Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Lessifer]

Filing pretty much guarantees an e-liquid company an extra year in business. And it's a year when there will probably be a lot fewer competitors.

Guarantee is a much stronger word than I would use, and I'd be interested in the cost/benefit analysis that goes on there. I would imagine an incomplete PMTA would be rejected in much less than a year.

Some consumers (myself included) actually preferred "light" cigarettes pretty much the whole time (3-1/2 decades) we were smoking.

Sorry, I didn't mean that all users did that, just that the regulators assumed that all users did that. I preferred lights/blues myself, the reds/filters were too harsh for me.

 

[crxess]

showing that the product will or is expected to benefit the health of the population as a whole.

And By Design they do. No Tar and minimal Carcinogens as compared to the Alternative of Chronic Smokers.
As well as who knows how many other Reduced Risk...........


Like Cold Turkey Quitters breaking faces.

 

[Lessifer]

And By Design they do. No Tar and minimal Carcinogens as compared to the Alternative of Chronic Smokers.
As well as who knows how many other Reduced Risk...........


Like Cold Turkey Quitters breaking faces.

To a rational person, true. To an agency that seems to believe that exposing a single non-smoker to a minimal risk outweighs vastly reducing the risk to millions of smokers, well, good luck.

 

[zoiDman]

Filing pretty much guarantees an e-liquid company an extra year in business. And it's a year when there will probably be a lot fewer competitors.

Are you sure?

 

[zoiDman]

...

I think FA is trying to position themselves as the go-to flavorings house for e-liquid manufacturers who want to survive above-board in a regulated environment.

Whether this is actually a good business strategy remains to be seen.

I could see that. And like you said, whether or Not this is a Wise Move on their part is yet to be Known.

 

[Kent C]

I suppose that's possible.

I keep coming back, in my head, to the fact that if nothing is done about vapor products being subject to the FSPTCA, it's going to suck, big time. Any way you slice it.

Unless they are making big $$ with their nic products, I think going back to just flavorings and VG and PG would be their best route money wise. I wouldn't trust the FDA to accept anyone's PMTA's actually. I know tobacco companies likely have the resources for them but even so, they could be rejected, as well.

If everything goes 'black', it's still nice to know one could get their flavorings from a good company. I got on to FA when Nick O'teen (Decadent Vapours) said he got some of his flavoring from there.(2009) Before DV started selling flavorings, I got the Ylang Ylang and Lotus Flavorings from FA - same as DV was selling as a pre-mix. Although I bought those as part of the 'prepper' buy from DV, it's where I'd go if I ran out.

 

[Rossum]

Guarantee is a much stronger word than I would use

OK, maybe too strong. Filing is an eliquid company's best shot at an extra year in business.

I would imagine an incomplete PMTA would be rejected in much less than a year.

Right, no point in trying to do it half-ways.

Sorry, I didn't mean that all users did that, just that the regulators assumed that all users did that. I preferred lights/blues myself, the reds/filters were too harsh for me.

Yep, nobody ever compelled anyone to buy the light or ultra-light varieties, yet they had considerable market share judging by the shelf space they were allocated. However, my sense is that there was a limit to the lightness that consumers would accept and some brands that went below that never got any much market share.

 

[Vandal]

Canola Oil is toxic- it is GMO, extracted by toxic processes, and is rancid. Vegetable and seed oils are bad for you as well. Extra Virgin Olive Oil (and not the fake ones at the grocery store- I order the award-winning Apollo oils from California), Fresh Pressed (unrefined) Virgin Coconut Oil, and grass-fed butter are all I use. A good rule of thumb, if it doesn't taste like food, it isn't, so good oils will impart their own flavors.

 

[Rossum]

Are you sure?

No, one can never predict the future with certainty. I did agree that "guarantee" was too strong. But if I were running a large e-liquid company, I'd sure be weighing the cost of filing vs. what I could make in the extra year that it should get me. I'm not sure I'd count on more than a year though.

 

[snork]

Right, no point in trying to do it half-ways.

Suppose the many vendors/manufacturers who don't have the ability or desire to ever submit "proper" PMTAs sent in a large number of <ahem> decoy PMTAs even if they were written with crayon on toilet paper?
Yeah that would be fun, but probably would hold up the approval of legitimate submissions. As if.

 

[bigdancehawk]

Oh stop being so sensitive, you're acting like a lawyer for chrissake.
The bigshot was the guy in the interview and if you hadn't been so
into finding fault and arguing like lawyers like to do
you would have understood my words instead of getting your drawers bunched up thinking
I was calling you a bigshot.
Why would I do that? You're the dude being hostile.
I don't know you and seriously doubt that a semi retired Missouri lawyer
is a bigshot..so relax.
I admitted my limited knowledge in conversation with Lessifer
and if you'd read the whole thread you'd have seen that.

But you accused me in a hostile manner of not knowing process
when I have a shield that proves different, and you had plenty of opportunity
to educate us about the law and your experience as an attorney
but instead did not.

If you listen to the interview with an open mind
you'll see that the attorney being interviewed is indeed a BIGSHOT
as far as his experience in dealing with the FDA
and you'll hear the interviewer propose or ask about filing injunctions
to which the attorney responds in an evident negative manner.

Now, like I told you last night, you win.
I'm not out to prove anything and you can say what you will.
I'll not entertain you any longer
because of my great consideration for my fellow man
and a perverse sense of professional courtesy...

bye

I'd like to say "bye" to you as well, but I'll either need to stop reading this thread or figure out a way to "ignore this poster."

Oh stop being so sensitive, you're acting like a lawyer for chrissake.
The bigshot was the guy in the interview and if you hadn't been so
into finding fault and arguing like lawyers like to do
you would have understood my words instead of getting your drawers bunched up thinking
I was calling you a bigshot.
Why would I do that? You're the dude being hostile.
I don't know you and seriously doubt that a semi retired Missouri lawyer
is a bigshot..so relax.
I admitted my limited knowledge in conversation with Lessifer
and if you'd read the whole thread you'd have seen that.

But you accused me in a hostile manner of not knowing process
when I have a shield that proves different, and you had plenty of opportunity
to educate us about the law and your experience as an attorney
but instead did not.

If you listen to the interview with an open mind
you'll see that the attorney being interviewed is indeed a BIGSHOT
as far as his experience in dealing with the FDA
and you'll hear the interviewer propose or ask about filing injunctions
to which the attorney responds in an evident negative manner.

Now, like I told you last night, you win.
I'm not out to prove anything and you can say what you will.
I'll not entertain you any longer
because of my great consideration for my fellow man
and a perverse sense of professional courtesy...

bye

Bye. This balances out the marriage proposal I got in response to the last post I made on a legal matter.
Does this forum has an "ignore this poster" feature?

 

[Myrany]

Bye. This balances out the marriage proposal I got in response to the last post I made on a legal matter.
Does this forum has an "ignore this poster" feature?

yes.
CLick on the posters name under their portrait and choose ignore.

 

[bigdancehawk]

Not getting into the argument here, but if it's the interview I'm thinking of, I THINK the potential negative with the injunction is if the judge decides NOT to grant it, which would mean that the judge does not think you stand a decent chance of winning. That was my lay interpretation at least.

The whole point of a lawsuit like this is to get an injunction. If you get a preliminary injunction, it pretty much means "game over," and the chances are very, very good that you'll get the permanent injunction. So, it's not a good sign if you don't get the PI.
Doesn't mean you might not somehow find a way to change the district court judge's mind and it doesn't mean you won't win on appeal.
These cases will ultimately be decided on appeal to the federal circuit court(s). There's a whole lot of procedural maneuvering between now and a ruling on a PI, and a lot more before these cases are decided on appeal.

 

[bigdancehawk]

yes.
CLick on the posters name under their portrait and choose ignore.

Oh, thank you!

 

[bigdancehawk]

Ya think? LOL

It kinda like when someone says you have to Jump over a Bar that is High Enough. And when you ask them "How High is High Enough?", they say "We aren't going to Tell You. Because we Don't Have to."

---

Face it. This how "Tobacco" Thing was/is based around Dis-Approving what the FDA Does Want. Not about Meeting a Recognized Standard that is based on Science and Health.

Nominated for Post of the Day.

 

[nineironman]

It looks like they did. Google heat-not-burn cigarettes. Apparently they didn't market them in the US.

What I want to know is, what's to stop Big Tobacco from adding to e-liquid the same toxic chemicals they add to tobacco cigarettes to make them addictive? When I switched from tobacco cigarettes to vaping, I did experience some mild withdrawal for 2-3 weeks. I had read that was possible, so I was prepared. My understanding was that the withdrawals were from the toxic chemicals in tobacco cigarettes. Without those to deal with, vapers apparently find it much easier to wean off the nicotine.

Could BT see an end to that?

Which would be why most vapers I know are 3 to 6 mg users.

 

[bigdancehawk]

these guys might ... their pockets are really deep

it might be one of the only juice lines left standing ... and their cigalikes should pass no problem

Artist Collection | NJOY | E-Liquids

The FDA will almost have to allow some sort of e-cigarette on the market. Otherwise, their claim that deeming isn't an outright ban will be an obvious lie. However, I'm not so sure the same applies to juice. The FDA is all about control, and the "problem" with e-juice is that it can be used in a vast number of unapproved devices and vaped at a wide range of temperatures, including high enough temperatures to produce formaldehyde and other nasties.

 

[Yiana]

It looks like they did. Google heat-not-burn cigarettes. Apparently they didn't market them in the US.

What I want to know is, what's to stop Big Tobacco from adding to e-liquid the same toxic chemicals they add to tobacco cigarettes to make them addictive? When I switched from tobacco cigarettes to vaping, I did experience some mild withdrawal for 2-3 weeks. I had read that was possible, so I was prepared. My understanding was that the withdrawals were from the toxic chemicals in tobacco cigarettes. Without those to deal with, vapers apparently find it much easier to wean off the nicotine.

Could BT see an end to that?

That is exactly what I have been thinking.

 

[SeniorBoy]

They do only sell flavorings, but they cater specifically to the vaping industry. If they sell flavorings, intended to be used with nicotine liquid, directly to consumers, are they not manufacturers of tobacco product components? Are those components not finished tobacco products?

FA sells ejuice ready to vape in the EU market. Example

PB did a couple of factory tour videos and they are very impressive. I will try and find the link but bro Shaun who is the North American President of FA indicated they were going to get PMTAs. Since they are perhaps the worlds largest vaping flavor shop, this makes sense until I find the interview. They have always been the gold standard with outstanding transparency ala clearstream and even the ability to communicate with them directly by a mear mortal DIY geek.

 

[HazyShades]

I'd advise against consuming unprocessed Rape Seed oil. Instead of googling Canola try Rape Seed Oil.

Wired, the Turkish soap is finished and it's all written down for my bud, @Woofer
but I'm hesitant to post it here due to it being off topic sort of
and the possibility somebody may interpret my expose as an affront to Canada.

What I've found says the FDA didn't wanna approve it for sale in the US
until lots of money changed hands and the FDA
doesn't let it be in baby formula...

I'm thinking of messaging @Woofer with a paste
or posting this on the outside.

Bad stuff.