a drug getting approved for Crohn's that I read about.

The difference is the US system never stands up to say no, even though we have a law that says if you price gouge and received any publicly funded research you can have your patent yanked. That law has NEVER been enforced. (That is the same corporate ownership of our government that has them going after vaping to protect tobacco.)
 
Last edited:

Myk

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jan 1, 2009
4,889
10,658
IL, USA
Are we talking about UL 8139 yet?

UL 8139 Recognized as Industry Standard for Safer Electronic Cigarettes in North America | UL

It's only for integrated battery mods, not for external mods.

@Eskie (if I remember right) @Baditude and others wagered the government (FDA etc) was heading toward a closed system only path (to include batteries) for our e-cigarettes.

How long do we think it will take to bring this UL standard for e-cigarettes under the banner of deeming - or do we think a UL certification/approval will be optional?

With the requirement to test any possible combination that's all that can be.
The FDA's requirements bear no resemblance to what vaping has been since the early days.
All they need is GMP for mods, tanks and wire. Liquids could be GMP with approved ingredients.
But they can't get their heads out of the thought that it's a medical product, nor do they want to.
 

Opinionated

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 19, 2015
11,168
59,365
56
My Mountain
Are there mandatory UL standards?

No.. it's never been legally mandated.

I'm just wondering if they did a standardization of e- cigarettes for future use in regulatory capacity.

Did I explain that well? Or poorly? Lol..
 

untar

Vaping Master
Feb 7, 2018
3,406
17,583
Germany
Not an expert on US politics but I doubt an (R) government would want to carry the trophy of being the first in making such a standard mandatory for any product. Then again...
giphy.gif
 
  • Like
Reactions: Opinionated

Opinionated

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 19, 2015
11,168
59,365
56
My Mountain
Not an expert on US politics but I doubt an (R) government would want to carry the trophy of being the first in making such a standard mandatory for any product. Then again...
giphy.gif

The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) requires that electronics meet certain standards in order to be marketed and sold in the United States... at the moment there are NO safety standards for the electronic aspect of electronic cigarettes because they are so new, and it's been up in the air as to how it should be regulated..

As MYK said it's possible the government doesn't care to ever regulate the electronic aspect of e-cigarettes or develop safety standards, but at the same time I cannot imagine the government simply ignoring that aspect..

I anticipate that someday they will develop a safety standard for e-cigarettes as a result. Just wondering if this might be a first step down that road.
 

Rossum

Eleutheromaniac
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 14, 2013
16,081
105,232
SE PA
The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) requires that electronics meet certain standards in order to be marketed and sold in the United States...
FCC standards are there to try to prevent one device from interfering with another. They're not safety standards.
 

untar

Vaping Master
Feb 7, 2018
3,406
17,583
Germany
I'm not opposed to a standard that would make charging in a mod less "interesting" and an obligatory over-discharge protection wouldn't be too bad either. Those should be things manufacturers should be doing anyways and some indeed already do so (some sadly don't and it's not just certain Chinese companies, remember ginger vaper boxer 300W LiPo?).

The problem I'd have with a mandatory standard is it would kill mech mods instantly and therefore needlessly restrict informed consumer choice. An option would be to give some sort of tax breaks or other advantages to companies that adhere to a certain standard for their electrical devices, doubt that is where it's going though.
 

Opinionated

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 19, 2015
11,168
59,365
56
My Mountain
FCC standards are there to try to prevent one device from interfering with another. They're not safety standards.

Hmm.. I always thought there were electronic safety standards in the U.S for the protection of consumers..

I guess I was wrong. It never dawned on me that there would be homes filled with electronics and zero standards of safety in the United States..
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: stols001

Myk

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jan 1, 2009
4,889
10,658
IL, USA
If there is hope for ecigs it lies with the Brits, or proles, whoever. They may end up to ecigs what Sweden is to Snus the way things are going.

The problem I'd have with a mandatory standard is it would kill mech mods instantly and therefore needlessly restrict informed consumer choice.

Thing is mechs shouldn't have existed and really shouldn't exist any more by Li-ion industry standards. The Screwdriver served its purpose getting us to where we are but even it should've had some protection circuitry or been set up to only use protected batteries.

But the way the FDA has it mechs are more OK than the most modern safety conscious mod not even thought of yet.
 

HBcorpse

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 23, 2013
4,378
14,477
I anticipate that someday they will develop a safety standard for e-cigarettes as a result. Just wondering if this might be a first step down that road.

And on that day, Provape’s technology, and efforts, will be greatly missed.

I hope (dangerously), that there might be a triumphant return of the Provape brand/tech/safety priority.

It would be a mighty fine thing to buy a NEW Provari...

:wishful thinking:
 

Eskie

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
May 6, 2016
16,087
77,744
NY
Tough to say if the FDA will simply accept a UL listing for the power side of things as sufficient to meet standards from a regulatory perspective. If they do it will mean the end of mechs in the retail market in the US, but I think we all expected that when the deeming regs first came out. Still, not sure how importing a metal tube with a button on it will be managed by customs.
 

Rossum

Eleutheromaniac
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 14, 2013
16,081
105,232
SE PA
Tough to say if the FDA will simply accept a UL listing for the power side of things as sufficient to meet standards from a regulatory perspective. If they do it will mean the end of mechs in the retail market in the US, but I think we all expected that when the deeming regs first came out. Still, not sure how importing a metal tube with a button on it will be managed by customs.
I get the impression that mechs are no longer a particularly important factor on the retail market.

Back when I started vaping, if a person wanted more than 15-20 watts, a mech was the only way to get it, and a decent regulated mod that didn't produce the annoying rattlesnake effect cost well over $100. Thus mechs were very popular. But now that one can buy a 200 watt regulated mod for ~$50, mechs have lost much of their appeal.

From a philosophical standpoint, I'm very much opposed to limiting people's choices, but looking at this pragmatically, mechs are no longer necessary keeping vaping viable.
 

Bronze

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 19, 2012
40,240
187,946
I get the impression that mechs are no longer a particularly important factor on the retail market.

Back when I started vaping, if a person wanted more than 15-20 watts, a mech was the only way to get it, and a decent regulated mod that didn't produce the annoying rattlesnake effect cost well over $100. Thus mechs were very popular. But now that one can buy a 200 watt regulated mod for ~$50, mechs have lost much of their appeal.

From a philosophical standpoint, I'm very much opposed to limiting people's choices, but looking at this pragmatically, mechs are no longer necessary keeping vaping viable.
Mechs have two attractive characteristics. One, they are smaller because no room is required for a chipset. Two, they are simple and relatively indestructible compared to regulated mods. Beyond that, I see only disadvantages.
 

Rossum

Eleutheromaniac
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 14, 2013
16,081
105,232
SE PA
Mechs have two attractive characteristics. One, they are smaller because no room is required for a chipset. Two, they are simple and relatively indestructible compared to regulated mods.
Yep. I use nothing but mechs for exactly those reasons. Mine aren't tubes; they're squonkers, but that's beside the point. The "indestructible" part goes a long way toward making a person FDA-proof. :)
 

Bronze

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 19, 2012
40,240
187,946
Yep. I use nothing but mechs for exactly those reasons. Mine aren't tubes; they're squonkers, but that's beside the point. The "indestructible" part goes a long way toward making a person FDA-proof. :)
Yep, mechs have their place to be sure. I don't use mine but I still keep my Nemesis because I may need it some day.
 

stols001

Moved On
ECF Veteran
May 30, 2017
29,338
108,119
I have to disagree with you when you type you don't think Big Pharma is evil.... :2c:

I think a more accurate statement would be, not ALL evil. There's kind of a wide streak of evil in many things. But, few things are entirely evil except for Hillary Clinton.

Anna
 

MacTechVpr

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 24, 2013
5,725
14,411
Hollywood (Beach), FL
Mechs have two attractive characteristics. One, they are smaller because no room is required for a chipset. Two, they are simple and relatively indestructible compared to regulated mods. Beyond that, I see only disadvantages.

Yep, mechs have too many notes.

Good luck. :)

p.s. For those that might miss this, ref. Amadeus.
 
Last edited:

coldgin96

Resting In Peace
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 22, 2012
3,202
19,383
North of Detroit, way south of Heaven
I think a more accurate statement would be, not ALL evil. There's kind of a wide streak of evil in many things. But, few things are entirely evil except for Hillary Clinton.

Anna
Ok, sure, there are exceptions to every rule. Sure, not EVERYONE working in Big Pharma is evil. I'm sure Hell has decent people burning in it too.

Big Pharma as a whole is evil, it just is.

The drug I take that is slowing down my disease and keeping me alive for now (as long as it works, if it does) cost $9,000 a month for 3 pills (one with every meal) a day. That's $100 a pill. That's just ONE small example. There are life saving drugs that cost A LOT more...

You will never convince me that's warranted, not when it's $2,000 a year in Canada. Sorry...

I'm a Capitalist, but I'm a Capitalist with morals and I'll see the rich in Hell (most of them, again, exceptions to every rule).
 

Users who are viewing this thread