Diketone thread #411

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Jman8

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Here's what I truly think about the diacetyl issue.

In order of importance

1 - vaping is very visibly peaking in its cultural existence. We are still living in the Golden Era, and it is phenomenal on so many levels. I don't think I've experienced such a market in my lifetime, especially considering it's (very visible) opposing force. Fortunately, all that is great about vaping far outweighs that opposing force, mighty as it might be perceived, to be. Diacetyl has been part of vaping since it's inception. So, to think this teeny tiny of a smidgeon of an issue holds any true challenge to vaping is farcical. Diacetyl could be widely available for another 50 years, and vaping is going to be just fine.

2 - Vaping, IMO, is mainly popular due to its abundance of flavorings. Certainly not the only reason (almost too many to list), but I would say is reason #1 why it got popular and has stayed popular. Again, diketones have been there since the beginning. Without any diketones in any flavor going forward, vaping would be great and do well. With diketones in there it has done supremely well and it be impossible to believe it would be less than great if it continued as such for another, I dunno, let's say 50 years.

3 - Opposition to vaping has, thus far, made the case they are making by being demonstratively (or even zealously) deceptive in their tactics. But like Trump, that sort of bizarre, almost illogical approach to the political narrative is widely popular / accepted. Like overwhelmingly so. And from die hard vaping perspective, very disappointingly so. Anyway, diketone issue is mostly, but certainly not only, yet another instance where opposition seeks to contain and degrade vaping culture. Flavors being, quite visibly, a key pillar that they would like to undermine. Sooner than later.

4 - Because we are living in the Golden Era, and vaping is doing as well as it is, by showing how a free market looks/behaves, vapers today have a choice to vape with or without diketones. Imagine that. Had this not occurred during the Golden Era, then that would be something. Having options galore in what your product includes, doesn't include, plus all the many device options is pretty darn close to being #1 reason vaping is so popular. Just makes vaping all the more wonderful. But really, flavors is the #1 reason.

5 - Science is science. Hypothesis, observation, (actual) evidence, conclusion. Supposition is supposition. Diketone issue, as it stands right now is supposition. Express your viewpoint all that you feel you must. But when it finally enters the domain of science, we can talk like adults on what is actually occurring. For right now, the potentials of vaping are many and overlapping. The potential risk from diketones in vape products, is firmly planted in the fertile grounds of supposition. From the scientific perspective, it is yet to sprout. Try as it might.

6 - I believe diketones will be allowed in future products up to a point. That limit (number) likely will be made aware to all customers, but the actual amount, I believe won't be or only is a maybe. Even then, who knows how accurate that figure is? My main point is that it will be around, in vape products, for many years to come, regardless of regulation.

7 - Most customers of vaping don't care. I think of this way of establishing how trivial the issue actually is. As one who is vocal on this issue, I wish more knew about the actual debate being had. Instead, those who may not know what forum vapers understand / discuss, perhaps have inkling of information to suggest it is only bad news. Even then, I feel confident that it is teeny tiny subset that is aware and likely will be aware for long time to come.

8 - Finally, for those of us who are aware. It is an issue. The latest one. But certainly not the last one. There will be others like this. A politically aware vaper knows it's not the first. All this to say that I filter much of the diacetyl issue through the needs of the opposing force. Not entirely how I perceive it as I think there is several things to consider on the tangent, some of which have very little to do with opposition. But the key points thus far, have lots to do with opposition (see my #2 point above). To be frank, I do kinda sorta mean opposing force in a Star Wars sort of way. As in the diketone issue is, for me, more of a we're doing it to ourselves issue than a 'they are ought to get us man.' Clearly there is a 'they' that is out to get vapers. But these many issues that have come up, and will keep coming up, is an us thing, in my worldview. At the very least, how we respond is on us. And since it's still in the Golden Era, where the choice exists, I think we are doing fine. Perfect in fact.

I hope it lasts.
 

Douggro

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The pin is out and it's rolling on the floor..Who's going to dive on it? :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

IMFire3605

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Well posted. Though I am in the camp of if it has any diketones in the juice or can create diketones due to heat and chemical reaction keep it out of my face, don't care how savory and flavorful it may seem. Even home popcorn I air pop mine, no microwave popcorn or such in my house due to that is my own personal phobia and demon, have had it most my adult life, that and the butter of those popcorns taste artificial to me and bleh. My stance is, you like your vape, I like mine, since being forced to vape on unflavored for so long due to my significant other is allergic to fragrances of any sort, I've been moving more and more into vaping unflavored almost 75% of the time, and those flavored liquids I do use I've diluted down with unflavored just for a hint of flavor. Indeed this is a relatively golden age and the the market is very wild and fluid, hard to say where dice will fall in the end, don't think snake eyes are in the roll, the table is balanced between the house "BT/BP/Fed" and the players in this crap shoot, both sides will be giving and taking equitably from what I see.
 

Jman8

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8 - Finally, for those of us who are aware. It is an issue. The latest one. But certainly not the last one.

Quoting myself here cause I don't feel like starting a thread just for this point. I see opposition having gone after 3 of the 4 primary ingredients, possibly all 4. Vapers used to say (routinely) that there are just 4 ingredients to eLiquid: nic, PG, VG, and flavorings.

Pretty sure we all know nic has been attacked (only about 10 million times).
PG attack = it's anti-freeze! Your inhaling anti-freeze!
Flavors = won't anyone think of the kids AND diketones cause popcorn lung (in all of .000000000000000000000003% of the population).
VG attack = ???

And since flavors has at least 2 central attacks so far, plus nic has infinite number of attacks on it, then it is safe to assume that VG and PG are primed for further attacks. Thus, those who might appease opposition by getting rid of flavors, IMO are delusional if they/we think that will stop opposition from 'scientific criticism.'

If we could just make an eLiquid without flavors, nic or PG/VG, then I think opposition would stop opposing vaping. Just kidding, opposition is going to oppose it regardless of the ingredients.
 
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zoiDman

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...

6 - I believe diketones will be allowed in future products up to a point. That limit (number) likely will be made aware to all customers, but the actual amount, I believe won't be or only is a maybe. Even then, who knows how accurate that figure is? My main point is that it will be around, in vape products, for many years to come, regardless of regulation.

...

Why?
 

edyle

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...................

6 - I believe diketones will be allowed in future products up to a point. That limit (number) likely will be made aware to all customers, but the actual amount, I believe won't be or only is a maybe. Even then, who knows how accurate that figure is? My main point is that it will be around, in vape products, for many years to come, regardless of regulation.

..............


with all of that other stuff around it, here's the one part I found that actually began to say anything relevant.

The issue for starter is not if something contains something, but HOW MUCH.
 

skoony

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I have been wondering. Why do they call popcorn lung OB?
"Pneumoconiosis is one of a group of interstitial lung disease caused by breathing in certain kinds of dust particles that damage your lungs.
The disease appears in different forms, depending on the type of dust you inhale. One of the most common forms is black lung disease, also known as miner's lung. It’s caused by breathing in coal dust. Another is brown lung, which comes from working around dust from cotton or other fibers. Other types of dusts that can cause pneumoconiosis include silica and asbestos. Diacetyl, the compound used to give movie popcorn its buttery flavor, also can lead to the disease. This is known as popcorn lung. "
Pneumoconiosis | Johns Hopkins Medicine Health Library

"Pneumoconiosis is one of a group of interstitial lung diseases caused by breathing in certain kinds of dust particles that damage your lungs.
Because you are likely to encounter these dusts only in the workplace, pneumoconiosis is called an occupational lung disease.
The disease appears in different forms, depending on the type of dust you inhale. One of the most common forms is black lung disease, also known as miner's lung. It’s caused by breathing in coal dust. Another is brown lung, which comes from working around dust from cotton or other fibers. Other types of dusts that can cause pneumoconiosis include silica and asbestos. Diacetyl, the compound used to give movie popcorn its buttery flavor, also can lead to the disease. This is known as popcorn lung. "
Pneumoconiosis - Online Medical Encyclopedia - University of Rochester Medical Center
o_O
Mike
 

Jman8

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Cause there's nothing 'substantial' to call for their removal. And cause it's the FDA we're talking about as regulators. And cause the substitutes, as far as I understand (from leaked docs) are as much of a red flag to them. If FDA were to look at currently available data, one might think they'd go with 'safety limit' and just make sure vendors disclose to them (FDA) to establish that their product is under that limit.

Also, my point was partially that outside of regulations, it will be in products available. But main point is that with regulations, it'll be allowed.
 
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bigdancehawk

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[QUOTE="Jman8, post: 17056535, member: 116694"
Just kidding, opposition is going to oppose it regardless of the ingredients.[/QUOTE]

You've undoubtedly correct. It's self delusion to think otherwise. But if only the Jews had worn those yellow stars....oh, yeah I almost forgot.
 
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zoiDman

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Cause there's nothing 'substantial' to call for their removal. And cause it's the FDA we're talking about as regulators. And cause the substitutes, as far as I understand (from leaked docs) are as much of a red flag to them. If FDA were to look at currently available data, one might think they'd go with 'safety limit' and just make sure vendors disclose to them (FDA) to establish that their product is under that limit.

Also, my point was partially that outside of regulations, it will be in products available. But main point is that with regulations, it'll be allowed.

Gotcha... We must be talking about a Different FDA than the one that is going to Regulate e-Liquids.
 

herb

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Just a FWIW, Jman8 as most know all too well has zero issues with diketone's and will go back and forth with anyone who thinks they are a potential concern .

His posts in all the other threads about safety and diketones will reveal this all too well . Not that the OP wants diketones in e juice (not saying he doesn't but can't say for sure) but he will battle you to the death and come up with every possible reason why they are nothing to worry about .

Since it is impossible to say for sure what health consequences will result because the overwhelming majority of vapers have been vaping well under 3 years , in a decade revisit what was said at the time and you will see just how outrageously irresponsible some of these comments turn out to be.

I'm playing it safe and not vaping any e juice with diketones in them because that option is available now and my "basic common sense" tells me it's a no brainer . Why vape something that causes permanent and irreversible lung scarring , no thanks.

Of course the OP will strongly disagree , the OP will be glad to know i am not interested in continuing in a no win argument so this will be my only post in this thread , all i will say is use your "basic common sense" people and the dangers are not just diacetyl , AP and Acetoin scare me even more.
 
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