Diketone thread #411

[roxynoodle]

They may or may not be a health concern.

However, it seems we have at least 10 threads right now about diacetyl. And I wonder if we are contributing to Antz propaganda with so many discussions.

 

[motordude]

Roxynoodle nailed it!

 

[Robert Cromwell]

 

[mattiem]

Diketone thread #411

well shoot, I thought there was only 409 threads before this one.
I must have missed number 410

 

[skoony]

Having found recently sources citing powdered diacetly as causing popcorn lung
I did a little more research. First my apologies to @Lessifer . Diacetyl in its original
form is a liquid.
It can be made into powdered form by encapsulating it into cornstarch. Cornstarch
is a fine white powdery substance with numerous names.
Corn starch, Rice starch, Sorghum gum, α-Starch, Starch gum, Tapioca starch.
CDC - NIOSH Pocket Guide to Chemical Hazards - Starch
Inhalation can lead to the forming eosinophil granulocytes in the lungs.
Lung accumulations of eosinophil granulocytes after exposure to cornstarch glove powder. - PubMed - NCBI
This causes subclinical airway obstruction more associated with air pollution.
Air pollution and subclinical airway inflammation in the SALIA cohort study. - PubMed - NCBI

There seem to be no lasting short term effects and long term are unknown.
here is a typical warning advisory.

Cornstarch EHS / DIY Health and Safety Information / Health and Safety / Households: Safer Cleaning Alternatives / Cleaning Laboratory / Our Work / TURI - TURI - Toxics Use Reduction Institute

Regards
Mike

 

[AndriaD]

Just a FWIW, Jman8 as most know all too well has zero issues with diketone's and will go back and forth with anyone who thinks they are a potential concern .

His posts in all the other threads about safety and diketones will reveal this all too well . Not that the OP wants diketones in e juice (not saying he doesn't but can't say for sure) but he will battle you to the death and come up with every possible reason why they are nothing to worry about .

Since it is impossible to say for sure what health consequences will result because the overwhelming majority of vapers have been vaping well under 3 years , in a decade revisit what was said at the time and you will see just how outrageously irresponsible some of these comments turn out to be.

I'm playing it safe and not vaping any e juice with diketones in them because that option is available now and my "basic common sense" tells me it's a no brainer . Why vape something that causes permanent and irreversible lung scarring , no thanks.

Of course the OP will strongly disagree , the OP will be glad to know i am not interested in continuing in a no win argument so this will be my only post in this thread , all i will say is use your "basic common sense" people and the dangers are not just diacetyl , AP and Acetoin scare me even more.

I'm also playing it safe and not vaping diketones, but why worry about what others do? It's no skin off my nose if others want to vape diketones. Just because one believes a thing, doesn't mean that EVERYONE MUST believe it too -- only control freaks worry that much about the behavior and choices of other people.

Andria

 

[mattiem]

on page 7 of the NOISH pdf document http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/2000-0401-2991.pdf

A powdered butter flavoring was
sometimes used and was measured and poured
into the mixing tank with open containers

so sometime it was in the powdered form but all of this is neither here nor there. The info is out there for those that are concerned and the choices are almost endless.

 

[ReigntheGamer]

Having found recently sources citing powdered diacetly as causing popcorn lung
I did a little more research. First my apologies to @Lessifer . Diacetyl in its original
form is a liquid.
It can be made into powdered form by encapsulating it into cornstarch. Cornstarch
is a fine white powdery substance with numerous names.
Corn starch, Rice starch, Sorghum gum, α-Starch, Starch gum, Tapioca starch.
CDC - NIOSH Pocket Guide to Chemical Hazards - Starch
Inhalation can lead to the forming eosinophil granulocytes in the lungs.
Lung accumulations of eosinophil granulocytes after exposure to cornstarch glove powder. - PubMed - NCBI
This causes subclinical airway obstruction more associated with air pollution.
Air pollution and subclinical airway inflammation in the SALIA cohort study. - PubMed - NCBI

There seem to be no lasting short term effects and long term are unknown.
here is a typical warning advisory.

Cornstarch EHS / DIY Health and Safety Information / Health and Safety / Households: Safer Cleaning Alternatives / Cleaning Laboratory / Our Work / TURI - TURI - Toxics Use Reduction Institute

Regards
Mike

Damn and I just added the cornstarch mixture to my homemade chili. Thanks a lot Skoony.

 

[VNeil]

I'm also playing it safe and not vaping diketones, but why worry about what others do? It's no skin off my nose if others want to vape diketones. Just because one believes a thing, doesn't mean that EVERYONE MUST believe it too -- only control freaks worry that much about the behavior and choices of other people.

Andria

@AndriaD - any thoughts on what I posted here in post#304?

Harvard Eliquid Study Today

 

[DeAnna2112]

I think these threads show that vapers don't have their heads in the sand. Some feel they are harmless, others are concerned they might be harmful, and then there are those who are only concerned with the political grand standing on the topic to the opposition. Whatever one's position, least it shows we are aware of it and care about the wider issues and potential health concerns surrounding the topic.

Just my two cents.....

 

[Lessifer]

Having found recently sources citing powdered diacetly as causing popcorn lung
I did a little more research. First my apologies to @Lessifer . Diacetyl in its original
form is a liquid.
It can be made into powdered form by encapsulating it into cornstarch. Cornstarch
is a fine white powdery substance with numerous names.
Corn starch, Rice starch, Sorghum gum, α-Starch, Starch gum, Tapioca starch.
CDC - NIOSH Pocket Guide to Chemical Hazards - Starch
Inhalation can lead to the forming eosinophil granulocytes in the lungs.
Lung accumulations of eosinophil granulocytes after exposure to cornstarch glove powder. - PubMed - NCBI
This causes subclinical airway obstruction more associated with air pollution.
Air pollution and subclinical airway inflammation in the SALIA cohort study. - PubMed - NCBI

There seem to be no lasting short term effects and long term are unknown.
here is a typical warning advisory.

Cornstarch EHS / DIY Health and Safety Information / Health and Safety / Households: Safer Cleaning Alternatives / Cleaning Laboratory / Our Work / TURI - TURI - Toxics Use Reduction Institute

Regards
Mike

I was in that thread, but I wasn't part of the liquid/powder discussion. I've never looked into the raw state used during manufacturing, I don't think it bears any relevance to the vaping industry, except perhaps in bt cigalike factories. Everyone else might come into contact with it as PART of a flavoring component, even the majority of the juice "manufacturers."

 

[VNeil]

I was in that thread, but I wasn't part of the liquid/powder discussion. I've never looked into the raw state used during manufacturing, I don't think it bears any relevance to the vaping industry, except perhaps in bt cigalike factories. Everyone else might come into contact with it as PART of a flavoring component, even the majority of the juice "manufacturers."

It has a lot of relevance to vaping. Prior to vaping it was considered a hazard only in powdered form, and apparently the popcorn factories had plenty of powdered diacetyl in the air.

It was not until vaping that diacetyl became a hazard in liquid vapor form??????

I think perhaps Skoony's sources need to modify their statements about BO in light of the current political climate

 

[AndriaD]

@AndriaD - any thoughts on what I posted here in post#304?

Harvard Eliquid Study Today

From my post How the media totally exaggerated study on risk of ‘Popcorn Lung’ from e-cigarettes

"...as I've said many times, my own avoidance of diketones isn't because I really believe they're that dangerous; it has more to do with my own health (asthma), my own psyche (hypochondria and anxiety), and the fact that if I was *knowingly* vaping diketones, even the smallest asthma attack could escalate, thx to that hypochondria and anxiety (the latter of which is a big factor with asthma attacks), to something that required hospitalization, which I can't afford. It also has to do with magnitude of possible outcome -- even if it's a 1 in a million chance of lung destruction, I'd rather not go there. 1 in 1000 or 1 in 100 chance of lung irritation -- such as might occur with PG, or flavors in general, or butyric acid -- I'll risk that; irritation is reversible; destruction is not."

Because what I have read regarding butyric acid suggests that in industrial exposures, it *may* be irritating. My own experience with it, in the small quantities present in ejuice, is that it is not, at least, not to me.

Of course, I can vape 84%-85% PG, and it doesn't bother me -- others would find that terribly irritating. Similarly, just because *I* don't find small amounts of butyric acid irritating, doesn't mean that others won't. In the same way, people that don't have asthma would have no reason to have a hypochondriac anxiety attack exacerbating an asthma attack, if they vaped diketones. If someone without asthma experiences shortness of breath with little to no obvious provocation, the best thing they can do is head for a doctor to find out why, because it's not normal for them.

Andria

 

[VNeil]

From my post How the media totally exaggerated study on risk of ‘Popcorn Lung’ from e-cigarettes

"...as I've said many times, my own avoidance of diketones isn't because I really believe they're that dangerous; it has more to do with my own health (asthma), my own psyche (hypochondria and anxiety), and the fact that if I was *knowingly* vaping diketones, even the smallest asthma attack could escalate, thx to that hypochondria and anxiety (the latter of which is a big factor with asthma attacks), to something that required hospitalization, which I can't afford. It also has to do with magnitude of possible outcome -- even if it's a 1 in a million chance of lung destruction, I'd rather not go there. 1 in 1000 or 1 in 100 chance of lung irritation -- such as might occur with PG, or flavors in general, or butyric acid -- I'll risk that; irritation is reversible; destruction is not."

Because what I have read regarding butyric acid suggests that in industrial exposures, it *may* be irritating. My own experience with it, in the small quantities present in ejuice, is that it is not, at least, not to me.

Of course, I can vape 84%-85% PG, and it doesn't bother me -- others would find that terribly irritating. Similarly, just because *I* don't find small amounts of butyric acid irritating, doesn't mean that others won't. In the same way, people that don't have asthma would have no reason to have a hypochondriac anxiety attack exacerbating an asthma attack, if they vaped diketones. If someone without asthma experiences shortness of breath with little to no obvious provocation, the best thing they can do is head for a doctor to find out why, because it's not normal for them.

Andria

I was not aware that your concerns were mostly psychological. Never mind

 

[ckquatt]

I think these threads show that vapers don't have their heads in the sand. Some feel they are harmless, others are concerned they might be harmful, and then there are those who are only concerned with the political grand standing on the topic to the opposition. Whatever one's position, least it shows we are aware of it and care about the wider issues and potential health concerns surrounding the topic.

Just my two cents.....

I don't really know about that. I have been keeping up with the threads but haven't posted due to me not really having an opinion one way or another on the matter. But more to your point: Out of 216 "some odd" thousand members here it's the same 10-15 members talking in all the threads. I wonder just how many actually know, follow or care.

 

[edyle]

Just a FWIW, Jman8 as most know all too well has zero issues with diketone's and will go back and forth with anyone who thinks they are a potential concern .

His posts in all the other threads about safety and diketones will reveal this all too well . Not that the OP wants diketones in e juice (not saying he doesn't but can't say for sure) but he will battle you to the death and come up with every possible reason why they are nothing to worry about .

Since it is impossible to say for sure what health consequences will result because the overwhelming majority of vapers have been vaping well under 3 years , in a decade revisit what was said at the time and you will see just how outrageously irresponsible some of these comments turn out to be.

I'm playing it safe and not vaping any e juice with diketones in them because that option is available now and my "basic common sense" tells me it's a no brainer . Why vape something that causes permanent and irreversible lung scarring , no thanks.

Of course the OP will strongly disagree , the OP will be glad to know i am not interested in continuing in a no win argument so this will be my only post in this thread , all i will say is use your "basic common sense" people and the dangers are not just diacetyl , AP and Acetoin scare me even more.

"I'm playing it safe and not vaping any e juice with diketones in them because that option is available"

Any opinions on what percentage constitutes "no diketones" ?

Perhaps less than 0.5%
or is it more like 0.0005%

 

[Rossum]

Any opinions on what percentage constitutes "no diketones" ?

IMO: Less than 5ppm.

 

[edyle]

IMO: Less than 5ppm.

Ok, 5ppm would be 0.0005%

Now since we vape anywhere in the region of 0 to 2% nicotine and more,
a concern about 0.0005% diketones seems to suggest that diketones are quite toxic!

 

[Rossum]

Uh, you asked what constitutes "None", not what constitutes a "toxic amount".

 

[Rossum]

Also, consider this: Nicotine's "toxic" effects are immediate. Someone who gets an overdose of nic and survives will generally be none the worse for the wear afterward, whereas the effects of diketones are thought to be cumulative over time.