Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[UncLeJunkLe]

You're right, it's not the fault of the manufacturer. FDA forced them to falsely advertise. We need to get a class action against the FDA. How do we get this started?

I WANT MY NICOTINE, FDA. WHERE IS IT?!

 

[Vapeon4Life]

You're right, it's not the fault of the manufacturer. FDA forced them to falsely advertise. We need to get a class action against the FDA. How do we get this started?

I WANT MY NICOTINE, FDA. WHERE IS IT?!

I brought this up about a class action lawsuit a few weeks and posted it in a post
I started:

IS FDA BANNING VAPING?

- Here is an intelligent response as to why it might not work:

The main issue with consumers filing a class action against FDA is that you need to show actual damages (financial or physical.) There's really no way to do that at this point. Those lawsuits against JUUL are claiming damages to youth and creating problems in schools. The lawsuits against FDA are claiming youth are being harmed and misrepresent youth vaping rates to back up their claim. All vapers can say at this point is the FDA "may" be risking the future health of adult consumers, but can't point to any actual damages. (This may change in a few years if people who went back to smoking get sick, but FDA can argue that was from the smoking.) FDA can also argue that it hasn't "banned" anything, but rather companies have failed to meet the requirements for marketing. And that it's protecting youth, while adults can use other FDA-approved products or tobacco/menthol flavored vape products (in the event FDA actually authorizes any.)

Additionally, suing the FDA wouldn't have any kind of payout for the legal team, so they'd charge for their work. The groups suing the FDA and JUUL all have VERY deep pockets -- either state attorneys using taxpayer dollars or Bloomberg-funded ANTZ groups. vaping consumers don't have that kind of funding to pay for suing the FDA.

I left it at that - for the moment.
But the more I thought about it..........Manufacturers suing the FDA have little to lose, and if one lawsuit loses they can and will try others and from various manufacturers.

But if 'we' {us vapers as a class} file a lawsuit and lose - A worse case scenario might occur.
The FDA could then claim 'we' have no standing and no right to vaping as a harm reduction product - And then even more draconian regulations and laws might ensue.

It would be like 'smokers rights' issues from years ago - And didn't they finally end up deciding that smokers have no rights ? We really don't want to see this happening to vaping.

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

I brought this up about a class action lawsuit a few weeks and posted it in a post
I started few weeks ago
IS FDA BANNING VAPING?
- Here is an intelligent response as to why it might not work:



I left it at that as it - for the moment.
But the more I thought about it..........Manufacturers suing the FDA have little to lose, and if one lawsuit loses they can and will try others and from various manufacturers.

But ir 'we' {us vapers as a class} file a lawsuit and lose - A worse case scenario might occur.
The FDA could then claim we have no standing and no right to vaping as a harm reduction product - And then even more draconian regulations and laws might ensue.

It would be like 'smokers rights' issues from years ago - And didn't they finally end up deciding that smokers have no rights ? We really don't want to see this happening to vaping.

This is different. The damages are well-defined in this specific scenario being talked about presently in this thread.

- The FDA forced manufacturers to advertise that their products contain nicotine,
- I bought the product expecting to receive the advertised nicotine,
- The product did not contain any nicotine,
- Therefore I didn't get the nicotine I paid for.

At the FDA's expense, I want my money back for every piece of hardware I bought that was forced by the FDA to contain a "this product contains nicotine" label on it. I have all my receipts.

Accelerate the demise. That is the only possibly-effective weapon we the people have been left with.

 

[Vapeon4Life]

This is different. The damages are well-defined in this specific scenario being talked about presently in this thread.

- The FDA forced manufacturers to advertise that their products contain nicotine,
- I bought the product expecting to receive the advertised nicotine,
- The product did not contain any nicotine,
- Therefore I didn't get the nicotine I paid for.

True - but where will this get us?
As it stands trying to make monkeys out of the FDA is not our purpose
- We want to block the FDA from enforcement of regulations that are disingenuous in intent and purpose.
Regulations that are in fact endangering rather than protecting public health.
We want to prove that vaping is a harm reduction product that may save, and probably already has saved,
many lives.
We want to prove, and will show, that there is more evidence that the FDA, operating under bought and paid for interests, is endangering public health - And that vaping is not only not a threat to public health - but is in fact of great real and potential benefit - And will produce evidence from places such as England to argue the case for the benefit of vaping for harm reduction - And for flavored vape products to help brake addiction to lit tobacco which is known to be killing millions of people yearly !

 

[DPLongo22]

Did anyone else hear the rumors of some letter going out to at least some vendors?

I do not know if it's true (which is why I'm asking). If I missed this in a prior post, my apologies.

>

Effective October 21, 2021, electronic nicotine delivery systems (ENDS) become non-mailable under the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking (PACT) Act along with Cigarettes and Smokeless Tobacco unless the shipments fall within certain exceptions, as explained below. A knowing violation of the PACT Act can carry a three-year prison sentence and can result in a $5,000 fine for the first offense and a $10,000 fine for subsequent offenses.
**ENDS are defined in the law as any electronic device that aerosolizes a solution of nicotine, flavor, or any other substance and delivers the vapor to the user inhaling from the device. Despite the name, ENDS are not limited to products containing or intended to be used with nicotine. Examples include e-cigarettes, e-hookahs, e-cigars, vape pens, advanced refillable personal vaporizers, and electronic pipes. For mailability purposes, ENDS also include any component, liquid, part, or accessory of ENDS, regardless of whether it is sold separately from the device.**
**Cigarettes, Smokeless Tobacco or ENDS are mailable only in the following circumstances:**
**Alaska/Hawaii: Shipments entirely within Alaska or Hawaii.**
**Business/Regulatory Purposes: Shipments transmitted between verified and authorized ENDS/tobacco industry businesses for business purposes, or between such businesses and federal or state agencies for regulatory purposes.**
**Certain Individuals: Infrequent, lightweight shipments mailed by age-verified adult individuals. This exception applies to shipments sent to APO/FPO destinations, where Cigarettes, Smokeless Tobacco or ENDS devices or components are not otherwise restricted.**
**Tobacco Cessation/Therapeutic Products: products approved by the Food and Drug Administration for sale as tobacco cessation products or for other therapeutic purposes and marketed and sold solely for such purposes.**
**Consumer Testing/Public Health: ENDS do not qualify for this exception, it is limited to Cigarettes & Smokeless Tobacco**

 

[thanswr1]

Another lawsuit filed. This one by e-liquid manufacturer Triton Distribution.

"Black-letter rules of administrative law prevent an agency from retroactively changing legal requirements and from doing so without accounting for reliance interests. FDA failed to satisfy these requirements when it executed an about-face on the evidence [required for PMTAs]."

"Triton has been irreparably harmed as a result and faces an imminent shutdown of its business in approximately two weeks. Thus, Triton respectfully requests that the Court enter an emergency stay of FDA’s MDO for Triton’s products by October 15, 2021, and order expedited merits briefing."

"Triton later learned, through FDA’s response to its [FOIA] request, that FDA’s 'scientific review' apparently consisted of only two 'check-the-box' forms—each of which was only three pages long."

.

Interesting because I believe Triton Distribution includes Halo, Suicide Bunny, Cuttwood, maybe Beard, etc. Or maybe I have the wrong Triton.

I believed, from the beginning of this farce, major vape companies were not going to take this lying down. Too much money was involved for a company to forgo a ton of profits.

Plus, I don't think the FDA ever meant for this farce of a PMTA process to get this far. The FDA PMTA proceess would have one of those government programs everyone is hot for in the beginning, but slowly drifts away and drowns in the government bureaucracy and is forgotten.

 

[thanswr1]

**Cigarettes, Smokeless Tobacco or ENDS are mailable only in the following circumstances:**
*Certain Individuals: Infrequent, lightweight shipments mailed by age-verified adult individuals. This exception applies to shipments sent to APO/FPO destinations, where Cigarettes, Smokeless Tobacco or ENDS devices or components are not otherwise restricted.**[/COLOR]

What the hell does this mean? Does it mean I can get 2 bottles a month from Beard?

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

What the hell does this mean? Does it mean I can get 2 bottles a month from Beard?

individuals

 

[thanswr1]

individuals

Too early for me to do any deep thinking. So, as an "individual", I can still get vape liquid delivered to my home in small quantities?

 

[WorksForMe]

What the hell does this mean? Does it mean I can get 2 bottles a month from Beard?

I'm not sure where your quote is from, but it says it only applies to military APO/FPO addresses. I'm guessing that you're not in the military.

.

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

Too early for me to do any deep thinking. So, as an "individual", I can still get vape liquid delivered to my home in small quantities?

From an individual to an individual. Not from a business entity to an individual.

Infrequent, lightweight shipments mailed by age-verified adult individuals.

The rules for sending "tobacco products" from person to person via USPS is outlined by the USPS. It's in the mail ban thread.

DMM Revision: Treatment of Cigarettes and Smokeless Tobacco as Nonmailable Matter (still not revised for ENDS)

- Total package weight must be no more than 10 oz.

- Must be shipped using face-to-face service. In other words, must present package to postal worker at USPS counter. No pickups allowed. Proof of age and identity of sender must be verified with govt issued photo ID.

- Must be sent with "Express Mail" (I take this to mean Priority Express? - expensive, minimum $25 but more if Adult 21+ Signature service is required to be purchased - not clear on that. You will be paying retail rates since you have to buy this postage at the post office, so it might even be closer to $30+ all tolled just to ship one small package).

- Shipping label must bear real, full names of both shipper and recipient.

- Outside of package must be labeled with wording "PERMITTED TOBACCO MAILING – DELIVER ONLY TO AGE-VERIFIED ADULT OF LEGAL AGE"

- USPS will not deliver package to recipient. Package will be held at local post office for pickup and successful pickup will require proof of age and identity of recipient, verified with govt issued photo ID. Recipient must sign PS Form 3849.

- One person cannot mail more than 10 such shipments a 30-day period (meaning, you will likely be put in a database in order to track your identity and how many C2C tobacco product shipments you made in the last 30-days, which is why you have to ship it via a trip to the post office).

 

[thanswr1]

Is the official USPS policy about e-cigs out or are we just speculating on what supposed to happen in March?

Did I miss something?

 

[WorksForMe]

Is the official USPS policy about e-cigs out or are we just speculating on what supposed to happen in March?

Did I miss something?

At this point, vapemail is still legal.

.

 

[Territoo]

At this point, vapemail is still legal.

.

But that can change any day.

 

[Vapeon4Life]

But that can change any day.

Weird - to say the least.
The postal shipping is actually technically not legal.
But the Post Office, while saying it would comply {how many months ago was that?
Then said, or implied, technical issues are preventing compliance.
Do you believe this is true? - Sure it may be but we all know the USPS is bleeding money and probably is not inclined to increase costs and lose revenue by having to enforce a mail ban that only some politicos wanted
- I do believe, and have been told, there are at least some in congress still on our side.
And how much revenue will government lose by having to ban items that for now they are taxing the hell out of anyway?

 

[zoiDman]

...
The postal shipping is actually technically not legal.
...

Why do You say this is so?

 

[Vapeon4Life]

Why do You say this is so?

USPS Postpones Ban on Shipping Vaping Products
USPS requires additional time to review how to best implement changes ordered by Congress on prohibiting sending vaping products
Last month, Congress ruled that it was now illegal to ship electronic cigarettes and other vaping products within the United States and abroad. As a result, neither individuals nor businesses are now able to ship vaping products with USPS. This change came as part of an amendment to the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking (PACT) Act, and technically took effect on April 26th. However, USPS has announced a delay to the implementation of this rule.

The Postal Service’s Reason for Delaying the Ban on Shipping Vaping Products

USPS has postponed the implementation of the ban because it needs to give more consideration to the matter. The fact is, thousands of businesses legally ship similar products, and they rely on the USPS network each day. Consequently,....."

USPS Postpones Ban on Shipping Vaping Products


"It ain't over till its over"
- Yogi Berra

 

[zoiDman]

USPS Postpones Ban on Shipping Vaping Products
USPS requires additional time to review how to best implement changes ordered by Congress on prohibiting sending vaping products
Last month, Congress ruled that it was now illegal to ship electronic cigarettes and other vaping products within the United States and abroad. As a result, neither individuals nor businesses are now able to ship vaping products with USPS. This change came as part of an amendment to the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking (PACT) Act, and technically took effect on April 26th. However, USPS has announced a delay to the implementation of this rule.

The Postal Service’s Reason for Delaying the Ban on Shipping Vaping Products

USPS has postponed the implementation of the ban because it needs to give more consideration to the matter. The fact is, thousands of businesses legally ship similar products, and they rely on the USPS network each day. Consequently, this ban on e-cigarettes and vape products won’t just affect businesses in the cigarette industry. It will also hurt many small operations who (legally) manufacture and ship other products, such as industrial hemp-derived CBD.

Currently, USPS hasn’t provided a clear definition of when a final decision will take place. On Monday, April 26th, USPS spokesman David P. Coleman provided the following quote via email:

“Despite our best efforts, in order to ensure thorough and thoughtful consideration of the complex issues and voluminous comments by industry, individual, and governmental stakeholders, the Postal Service is unable to publish a final rule by today’s target date.”

That said, Coleman also stated that USPS would finalize the rule “as soon as possible,” and that shippers should be “prepared for implementation upon publication anytime.”

USPS Postpones Ban on Shipping Vaping Products


"It ain't over till its over"
- Yogi Berra

Didn't you just post Support Documentations as to Why USPS Shipping Is Still Legal.

Or perhaps you Type-Oed your original post?

 

[Vapeon4Life]

Didn't you just post Support Documentations as to Why USPS Shipping Is Still Legal.

Or perhaps you Type-Oed your original post?

This change came as part of an amendment to the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking (PACT) Act, and technically took effect on April 26th. However, USPS has announced a delay to the implementation of this rule.

Again "technically took effect on April 26th."

So 'technically' the post office is illegally shipping vape supplies - NO complaints from me !

But when the 'dick heads' who passed this bought and paid for legislation will take the USPS to court, like they did with the FDA, is anyone's guess ?

 

[CMD-Ky]

Is the official USPS policy about e-cigs out or are we just speculating on what supposed to happen in March?

Did I miss something?

Are we just speculating? This is the ECF, we know, we never speculate, we are completely secure in our knowledge.