Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Kent C]

Sorry, I lost my post...

Let's try again. Why is CASAA pushing the original Cole bill, when Cole himself asks for support for the subsequent Cole/Bishop bill (House Appropriations) bill?

@JustJulie @Vocalek Anyone? Do we need a new CTA? ASAP?

And, has anyone seen Bill Godshall?

I checked Julie and Bill's profiles and they haven't posted recently. As far as the HR2058 - just VPA has said that about Cole 'preferring the Appropriations Bill over it' but didn't find any direct statement of that - just what I posted on Cole's site. I'm leaning toward the Approp. Bill and have contacted my Rep and the Senator's on the Appropriations committee. I would hope others would do this as well. The Senate is a harder sell but the R's have the majority there. Overturning a veto though is likely not possible.

 

[rwoodin]

Sorry, but I'm afraid this is a dead end. Consumers will not have standing to challenge these regs.

Now this is something that I don't believe has yet been mentioned. In Feb. of 2007 was there a nicotine base product that consumers could buy?

No problem. It was just an idea I threw out there. If enough people keep thinking and throwing, sooner or later we're going to hit that nasty old FDA right between the eyes with a big old dirty vapeball. <POW!>

 

[paulw2014]

I think the House Republicans are our best bet at this stage.

 

[bigdancehawk]

Alcohol & Tobacco | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

ATF's Alcohol and Tobacco Enforcement Programs purpose is to target, identify, and dismantle criminal enterprises with ties to violent crime, that traffic illicit liquor or contraband tobacco in interstate commerce; seize and deny their access to assets and funds; and prevent their encroachment into the legitimate alcohol or tobacco industry.

I'm sure "ties to violent crime" is open to interpretation.

That begs the question. The question is what's "criminal" and who is charged with the duty to enforce various criminal statutes. The U.S.C. (United States Code) spells out what's criminal conduct and specifies which federal law enforcement agencies are responsible for enforcing those various provisions. If selling unapproved e-cigarette products is to be considered criminal activity, then it must be spelled out in a federal statute.

 

[nicnik]

Sorry, but I'm afraid this is a dead end. Consumers will not have standing to challenge these regs.

Now this is something that I don't believe has yet been mentioned. In Feb. of 2007 was there a nicotine base product that consumers could buy?

I just did a google search with custom date range, 1/1/01 thru 2/15/07, and it appears that there were some, but I might be misunderstanding what the products are. Maybe somebody with more of an understanding of it, could do the search and see what they think.

 

[nicnik]

I'm leaning toward the Approp. Bill

Much more potential, for reasons that some have pointed out (the need to pass a budget).

 

[sparkky1]

Sorry, but I'm afraid this is a dead end. Consumers will not have standing to challenge these regs.

Now this is something that I don't believe has yet been mentioned. In Feb. of 2007 was there a nicotine base product that consumers could buy?

I don't think you understand the magnitude of the situation, BT corporations / CASSA will have Johnnie Cochran and the WHOLE slew of the rest of the gang testing their facts to fallacy, the Tobacco Act ?, that's frickin awesome being singed into law from a smoker

 

[nomore stinkies]

I don't even know what to say except we all new that the Deeming were actually the Dooming. The really outdid theirselves. Didn't miss a beat did they? Right down to possible intended use. They chose BT, BP over our lives. I have to cry... I need a safe space, a puppy video and crayons.

 

[bigdancehawk]

I work at a vape shop and we have now posted fliers informing customers of all that has transpired and how they can be heard. I urge everyone that works at one or frequents them to get the word out and get fliers out.

That's commendable, but why did you wait until now?

 

[bigdancehawk]

FDA can suck a big nasty one! They have way too much power! How can they make laws and regulations like this?
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

This sounds very much like things that were written in the Declaration of Independence.

 

[bigdancehawk]

They do indeed!

Raw Milk Raid on Amish Farmer Highlights Stupid FDA Tactics

The FDA is not immune to public pressure, if it's powerful and cohesive. The e-cigarette industry and consumers have, to date, been neither. When the FDA merely hinted that they might prohibit the aging of cheese on wood, there was an instantaneous industry uproar. Cheesemakers, cheese shop owners, and many members of the general public went bonkers, went screaming to the press, blogged incessantly, and were all over the social media. The FDA immediately backed off. It seems that cheese people have shown, until now, more passion and determination than vape people. Of course, to be fair, the cheese people were not up against Big Tobacco Control, a profitable industry in and of itself.

 

[nicnik]

Of course, to be fair, the cheese people were not up against Big Tobacco Control, a profitable industry in and of itself.

Big Tobacco Control, Big Pharma, Big Tobacco and Big Government each could devour Big Cheese in one gulp.

 

[The Ocelot]

I just did a google search with custom date range, 1/1/01 thru 2/15/07, and it appears that there were some, but I might be misunderstanding what the products are. Maybe somebody with more of an understanding of it, could do the search and see what they think.

The FDA has addressed that too. Am I the only one who thinks this sounds dismissive?

"Additionally, FDA has determined that some e-cigarettes and other ENDS were manufactured in 2006 and commercially marketed in the United States in early 2007. In particular, we have identified an ENDS product that may have been on the market on February 15, 2007. This product may possibly be able to serve as a valid predicate for purposes of the SE pathway.

"The burden of demonstrating that a valid predicate exists rests with the manufacturer submitting a SE report. To facilitate the determination that a product is eligible to serve as a valid predicate, any individual who has evidence that an e-cigarette or other ENDS was commercially marketed in the United States on February 15, 2007, may submit a stand-alone grandfather submission to FDA (See final guidance, "Establishing That a Tobacco Product Was Commercially Marketed in the United States as of February 15, 2007" (79 FR 58358, September 29, 2014)). (Based on FDA's experiences to date, and since stand-alone grandfather submissions are purely voluntary, FDA does not anticipate that many manufacturers will make such submissions, but this option is available.)"

"Lol!" says the FDA. "You can give it a try, but the process is very expensive, time consuming and there's only a minute chance you will succeed. How much money do you have?"

I'm sure the ENDS product they have identified is NJOY. They may have the money to make it through the quagmire, but it's still a cigalike.

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/02...eceives-funding-valuing-it-at-1-billion/?_r=0

 

[Kent C]

It seems that cheese people have shown, until now, more passion and determination than vape people.

I think it has to do with 1) how long a product has been around and 2) somewhat connected to #1, how organized the industry is. Vaping is getting organized but in general, the real boom has occurred more recently. Cheese has been around for ages.

As someone mentioned somewhere in this thread :- ) ... cigar orgs will have more power. I didn't read the 'premium cigar' portion of the deeming - but I'm guessing it's still there. The other vote in the Appropriations committee, was to stomp down on premium cigars (the DeLauro amendment - and it got creamed. )

I'm having a hard time coming up with a 'newer product' that got attacked like ecigs, perhaps the 'Raw Milk' fad - but milk has been around a while but Raw Milk, while having an earlier history is a newer product brought back. Some food products - Absinthe (one of my favorite eliquids :- ) Puffer fish, and others where there is no large 'interest group'.

 

[nicnik]

The FDA has addressed that too.

I was referring to nicotine base on the market pre-February 2007.

 

[The Ocelot]

I was referring to nicotine base on the market pre-February 2007.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

 

[Kent C]

I was referring to nicotine base on the market pre-February 2007.

I found one site - that sold a liquid nicotine drink... 2005
Revelle, LLC / inLife

And another 2006 less clear if anything was sold but taking about liquid nicotine.

I was looking for another 'tobacco supply' store than I thought carried freebase nic among other products during my RYO days 2001 up until finding ecigs but failed to find the site. I had ordered menthol and some other stuff from them at one time.

 

[bigdancehawk]

Yep big vapor will be the big players in court. I just don't see this holding up in court. Plus congress stopped the FDA the last time so who knows.

Big vapor is BT. When has congress stopped the FDA? Why isn't the deeming reg going to hold up in court? Do you understand the process and criteria for judicial review of administrative actions?

 

[The Ocelot]

I found one site - that sold a liquid nicotine drink... 2005
Revelle, LLC / inLife

And another 2006 less clear if anything was sold but taking about liquid nicotine.

I was looking for another 'tobacco supply' store than I thought carried freebase nic among other products during my RYO days 2001 up until finding ecigs but failed to find the site. I had ordered menthol and some other stuff from them at one time.

I can't imagine drinking that.

ETA: They sell an e-cig too, but it appears you can't get to the product page without a password.

 

[bigdancehawk]

I just did a google search with custom date range, 1/1/01 thru 2/15/07, and it appears that there were some, but I might be misunderstanding what the products are. Maybe somebody with more of an understanding of it, could do the search and see what they think.

I hope so. It could be a game changer.