Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[crxess]

I think Salem and I look at some of the same FB pages!

Make Sure it is posted on ECF Well in advance!

Nothing short of Death will keep me away ......er....

 

[Big Me]

Hopefully that would change if the majority has its way and waves bye-bye to being in the EU, particularly as a block of well respected doctors have come out in favor of vaping. However, everyone I knew voted against going IN to the (then) "Common Market" but we went in all the same, so I guess it's wait and see…..And then the EU came out with its own deeming yesterday or the day before as well, yes? In fact it was so close to the FDA deeming, I was thinking "Conspiracy!!"

What happened Thursday was that the European Courts of Justice gave their final ruling on the case brought by Totally Wicked against Article 20 of the TPD that pertains to e-cigarettes.

It also ruled on the two separate cases brought by Philip Morris International and British American tobacco that alleged that the TPD was without a valid legal basis, that elements were disproportionate and did not comply with the "principle of subsidiarity", and that too much power was delegated to the European Commission.

It ruled in the EU's favour in all cases. (Quelle surprise!)

 

[nicnik]

Disclaimer; I'm not suggesting that anybody should purchase nicotine in this strength. Just using it as an example.

And not just because it's illegal. It's extremely dangerous.

 

[Netop]

I haven't posted on here for awhile, life and .... happened and vaping kind of fell off my radar, but I've tried it and loved it, just haven't taken the plunge and bought a device yet. I'm still smoking, and up to two packs a day. But I'm tired of it. I heard the FDA .... yesterday and wanted to post again it kind of snapped me to attention. I really want to stop smoking and take up vaping but now kind of afraid that the FDA is going to make things difficult like they always do ....ing something up. So should I take the plunge and buy a device and start to vape, or keep smoking like what is the timeline? I wouldn't want to buy a device and then not be able to find liquid for it. I was planning on getting a pen but now not sure what to do.

I would recommend not smoking cigarettes. If you think that gaping would help you do that, here is an outline:

1. Get reliable gear. If you have been thinking about a pen, don't worry about lots of power. There are many inexpensive options that can recharge via USB. There are also really good deals on Provaris right now if you wanted the most dependable and simple removable battery setup. Whichever you choose, make sure you get two different atomizers and two mods. I would say this to anyone, anyday who is thinking about taking the plunge.
2. Get a few different flavors of ejuice. Unless you already know what you like, it's hardcto tell what will float your boat.
3. Vape. Ask questions when you need. Share your stories. Whatever. Vaping and vapers are not going away next week, next month or next year. If you are still vaping s year from now and these regs look like they are going to get tighter, then figure out if you will stockpile, wean yourself off, or explore the new black market that will arise. (After getting free of yhe cigs, I would hope you wouldn't go back to that... I know I wouldn't having finally kicked.)

The worst case scenarios is that you save a couple of bucks to be smoke free for a couple of years. Sounds like a no brainer to me. When you have questions about what kind if setup might be best, remember that there are a lot of smart and helpful people here.

 

[vaporgalinfla]

You too, VG. Funny how the worst of times really seem to bring people together

It is funny, but honestly, I've missed you! I'll send you a message within the next few days.

 

[salemgold]

Make Sure it is posted on ECF Well in advance!

Nothing short of Death will keep me away ......er....

Here you go. This will make it easier to keep up with. Seems like they will be making it very easy for people that want to go to get there.

Vapers March on Washington DC!

 

[bigdancehawk]

Unsubscribing from this thread, it's just turning into partisan party bashing.

People may hate a particular party for whatever reason, but I'm pretty sure BOTH political parties know how to cash a check from Philip Morris.

Ha! It didn't take very much bashing to drive you away.

 

[zoiDman]

Cigarettes, yes you need a tobacco lisc.

Pipes and gear? In Cali its the same business lisc as a gift shop. Nothing more.

BTW - When you get some Free Time, you might want to read this...

Bill Text - SBX2-5 Electronic cigarettes.

 

[Bad Ninja]

BTW - When you get some Free Time, you might want to read this...

Bill Text - SBX2-5 Electronic cigarettes.

Ask me how I know. (Read my sig first).

 

[zoiDman]

Ask me how I know. (Read my sig first).

I have signatures Turned Off.

Just Posted that Link because it appears you are Not very up to speed on Current Events in California.

 

[bigdancehawk]

Reposting because I left out a big chunk of history...

Big Pharma said stop those damn electronic cigarettes. They enlisted their minions (ALA, CTFK, AHA, ACS, ALF, etc.) to pester the FDA and start a movement to demonize electronic cigarettes. After a few years Big Government started noticing they were losing money. Everyone sat down to figure out what they were gonna do. Big Tobacco was invited to the table, and told that the plan was to destroy the effective products, and hand the crumbs that were left over to them.

The result is what you see now.
Big Tobacco will offer closed-system tamper-proof useless cigalikes.

But originally, Big Tobacco was never even at the table. The FDA was supposed to shut down our silly little upstart venture (vaping) by declaring us to be pharmaceutical (drug) device users. But then in stepped Judge Leon who shot the FDA down with his Judicial Machine Gun. Everything we see happening now is nothing more than a Plan B which was developed after the initial plan got smacked down.

The End

Yes, and the FDA was mightily PO'd at Judge Leon's ruling and at NJoy. They believe that NJoy should have knuckled under. How dare they oppose the federal government!

Having been involved in more than my fair share of litigation, nobody likes getting slapped down in federal court, least of all highly placed gubmint bureaucrats. They take it very personally and they imagine all kinds of nefarious reasons why they lost. It never occurs to them that they were simply wrong. They have been plotting their comeback for about 7 years and this time they are even more determined to prevail, by whatever stratagem it takes. Almost 500 pages of new regulations didn't mysteriously appear overnight. This is not about you or me, or small business, or public health. They couldn't possibly care less. This is about revenge and winning.

 

[Bad Ninja]

I have signatures Turned Off.

Just Posted that Link because it appears you are Not very up to speed on Current Events in California.

Maybe you misread the exchange.
I was referring to your quote about tobacco shops.
Only tobacco requires a special lisc.
Sales of tobacco pipes or "gear" only require regular retail lisc. like any biz.

 

[Tommy-Chi]

My short list. I have plenty of gear/nic but I'm stocking up for next 5+ years. I refuse ot be caught out and in need:

- ORDER MORE NUDE NICOTINE ARMOR V2. Have a gallon, and looking for more.
- ORDER 4+ TWISTED MESSES V2, ORDER THE REPLACEMENT PARTS KITS. Have one and want redundancy.
- ORDER 4+ SIGELEI 213. Have one and want redundancy.
- ORDER SS316L WIRE BY THE LB. Have one and want redundancy.
- ORDER 10+ PRE FABBED COIL SETS - UD FERRIS WHEEL IN KANTHAL A1. Have one and want redundancy.
- ORDER 2ND COILMASTER 521, 2 MATs, 2 COIL REMOVAL TOOLS(YELLOW), 2 VAPE CARRYING POUCHES
- ORDER 5+ ASPIRE CLEITO AND AT LEAST 10 BOXES SS 316L ATOMIZERS
- ORDER Scott's Mods "The Vet," a dual 18650/26650 parallel mechanical box mod. Have one and want redundancy.

 

[sparkky1]

If a manufacturer plans to continue making and selling their product, will they have to start the application process in order to continue business during the 2 year period? -Or- Do they have until the end of the 2 years to start the application process? Does anyone have a clearer grasp on this than I do?

First of all there not done with all the final details, FDA mentioned time lines for certain products.
My advice would be to remain calm and at least wait till you see the FINAL reg's and wait again after all the class action law suits.
Me, I would put your idea into prototype / sample phase as soon as your ready ...........

 

[Jazzman]

The burden of proof is virtually impossible at this stage for new products. Age restrictions is most likely the core focus of day 90. I think we're all good with that. Online verification is old tech and face to face is even older.

I wish the FDA luck if they think they have any chance at effectively enforcing the new product part of day 90+. It would serve no real purpose and require way too much money and man power that in the end would prove to be a fruitless effort. What's the point if it will ALL be eradicated in 2 years. That's the real end goal.

Vendors should fully comply with age and advertising though. That will certainly be policed.

The point Bob, although it is not obvious, is market and industry contraction. This is a brilliant strategy, in an evil scientist kind of way, and will work over the period of 2 years. In fact, it will work with almost no effort from the FDA. It is important to understand the FDA strategy to have any chance to counter it.

 

[zoiDman]

Maybe you misread the exchange.
I was referring to your quote about tobacco shops.
Only tobacco requires a special lisc.
Sales of tobacco pipes or "gear" only require regular retail lisc. like any biz.

So what about "Tobacco Products"?

And what happens when e-Cigarettes and e-Liquids are Deemed a Tobacco Product on the Federal Level? Because that is what the Original post you quoted was Referencing.

 

[kbeam418]

Yes, and the FDA was mightily PO'd at Judge Leon's ruling and at NJoy. They believe that NJoy should have knuckled under. How dare they oppose the federal government!

Having been involved in more than my fair share of litigation, nobody likes getting slapped down in federal court, least of all highly placed gubmint bureaucrats. They take it very personally and they imagine all kinds of nefarious reasons why they lost. It never occurs to them that they were simply wrong. They have been plotting their comeback for about 7 years and this time they are even more determined to prevail, by whatever stratagem it takes. Almost 500 pages of new regulations didn't mysteriously appear overnight. This is not about you or me, or small business, or public health. They couldn't possibly care less. This is about revenge and winning.

Yes, and the FDA was mightily PO'd at Judge Leon's ruling and at NJoy. They believe that NJoy should have knuckled under. How dare they oppose the federal government!

Having been involved in more than my fair share of litigation, nobody likes getting slapped down in federal court, least of all highly placed gubmint bureaucrats. They take it very personally and they imagine all kinds of nefarious reasons why they lost. It never occurs to them that they were simply wrong. They have been plotting their comeback for about 7 years and this time they are even more determined to prevail, by whatever stratagem it takes. Almost 500 pages of new regulations didn't mysteriously appear overnight. This is not about you or me, or small business, or public health. They couldn't possibly care less. This is about revenge and winning.

Yep big vapor will be the big players in court. I just don't see this holding up in court. Plus congress stopped the FDA the last time so who knows.

 

[Tache]

The posts are piling up so fast, I just can't keep up with them.

Could someone please tell me if Oliver (Smokey Joe) has announced what the "big event" is? I don't care where in the world it is, I will find a way to be there. Just need to know so I can let my employer know when I won't be available to help them save taxpayers millions of dollars. (Pardon that, but its true - being Canadian, it didn't sound very polite - hence, the apology). I'm just so angry about what the FDA has done (because of course, Health Canada will simply point south of the border and say, "Well …. we have to follow suit, eh?").

 

[bigdancehawk]

So, how about a class action lawsuit for injunction of FDA deeming regulations and damages related to FDA causing harm to vapers by preventing access to a product that is used to maintain the health and well being of former smokers.

I see that the feds and FDA by extension, have what is called Sovereign Immunity, but however, the US federal government (agencies) can be sued under tort law as outlined in this wiki paragraph

"In the United States, the federal government has sovereign immunity and may not be sued unless it has waived its immunity or consented to suit. The United States has waived sovereign immunity to a limited extent, mainly through the Federal Tort Claims Act, which waives the immunity if a tortious act of a federal employee causes damage, and theTucker Act, which waives the immunity over claims arising out of contracts to which the federal government is a party.[31] The United States as a sovereign is immune from suit unless it unequivocally consents to being sued.[32] The United States Supreme Court in Price v. United States observed: "It is an axiom of our jurisprudence. The government is not liable to suit unless it consents thereto, and its liability in suit cannot be extended beyond the plain language of the statute authorizing it."[33]"

Maybe some cases exist that provide a precedent for a new lawsuit. Start a gofundme, hire some really good lawyers...tap, tap, tap, "Is there a Lawyer in the House?"

Sorry, but I'm afraid this is a dead end. Consumers will not have standing to challenge these regs.

I'm waiting for Joe….gimme the happy news, I need some happy news…….

And does anyone know how this FDA thing is going to succeed when they lost the lawsuit re nicotine shipments into the USA last time round?
I'm pretty sure that nicotine was around before 2007, as were a lot of e-juices ….from China. So China's vaping industry with its sometime dubious ingredients will be A-OK but American companies that care about quality, provide jobs and pay taxes will be outta business. Yeah FDA bozos, that makes a lotta sense. I've seen a bucket o'cesspit sludge with more brainpower than they have - and the sludge is undoubtedly purer.

Now this is something that I don't believe has yet been mentioned. In Feb. of 2007 was there a nicotine base product that consumers could buy?

 

[The Ocelot]

I'm posting this again, in case anyone missed it:

For more on how and why tobacco companies support e-cig regulation, see this paper, forthcoming in the Yale Journal on Regulation. I found it in a Washington Post article*.

Bootleggers, Baptists, and E-Cigarettes by Bruce Yandle, Roger E. Meiners, Jonathan H. Adler, Andrew P. Morriss :: SSRN

*Why the FDA’s new e-cigarette regulations are a gift to Big Tobacco (and could actually harm public health)