Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

MacTechVpr

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My point is that just like with vaping, safety is relative. vaping is safer than smoking, but doing neither is safer than vaping. Wearing a seat belt CAN be safer than not, but not always. Seat belts can save lives, but not if an 18 wheeler jackknifes off an over pass and lands on top of your car. It should be my choice to wear it or not, since me wearing it or not, does not harm others in the slightest.

OH, my dependents though. What if I don't have any? Can it be my choice then? What if I have a BILLION dollar life insurance policy? Can it be my choice then?

For the record, I do wear one most of the time, but I should not be forced to do it, or be ticketed for not doing it.

I'd forego the seat belt for a two-wheeler every time but for my back, as I did daily for many years. How I got that way was in large measure the impact of the air bag. But that's a long story.

I see your point. All life is risk. And we all take it in proportion.

Good luck. :)
 

stols001

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Yes, I'd love a car that "drove" where I wanted, until someone found a way to hack it.

I don't trust "AI" all that much, period. I mean.... Okay, all the metros in DC were self driving but they also had an "operator." There are times that operator was "needed."

It's not about cost efficiency if you ask me (I'm sure there is an argument to be made), it's more about safety.

I don't consider "mandatory" AI cars to be remotely safe. Another argument really NOT suited to vaping.

I gotta quit, this thread is just going in circles.

If we're talking about personal safety vs. risk reduction laws, perhaps there is a smidge of relevancy.

I guess the analogy I'd make would be similar to the harm reduction component, and we need to be insistent about the fact that kids who chose to vape still have MUCH less relative harm than those choosing to smoke.

It is also the argument that the government does NOT want to see made, for that very reason. They want more smokers, and they want young smokers, and they want that, they don't care about ANYTHING but that.

Similarly, the US is criminalizing opiate use now, instead of just deregulating drugs, period. Any time a drug gets bumped up by regulation, it becomes more expensive. It also penalizes the dependent, not the pill seekers. The US wants MORE pill use, they can charge money, lock people up and criminalize legitimate opiate use. The more sane strategy would be deregulation.

And, my own personal opiate use story? Well, I got hooked on a synthetic opiate that was so fervently adopted by the pharm companies as non addictive, neither I nor my doc could find a SHRED of evidence it was. I wasn't criminalized (back then) for my use of it, and I see NO reason why I should have been. I also see NO rationale for a ...... addict to have to suffer as much as they do, given that clean, legal ...... being available and the funds used for further harm reduction efforts... They could TAX it to hell and back.

Most people don't actively SEARCH out an opiate addiction. It's not fun, it's incredibly unpleasant, and to then lock someone up for it? Trust me, the addiction and having to address it is more than enough fallout.

Really, what we are seeing in some states just brings it home for me. Job creation, tax creation, moving an illicit market to a licit one, not to mention there ARE health benefits.

The US government could have ALL that with vaping. But, they chose another approach, one that is very, very disturbing, if you ask me.

The US is so stuck up about "freedom from" that they forget about "freedom to." John Rawls has some cogent arguments about what "freedom to" can bring. None of us oppose traffic signals, or the fact that a roller rink is safer if all skaters move in the same direction. Yet, they curtail your freedom, if you really think about it.

Freedom to engage in harm reduction is a freedom TO. It is being attacked. Because it's not all about individual CHOICE, we find ourselves being squeezed down an increasingly narrow corridor, until what we hold in our hands is a "closed mentholated pod" as we have not advocated enough for our freedom TO choose harm reduction.

No one in the US gets that. Britain focuses a lot on "freedom to" sometimes at the expense of a liberty or two. However, unfortunately, the US remains blindly focused on our "rights" to whatever, while neglecting the very things necessary to have a society that contains "the good" not just the "whatever WON'T affect our individual liberties to do X" they also use children as pawns and I'm not a great big fan of that.

But, politicians today are NEVER going to focus on "the good" in our society and there are times where I consider our current situation quite, quite far from individual liberties, because someone can always make the argument "But, if one kid comes to HARM... etc."

I don't understand why the US is increasingly treating it's children as government property, well I DO understand it, but I don't accept it.

Vaping is no different. We need to address that teens need the "freedom to" be teens, without pawning them, and while accepting that some children will DIE as a result of their choices. That is a very hard thing to accept, and my argument is, and remains, "Vaping is overall a societal good. It should be in place, despite the amount of individual harm to a child, which is at this point not even really known yet."

You make that argument, you get yelled at. It is still truth that freedom from/freedom to need to be addressed in very different ways, and if you make the freedom TO argument, you will be ignored/targeted/spoken about in a bad fashion, because here, freedom FROM is the idea that gets bandied about. And being free of tyranny is a good, most certainly. But, there are other kinds of freedom.

I also believe any teen "cited" as OMG, a vaper, by our society, should be designated AS an adult from that moment forward, because the US is treating teens like "citizens" and using them to further their aims. I just say, issue fresh birth certificates to all teen vapers causing them to turn 18. I'm not kidding. Because a child is not a property of the government, to be used and abused as desired. I'm in a state of mild fury about it, actually. If the US wants to let a teen give a speech after a school shooting? Hand them a DL with "18" printed on it, hand them a GED certificate, and send them on their merry way.

Oh, what's that? She can't be an adult? BUT her views were blasted ALL over the media while the president watched. RIGHT, okay, that's not an adult behavior? Maybe someone else should have given the speech, who was, um, an adult?

Anna
 

Lessifer

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By that logic skydiving should be banned, bungee jumping should be banned, maybe scuba diving and even driving should be banned too? I dated a girl who's dad died falling off of a bicycle and hitting his head on a rock, so I guess cycling should be banned. I personally know a guy who's mother died falling off the BOTTOM rung of a step ladder, hit her head on the corner of a table, so ladders should be banned. Lots of people die every year in the shower and in house fires caused by electrical shorts. Should they ban showers and electricity? You could use that logic to make it so everyone has to live in a bubble, with no electricity, never take showers, and never do anything else that could potentially be dangerous at all. Sorry but no thanks.

EDIT: I forgot to add another important point. If your goal is that ones dependents are not societal burdens, then where is the regulation that REQUIRES people to have gainful employment to support those dependents while the person is actually still alive?
Not bans, but there are regulations that touch all of the things you mentioned, such as licenses for sky diving instructors to electrical codes for home wiring. Most of those things would be some form of interaction between two people, like an electrician wiring your house, or someone making the ladder that you slipped off of.

While I do agree that regulations are often, if not always, taken too far, they do serve a purpose in a society as large and intricate as ours.
 

Ionori

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    Modern ape-driven cars aren't actually hack-proof, thanks to all the on-board computers, and there are definitely many wrong ways to implement mandatory AI-driven cars, but you're right, the specifics of it are off-topic.

    The evidence is overwhelming that legalizing and regulating drugs is by far the best solution, and criminalizing drugs is the worst one (provided your metric isn't "how many people can we enslave in private prisons"); and even drug use among adolescents declines with legalization.

    The utility of vaping as an alternative to smoking and as a tool to quit smoking is so great compared to the harm of it that legalization and regulation are the obviously correct strategy; I'm sure most people would be happy to pay a little more for their supplies if it meant greater safety through, for example, research into what effects particular chemicals used in liquids have on the body when inhaled.
     

    newyork13

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    How young would a child have to be to actually confuse a juice box with a "juice" box?
    How old do you have to be to buy e-liquid again?
    Where do you usually find e-liquid like that?
    How much BS are you willing to eat before you start fighting back, instead of trying to squeak by?
    What happens inside the household is the fault of the parents. Period.
    How do kids get a hold of juices or Juuls in their neighborhoods?
    Illegally. So prosecute the vendors who don't have adequate controls.
    How do kids buy off the internet?
    Good question. Do their parents provide credit cards? Now, that would be nuts. My kids are grown and out. But, I would never in a million years have provided them with credit cards.
    So, it seems to me, simpleton that I am, that it's a failure of parental control and a failure of holding B&Ms to the law.
    Mind your kiddies, and leave me alone.
     

    newyork13

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    "The best government is that which governs least."

    Thomas Jefferson or Henry David Thoreau or John Locke - take your pick.

    Sadly there are very few in or out of government who hold to such a thought.
    Nice quote.
    But, remember that those within government are paid to govern most, not least. They've gotta earn that paycheck.
     

    Rossum

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    How about the ingestion or injection of addictive drugs or not using a seat belt, should that be Okay? I am not disagreeing with you but how far down the "my body" road does one go? Does it have definable limits?
    Who owns your body?
     

    mikepetro

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    If it doesnt cause "harm" to someone else, then to each their own.
    I dont believe in victimless crimes.

    Thats the rule I try live by.......

    Now seeing certain bodys naked, could cause irreparable harm.......

    What flavor I choose to vape causes nobody else any harm.
     
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    CMD-Ky

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    Who owns your body?

    I no longer know who "owns" my body. It seems that the concept shifts from issue to issue today. Now, I, of course, believe that I own body but it appears that there are people within the government and within the makeup of society who disagree with me.
     

    MacTechVpr

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    I no longer know who "owns" my body. It seems that the concept shifts from issue to issue today. Now, I, of course, believe that I own body but it appears that there are people within the government and within the makeup of society who disagree with me.

    I don't know C, the collective's compassion is boundless, ain't it? ;)

    Good luck. :)
     

    untar

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    That's not a problem if anybody can choose to be a victim regarding anything. Just hold out for a little longer, we're almost there
    Kappa.png
     

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