Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

nicnik

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We are are the same page generally except for one thing.
Where are the videos or pictures of cloud chasers (hipsters or not) practicing there behavior
in any public venue. For two years I have pleaded for actual pictures of this happening and
the only response I have received are pictures from obvious vaping events or staged productions
from the YouTube. Along with the 'why would i take a picture" Dah!?
All this from a culture with cell phones,free long distance and built in camera and video
used to document their entire existence to post in social media groups.

I believe the possibility that Big foot exists more than any actual rude vaper ambushed
gramma in the cereal aisle and then proceeded to hose the babies down in the diaper aisle.
I am sure somewhere at sometime someone acted very rudely. Now some one explain to
me why an act of Congress or preemptive regulations could,can or,would prevent such
behavior.
Regards
Mike
This has gotten me pondering why only staged video and photos, and none at all of vapers rudely blowing huge clouds in public. IOW, I see your point. I searched online for any video evidence I could find. Nothing.

So, you know have at least one follower on this issue. I find it doubtful that it's happening much at all.
 

nicnik

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The story is ripe for satire. If we can get the situation to his attention I don't think we would need to encourage him in any direction. ;) He'll make the most of it.
His audience turns into an army of activists when he exposes corruption. Maybe you've read about some of that in the news.
 

The Ocelot

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Now your getting it!

And for those thinking we are a threat to BT - at this point, not even close.
First, they are world wide
Second, in many countries, over 50% or the Population are Smokers
Third, Many countries long ago outright Banned e-cigs and others are following
Fourth, our little Industry is 1/3 BT's annual US advertising Budget :glare:

Yes, BT is playing Both sides. Protect current interest, Protect Future interest, attempt to Gain public and FDA trust that they are becoming more responsible:ohmy:, and make us think they give a crap about our preferences.:unsure:

Look at every angle in which we have been attacked and it is impossible to Blame BT alone. The list is to long to post now(to late at night for me) but there are literally over 100 organizations that have signed off with Lobbyist AGAINST Vapor Products. Not little Groups, Big Organizations including coalitions of smaller groups and Hugh Corporations, Many many Health organizations and down the line.
***ALL with Financial interest in seeing Vapor Products out of their way***

tobacco is Profitable for anti-tobacco Business. :-x

I remember reading the comment RJR submitted to the FDA during the comment period in 2014, but I haven't been able to find the complete document. I did find this ECF thread that quoted some of it. Notice how the grandfather date and "open" systems are specifically targeted.

RJ Reynolds (RAI) files FDA comment asking for its competition to be banned

--------
 

The Ocelot

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Something else I found interesting are the comments submitted by Altria in 2014 regarding cigars and pipe tobacco.

The page won't let me copy text, but scroll down to page 16 regarding the lack of standardized protocols for testing harmful constituents. It seems to me the points made are even more of an issue with ecigs than cigars or pipe tobacco.

http://www.altria.com/About-Altria/...Filings/ALCS-JMC-Comments-FDA-2014-N-0189.pdf
 
Last edited:

skoony

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National ID card.
Already said and done. Minnesota's legislature is discussing this.
Real ID Public FAQs | Homeland Security
Actually this couild save online vendors if they are allowed to survive.
If they can make CC readers for cell phones,they can make ID readers
for computers. New point of sales registers can read CC and ID cards.
Anything encoded with user data.
Regards
Mike
 

rosesense

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    I remember reading the comment RJR submitted to the FDA during the comment period in 2014, but I haven't been able to find the complete document. I did find this ECF thread that quoted some of it. Notice how the grandfather date and "open" systems are specifically targeted.

    RJ Reynolds (RAI) files FDA comment asking for its competition to be banned

    --------

    This discusses a bit of that. Sorry if it has already been posted, I saw it on another thread. This is from Newsweek:

    http://www.newsweek.com/vaping-big-tobacco-big-gamble-future-451074
     

    WillyZee

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    coldgin96

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    zoiDman

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    I remember reading the comment RJR submitted to the FDA during the comment period in 2014, but I haven't been able to find the complete document. I did find this ECF thread that quoted some of it. Notice how the grandfather date and "open" systems are specifically targeted.

    RJ Reynolds (RAI) files FDA comment asking for its competition to be banned

    --------

    And these are the Same Cigarette Sellers who some believe are Sincere in getting the GF moved up to Include All Open System e-Cigarettes.

    By design, closed-system cartridges cannot be altered or tampered with by consumers. In contrast, there are a growing number of open-system manufacturers—namely, aerosol tank manufacturers (which are typically located in China) and retail "vape shops" in the United States that sell, mix, and compound flavored liquid nicotine solutions that can be used across or within other aerosol tank products. By their very nature, open-system vapor products present a unique
    risk for adulteration, tampering, and quality control not exhibited by any other class of tobacco products. Moreover, due to their variability and use with any number of components, it is unclear if or how these products could gain clearance from the Agency, regardless of the pathway prescribed. For this reason, FDA should, in its final rule, ban the sale of open-system e-cigarettes, including all component parts.

    Didn't know it was So Easy for a Leopard to Change their Spots.

    LOL
     
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    Steamix

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    Wow, no post for 2 1/2 hours? This thread is dying!

    Not really. Things have been set in motion. Lawsuits, letting elected officials know. All that stuff doesn't all a
    happen on instagram for instajustice. Litigation can drag on for years, which could be swell in connecition with an injunction. If not, then same as before. Expect the thread to become lively again then. Meanwhile don't stop drilling. Many small holes can sink an ocean liner just the same as a one big gash. We're not the one icebarg to to the Titanic. We're a few million rust mites, eating away at the hull a tiny crumb at a time :)

    And we're ALL vapers actually. 7 billion of them, give or take a few million.

    There's this big yellow ball, a self-sustaining coil unit ( aka sun ).
    Heating a small ball, brimming with dihydrogen monoxide that get vaporized.

    Look up. No, not the ceiling, outside... :D

    Unless you're in some very dry corner of Texas or Arizona, what do you see ?

    Cloudz, bro. Homongous heap big cloudz, bro. Nic free. Mostly flavourless.

    Made by roughly 1000 Watts / square meter energy input.
    Beats your ratty 150w mech mod witout even trying.

    That mixture around us is reasonably to be expected to be inhaled , so it's all tobacco product.
    Can't help but to be inhaled, cuz if ya don't you'll be a victim of asphyxia.

    Air IS vapor. Sometimes a bit on the puny side, sometimes, well...
    ask the residents of Florida. I think on some days a ladle would be more efficient than a lung down there.

    Guess the FDA would send God a copy of the PMTA forms if they'd had a mailing adress....

    Oh wait... grandfather date...or did they mean 2007mill B.C instead of 2007 AD ? ..

    I'm confused now...
     

    Joules_Verne

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    Oh, no no no , you will Never see that. Like a Mob Boss, they have Cronies for the Dirty work :rolleyes:

    PMTA / SE

    Good cartoon crxess, that attitude runs counter to Einstein - I always remember a quote from one of our contributors "Einstein said that everyone is a genius but if you judge a goldfish on its ability to climb a tree it will go through life believing it is stupid" Seems to me that FDA/EU regulators are treating us as vapers in just this way.........

    AAEAAQAAAAAAAAg3AAAAJGVjMGQ3NzI4LWNhMGItNGU0Ny05ZjllLTY2YjJkOWQ3NTc1Nw.jpg
     

    Kent C

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    I have a dumb question. How will the FDA determine the product did or did not exist prior to the predicate date?

    Here's what the FDA says in the deeming doc:

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2016-10685.pdf

    Pg.20

    Regarding concerns as to the inability to use the SE pathway for certain products, FDA
    notes that an applicant may use as a predicate any tobacco product commercially marketed in the
    United States as of February 15, 2007, or previously found substantially equivalent (note that we
    interpret the phrase "as of" February 15, 2007, as meaning that the tobacco product was
    commercially marketed (other than exclusively in test markets) in the United States on February
    15, 2007. If your tobacco product had been commercially marketed in the United States before
    February 15, 2007, but was not commercially marketed on that date, it is not a grandfathered
    product and may not be commercially marketed unless you obtain a marketing authorization
    under section 910 of the FD&C Act).3 This may possibly include a predicate that is in a different
    category or subcategory than the new product that is the subject of the SE report. While FDA
    currently does not have a policy that limits comparisons to the same category, we do see cross
    category comparisons as more challenging for an applicant and we may express limitations on
    such comparisons in the future, if they become warranted as we gain experience regulating
    newly deemed products. FDA also is continuing to research e-cigarettes, other ENDS, and
    heated cigarette products that likely were on the market "as of" (i.e., on) February 15, 2007.
    Additionally, FDA has determined that some e-cigarettes and other ENDS were manufactured in
    2006 and commercially marketed in the United States in early 2007. In particular, we have
    identified an ENDS product that may have been on the market on February 15, 2007. This...

    -----
    ³FDA Guidance states that "f you cannot provide documentation specifically dated on February 15, 2007, FDA suggests you provide documentation of commercial marketing for a reasonable period of time before and after February 15, 2007." Guidance for Industry entitled "Establishing That a Tobacco Product Was Commercially Marketed in the United States as of February 15, 2007**** (79 FR 58358, Sept. 29, 2014), The guidance also provides examples of sources of evidence, e.g., bills of lading.

    Pg.21
    ...product may possibly be able to serve as a valid predicate for purposes of the SE pathway. The
    burden of demonstrating that a valid predicate exists rests with the manufacturer submitting a SE
    report. To facilitate the determination that a product is eligible to serve as a valid predicate, any
    individual who has evidence that an e-cigarette or other ENDS was commercially marketed in
    the United States on February 15, 2007, may submit a stand-alone grandfather submission to
    FDA (See final guidance, "Establishing That a Tobacco Product Was Commercially Marketed in
    the United States as of February 15, 2007" (79 FR 58358, September 29, 2014)). (Based on
    FDA's experiences to date, and since stand-alone grandfather submissions are purely voluntary,
    FDA does not anticipate that many manufacturers will make such submissions, but this option is
    available.) Regardless of the predicate selected for comparison, manufacturers are responsible
    for providing scientific data adequate to demonstrate that, in the case of an SE report, the
    characteristics of the new product are the same as the predicate or, if the characteristics are
    different, that these differences do not cause the new product to raise different questions of
    public health. We encourage interested parties to review the applications FDA posts on
    U S Food and Drug Administration Home Page for examples of products that do not raise different questions of public health when compared with the specified predicate product.

    ****Here's the guidance mentioned in note ³

    http://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/Labeling/RulesRegulationsGuidance/UCM416498.pdf
     

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