Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

StormFinch

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The exemption for premium cigars is also in the Cole/Bishop amendment passed by the Appropriations committee - which according to Cole has a better chance than HR2058 (although I still support that as well if it is still in play). And amendment (DeLauro's) to take out the premium cigar part was defeated in the same committee by 34-17 - so there is good support for the amendment as written.

Kent, what Robin is pointing out is that some of those Reps are perfectly fine supporting cigars, but haven't signed on to HR 2058. If the vapers in their districts would point that out and the fact that vaping is even safer than cigars, that might change. If they're going to support burning vegetable matter, there's no sense in not supporting nicotine vapor.
 

ZeroedIn

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this is bad but take just an average economic juice company like dr crimmys for instance or one of the others. or take a major juice company like g2 for years they have made boatloads of profits maybe even enough to afford the million dollar license. delivery systems regulation is what is gonna be the problem. but they will find ways around that given time. and if given license I see no problem with using fda approved flavorings or vg/pg and would actually prefeer lab standerds and inspection. I think many juice companys will survive and as for the hardware go out and buy some mech mods.

Yeah, its NOT a license. It is an application to keep your product on the market. The money is to pay for labor and lab tests and research to ensure that a product already constituted of items that are GRAS, is still GRAS - and the FDA gives not guarantee that your application will be approved.
 

DC2

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kbeam418

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Kent, what Robin is pointing out is that some of those Reps are perfectly fine supporting cigars, but haven't signed on to HR 2058. If the vapers in their districts would point that out and the fact that vaping is even safer than cigars, that might change. If they're going to support burning vegetable matter, there's no sense in not supporting nicotine vapor.

Because there isn't enough push from us and the manufactures ;)
 
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mudram99

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According to the CDC, 3.7% of Americans used e-cigarettes in 2014. I suspect two years later this percentage is significantly higher. Be that as it may, I see our news cycle the last couple months have been dominated with a bathroom law that affects less than 0.5% of the population. I'd like to think vapers have at least as much clout in fighting for our rights. Perhaps we can learn something here.
I think you might be on to something! I am going to find the first politician i see and pee on his leg! :vapor:
 

ZeroedIn

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Im wondering if Big Tobacco will be removing all their newer brands of Cigarettes off the market that were introduced after 2007 as well?

Just offhand, I dont remember Marlboro Black, Marlboro Edge, or several camel brands as well as a slew of their cigalikes (Mark 10 comes to mind) that are now being sold being available since 2007. Wouldn't those have to go thru a PMTA process too?

They will all make it through the Substantially Equivalent exemption to regulation.
 

nicnik

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Off topic---maybe---- but I just finished watching a TV series on Netflix. It was Continuum. The time travel was pretty far fetched but the corporate congress controlling the US was something I can see happening if we don't find a way to stop it.
Too late, unless you can travel back in time.
 

salemgold

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I posted this in the other thread a few hours ago. Not sure if you guys have heard yet though.

Copied from SFATA at FB


Today, CASAA, SFATA, AEMSA, AVA and NBS have formally announced their coalition to pursue legal and legislative strategies now that the FDA’s final deeming regulations have been released.

The coalition will continue working to determine the correct litigation strategy and legislative actions. We will be informing the vapor industry and community of next steps, deadlines, PR objectives, and grassroots efforts. Organizations interested in participating should contact coalition partners.

Please feel free to contact any of the organizations listed above for more details in the coming days.
 

Bob Chill

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You just ended this entire thread in one fell swoop.
I'm surprised it took so long for someone to drop the microphone.

Logically, it is illogical to try and police millions of little parts when it's exponentially easier to just get rid of the reason people want to buy and assemble the parts to begin with. Zero nic is great for those who vape it but for the the rest of us 95%'ers, we are in it for the nic too.

I have this sinking feeling that the chance of an open system or bottled nic getting approved may be lower than many of us think. There is so much gear on the market already it's crazy. Imagine every mod and accessory in US consumers' hands being tossed into a pile. That's a really big pile. It was legally purchased and grandfathered for personal possession. But if there is nothing to put in it on the shelves then the police work becomes easy. Kinda like guns and ammo. Just get rid of the ammo then the gun is useless except maybe using it as a hammer or something.

Yea, there's a bunch of folks who can DIY their own juice with their stockpile but why bother policing what they use to vape it. It's dumb and the battle is already won. Prepared folks will be safe for years. Most of the prepared folks are on vaping forums having discussions just like this. But we are such a small part of the multi-billion dollar industry.

Urge to kick things...rising...
 
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salemgold

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From SFATA-

The past couple of days have been filled with misinformation and fear."

It has been two years since the FDA started the deeming process and SFATA has been there at every step of the way. Panicking and making rash decisions will not help our industry overcoming these challenges.

Kurt's thoughts here are a good reminder of that.

Kurt Loeblich
May 7 at 2:02am ·
The past couple of days have been filled with misinformation and fear. From claims that nicotine free eliquid does not fall under FDA jurisdiction to news articles speaking of FDA endorsed raids on vape shops in 91 days, it is abundantly clear that people DO NOT understand what these regulations entail.

As many of you are aware, SFATA had a conference call with ~600 members, their legal team, and lobbyist. Since the call ended, I've struggled with the idea as to whether or not I should discuss this phone call with you guys, the members of the Vaping community and my friends and family.

Why? What would cause this inner conflict?

It is now evident to me that we, as an industry, were sorely unprepared. The Sottera decision (NJOY v. FDA) put us in between a rock and a hard place. Now we are seemingly scrambling to find our way out.

That being said, I will keep the conversation (and many of the topics discussed) to myself. It is of my belief that the individuals tasked with the understanding and dissecting of these regulations need more time before they can better direct us with what we need to do in near future and beyond.

I am not, however, recommending that you wait until you are told what to do.

If you are a business owner, it is alone your obligation to understand the regulations as they are written. Hire an attorney. Call the FDA. Read the regulations. Doing ANY or ALL of those things is better than nothing. I personally have read them, and I'm not happy with what I saw, but it is what it is (until litigation or legislation change says otherwise).

If you are a consumer, feel free to get educated with the regulations (see above recommendations). However, do not share random social media posts with interpretations unless they are from a trusted source (as of this point, I wouldn't assert that anyone is an expert on these regulations).
Next, you need to continue to support HR 2058 and The Cole-Bishop Amendment, and simultaneously continue to express your concerns with your elected representatives. Become a member of CASAA if you have not already, and participate in their many calls to action. They alone will be YOUR voice.

Business owners:
Here's the deal. If you make eliquid, you are now a tobacco manufacturer. You will need to complete the PMTA process if you wish to continue manufacturing eliquid. If you manufacture hardware such as mods or atomizers (aka tobacco components) you will need to complete the PMTA process.

If you "manufacture" wicking, batteries, or any type of other vaping apparatus (pre-built coils comes to mind), it is of my personal interpretation that you will need to complete the PMTA process. My interpretation is subject to change once my attorneys complete their analysis and I will update you guys accordingly.

What direct steps do we need to take as an industry?

Realistically speaking, I don't have an answer to that. I have a fairly good idea what manufacturers and business owners will need to do (and the timelines associated with those tasks) but I don't want to make an announcement until further analysis is complete. I firmly believe that no true action should be taken until we have a very firm grasp on the regulations. Once again, I will update accordingly.

One last snippet worth mentioning:

We have three ways to "attack" these regulations in my opinion. A three pronged attack if you will.

1) Legislative - get your elected representatives on our side.
2) Public opinion - we need to support A Billion Lives. This film has the possibility of opening non-vapers eyes to this industry and the attacks we've been fighting for years. If we get the public on our side, it will be much easier to get legislators on our side.
3) Litigation - assuming we, as business owners, have grounds to file a lawsuit, it may also be an option. However, I strongly urge ALL business owners to not file a lawsuit. Premature filing can ruin any chance we have. I currently have my legal team looking into any potential claims we may have and, assuming there is something we can fight for, will keep relevant individuals in the loop. I wouldn't even say we are in the preliminary stages of a lawsuit yet. Once again, we need to understand these regulations inside and out before we take it to the Courts.

I'll do my best to keep you guys up to date with further discussions/information that is provided.

Love you guys. Hang in there. This isn't the end. We've got a long and difficult road ahead of us but I have faith that we can be victorious if we all persevere.
 

buffaloguy

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My years of being in the online marketing world tell me one clear truth. Whomever controls the narrative of the debate, controls the debate. Even the media follows suit. (Money and shameless self promotion helps too.)

You'll find this eminently on display in our current election cycle. Hillary under inditement (nearly) and Donald with no actual plans, at all. They both have controlled the narrative. They both are despised equally by more than half of America, but they are the presumptive nominees.

That's narrative at work. Its all marketing. Nothing more. Nothing less. Smoke and mirrors. America buys it. Go figure. Apathy on full display.

CASAA and other orgs do a lot of work (and should be supported) but they are not leading with a plan, not controlling the narrative, not mastering media. Social media is not enough. You need the press to follow. That is why Sanders was able to compete and raise so much money. He got the press in lock step with social media.

Our orgs like CASAA are all reactionary. Being proactive is not responding to a problem. Its leading with a solution. We knew all this was coming. We knew (generally) what moves would be made. Instead of heading it off at the pass and getting media narrative in lock step, we waited to see what the FDA would do.

The govt distracted us with state and local vaping issues and successfully fractured the front line. They scattered us from the only real target. The FDA and Congress. They, thus far have won the narrative and control it.

We need to stop looking for loopholes and start controlling narrative.

Ive thought long on this and that is my two cents.
 

Katya

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Kent, what Robin is pointing out is that some of those Reps are perfectly fine supporting cigars, but haven't signed on to HR 2058. If the vapers in their districts would point that out and the fact that vaping is even safer than cigars, that might change. If they're going to support burning vegetable matter, there's no sense in not supporting nicotine vapor.

It's kind of telling when you see all those anti-vaping Democrats suddenly supporting the cigar bill... They now want to protect small businesses? :facepalm: Really?

Burning vegetable matter? Well, California lawmakers may soon allow recreational combustion of another herb (which, BTW, unlike nicotine, causes impairment), while at the same time trying to legislate vaping out of existence. But heck, it's not tobacco, so we don't have to protect the children. Still blowing smoke, Sacramento?
 

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