DIY Master Techniques - Flavor Add-on's (EM, VW, BW, MTS, ACV, ect)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Pathogenius

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 27, 2013
75
30
BC
Yep Baxter saline, but a syringe that had been used, flushed with alcohol and distiller water. I will experiment to reproduce the effect in the next few days. It's all very interesting though.

I'm vaping it. Keep in mind I'm on the west coast, and thanks to Fukushima the last thing I'm worried about it what I'm vaping, but most certainly won't be letting anyone else vape anything I make until this mystery is solved.

EDIT: it appears to be happening when the saline mixes with FlavorArt tobaccos, but have yet to attempt reproducing the effect in a controlled manner.

EDIT: The cloudiness in that mix after some steeping is gone now, suggesting that it was the same effect as violently shaking a bottle and making it look cloudy from the air bubbles, except *extremely* tiny air bubbles. This could explain it also in the genesis as well. I'm going to let this rest for now as I'm bored at my own undisciplined speculation... ;-)
 
Last edited:

we2rcool

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 31, 2013
1,179
1,462
Iowa, IA, USA
Pathogenius -

So, how are you using the .9% saline? With vg or pg nic? Ratio of pg to vg? Flavor percentages? Any other additives?

You're obviously quite able to 'fend for yourself' - we're just asking for the benefit of this thread and the hundreds/thousands that will eventually be reading/learning :)

Btw, we rarely vape vendor juices, but I just got some of HHVs Seredipity & Legend (working on a clone). It was "flat", so we injected some saline. 'First thing we noticed was that it appeared cloudy in the tank...something we'd never noticed before, because we mix the saline into a 'VG base' before adding nic & flavors.

Like yours, the cloudiness dissipated after shaking/mixing and sitting a bit. We've never noticed it being cloudy in the syringe.
 

Pathogenius

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 27, 2013
75
30
BC
2cool, I had already loaded a syringe with (FA) tobacco flavor, and then proceeded to continue filling that same syringe with saline. I assume the flavor is pg based.

So nothing else involved but that in said reaction. The first thing that I thought was emulsification, but no can't be.

EDIT: yea see now I may be remembering wrong, the syringe may have been empty at first. As I said I need to reproduce this, it was several hours past my bed time when I posted that and had that effect.
 
Last edited:

buffaloguy

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Feb 22, 2012
1,148
1,167
Buffalo NY
Cite your source cause all the research I have seen says that breakdown does now happen till above 482°F. Please check any available Msds sheet for confirmation of its boiling point in order to activate decomposition of nicotine.

Lets not spread misinformation please.

Also as an aside you can see this thread, read the whole thing. Additional lab tests are coming to confirm the initial findings.

http://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_...a/heat_steeping_and_nicotine_degradation_lab/

Degradation of concentration of nicotine is different than thermal breakdown of nicotine however. Granted Im no chemist but I do look at peoples research.

If that's true, I'll stick with using a UC and temperature control as the majority of DIY'ers here have been doing, and getting awesome results with. Heating Nic above 120 degrees is not a good idea. Unless I missed something and you're talking about 0nic juice. ;)


Sent from the hand not holding my itazte using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

RocketPuppy

Veteran Puppy
ECF Veteran
Dec 19, 2013
1,656
1,661
Bay Area, California, USA
Cite your source cause all the research I have seen says that breakdown does now happen till above 482°F. Please check any available Msds sheet for confirmation of its boiling point in order to activate decomposition of nicotine.

Lets not spread misinformation please.

Also as an aside you can see this thread, read the whole thing. Additional lab tests are coming to confirm the initial findings.

http://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_...a/heat_steeping_and_nicotine_degradation_lab/

Degradation is different than concentration of nicotine however. Granted Im no chemist but I do look at peoples research.

While I love reddit and read it often, it isn't a site that I would use as a definitive answer in explaining scientific analysis, especially when being critical of someone else for their lack of data.

The boiling point of nic is 477 degrees http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9926222, but unfortunately, that doesn't help.

The fact is, research has not been done which quantitatively measures the temperature at which nicotine degrades when in combination with vg and/or pg, even the author of the site posted on reddit explains that.
 

buffaloguy

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Feb 22, 2012
1,148
1,167
Buffalo NY
I agree with you on reddit. Yet, at least this individual is actually having the juice he makes lab tested and confirming some results, even tho there may be room for interpretation or questions about methodology.

Merely the impact of heat on nicotine concentration is minimal, at best. In order for it to thermally decompose and become a harmful component of juice woukd require not only temps far exceeding what vaporizers are capable of. This has been tested before, even on these very forums.

So when its said heating nicotine in ejuice beyond 120°f is dangerous in some way, I do think there needs to be sources cited.

Nothing I have seen is definitive science but I do believe its headed in confirming my thoughts so far on heat only being necessary for steeping.

While I love reddit and read it often, it isn't a site that I would use as a definitive answer in explaining scientific analysis, especially when being critical of someone else for their lack of data.

The boiling point of nic is 477 degrees http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9926222, but unfortunately, that doesn't help.

The fact is, research has not been done which quantitatively measures the temperature at which nicotine degrades when in combination with vg and/or pg, even the author of the site posted on reddit explains that.
 
Last edited:

RocketPuppy

Veteran Puppy
ECF Veteran
Dec 19, 2013
1,656
1,661
Bay Area, California, USA
I agree with you on reddit. Yet, at least this individual is actually having the juice he makes lab tested and confirming some results, even tho there may be room for interpretation or questions about methodology.

Merely the impact of heat on nicotine concentration is minimal, at best. In order for it to thermally decompose and become a harmful component of juice woukd require not only temps far exceeding what vaporizers are capable of. This has been tested before, even on these very forums.

So when its said heating nicotine in ejuice beyond 120°f is dangerous in some way, I do think there needs to be sources cited.

Nothing I have seen is definitive science but I do believe its headed in confirming my thoughts so far on heat only being necessary for steeping.

I agree, and I've also been one to tout that 120 degree notion. It is better though to be safe than sorry, especially when most have us have harmed our lungs long enough with analogs. What she and I were referring to is a claim that's been posted repeatedly, rightly or wrongly. I just didn't like how the comment was said, about citing sources and doing research when reddit was used as factual data. I read the link and it seems like solid info, but that's the problem, it's not complete.

When science isn't there to explain something, we search for other answers, no matter how baseless they may be. We need people to study this, and we need to reply to comments with tact.
 

schizm722

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 8, 2013
83
103
AR USA
Regarding the dry-burning of the Protanks mentioned earlier...

The older (and still circulating/being sold) Protank II's had a rubber insulator that would melt when dry-burning
if you rebuilt the coil using resistance wire. Severe burnt taste & there's no going back unless you replace the insulator.

The last 5 PT II's I've bought have a silicone insulator that doesn't get damaged/burned when dry-burning
after a rebuild with resistance wire.

(older insulator is a yellow natural rubber color - new silicone insulator is clear/opaque)

Just an FYI in case the OP didn't realize they changed the insulators & was rebuilding with only resistance wire.
:)
 

partyannimal

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Oct 22, 2013
1,018
577
Near Jim Thorpe, PA, USA
Cite your source cause all the research I have seen says that breakdown does now happen till above 482°F. Please check any available Msds sheet for confirmation of its boiling point in order to activate decomposition of nicotine.

Lets not spread misinformation please.

Also as an aside you can see this thread, read the whole thing. Additional lab tests are coming to confirm the initial findings.

http://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_...a/heat_steeping_and_nicotine_degradation_lab/

Degradation of concentration of nicotine is different than thermal breakdown of nicotine however. Granted Im no chemist but I do look at peoples research.

I don't believe everything I read online, and rarely spread misinformation. I don't get "examples" or "proof" from people who claim things here, or on other online forums. I was referring to studies I read up on a at http://tobaccodocuments.org. If they're spreading false documental info, I'm sorry. I thought they were a creditable source, besides the fact that there are several members around the forum here who recommend the said temperatures to avoid general juice degradation. I'm not here to make things up and spread rumors. I repeat info to give back to the forum that had already gotten me so far. ;)


Sent from the hand not holding my itazte using Tapatalk
 

buffaloguy

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Feb 22, 2012
1,148
1,167
Buffalo NY
I think maybe you and rocketpuppy are taking my challenge of the info you provided a little too hard. I wasnt attempting to be curt, or rude with asking to cite your sources. Im trying to be factual. I never said I know it all either. What I do know (and I have said in my posts) is the info I have has been tested (to some extent lab analyzed) and is somewhat more credible than heresay even tho more work does need.to be done, its confirming what I have known for two years now. Heat alone works.

Im not a loon guys and gals. Ive been at this a long while and I have done alot of investigation, and continue to do so, on the most effective methods to make great juice.... easily. I have not come across that process easily tho and I share what I can especially in threads like this.

My reason for asking to cite sources on this wasnt about calling anyone out, but rather runs very contrary to everything Ive read on this subject of steeping or heating ejuice.

The long standing concern about whether heat can cause nicotine to weaken concentration is well known. We are finding that it does not, or has a minimal impact at best.

What people confuse is that they believe this means heat causes "nicotine degradation", or that something aweful happens to the juice which could be dangerous in some way. This is misconceptik. Degradation clearly, from all available sources Ive seen, does not happen when low levels of heat is used to steep/cure ejuice.

Dont take it personal. Its about learning and growth, just as much for me as anyone else interested.

Yes, there are many long posts on UC. All Im pointing out is for all their bluster, its not necessary and anyone with good technique can do the same or better results without it. However aill never say something that flies in the face of conventional ideas without being able to back it up. In this case, the evidence needs to grow, but I feel I can.

My own results over two years of making juice also say the same.

I don't believe everything I read online, and rarely spread misinformation. I don't get "examples" or "proof" from people who claim things here, or on other online forums. I was referring to studies I read up on a at Tobacco Documents Online. If they're spreading false documental info, I'm sorry. I thought they were a creditable source, besides the fact that there are several members around the forum here who recommend the said temperatures to avoid general juice degradation. I'm not here to make things up and spread rumors. I repeat info to give back to the forum that had already gotten me so far. ;)


Sent from the hand not holding my itazte using Tapatalk
 

dannyv45

ECF DIY E-Liquid Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 12, 2013
7,739
8,410
New Jersey
www.e-cigarette-forum.com
I think maybe you and rocketpuppy are taking my challenge of the info you provided a little too hard. I wasnt attempting to be curt, or rude with asking to cite your sources. Im trying to be factual. I never said I know it all either. What I do know (and I have said in my posts) is the info I have has been tested (to some extent lab analyzed) and is somewhat more credible than heresay even tho more work does need.to be done, its confirming what I have known for two years now. Heat alone works.

Im not a loon guys and gals. Ive been at this a long while and I have done alot of investigation, and continue to do so, on the most effective methods to make great juice.... easily. I have not come across that process easily tho and I share what I can especially in threads like this.

My reason for asking to cite sources on this wasnt about calling anyone out, but rather runs very contrary to everything Ive read on this subject of steeping or heating ejuice.

The long standing concern about whether heat can cause nicotine to weaken concentration is well known. We are finding that it does not, or has a minimal impact at best.

What people confuse is that they believe this means heat causes "nicotine degradation", or that something aweful happens to the juice which could be dangerous in some way. This is misconceptik. Degradation clearly, from all available sources Ive seen, does not happen when low levels of heat is used to steep/cure ejuice.

Dont take it personal. Its about learning and growth, just as much for me as anyone else interested.

Yes, there are many long posts on UC. All Im pointing out is for all their bluster, its not necessary and anyone with good technique can do the same or better results without it. However aill never say something that flies in the face of conventional ideas without being able to back it up. In this case, the evidence needs to grow, but I feel I can.

My own results over two years of making juice also say the same.

Folks lets play nice now buffaloguy's facts are correct and heat alone will steep juice and will not break down NIC. It takes a lot of heat to break down NIC and by the time it breaks down it's already at it's flash point. SO steeping at low heat is good and UC'ing is also good. The hotter the steep the faster the oxidation. 150f will work and there may be some debate as to if it's good to steep at higher temperatures due to the accelerated oxidation but NIC will not break down at 150F. As far as UC's It's not just the vibration that's causing the juice to steep but the heat the vibration causes is also causing the juice to steep by accelarating the ozidazation of the NIC. No one will debate that natural steeping isn't the best method of steeping but heat and UC's are also effective. If you want some technical information on how heat reacts to NIC read my blogs. It's very technical from a good source and also makes for some interesting reading.


Nicotine, What is it exactly? Part 1


Nicotine, What is it exactly? Part 2
 
Last edited:

RocketPuppy

Veteran Puppy
ECF Veteran
Dec 19, 2013
1,656
1,661
Bay Area, California, USA
buffaloguy's facts are correct and heat alone will steep juice and will not break down NIC. It takes a lot of heat to break down NIC and by the time it breaks down it's already at it's flash point.

I actually appreciate what Buffaloguy just posted, so thank you (I don't actually take much personally unless you tell me my dog has bad manners).

In terms of facts, we don't have them yet. I understand that we've all been doing our own testing and getting results from others and the like, but until there is actual factual scientific data, nothing is fact. Is anyone doing the testing in a clean room or lab? I know mine has thus far been in my kitchen.

Yes. We know at what point nic turns into vapor or when it hits its flash point, but those figures don't take into account pg/vg/flavors/etc, so for now we have to settle on opinion.
 

dannyv45

ECF DIY E-Liquid Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 12, 2013
7,739
8,410
New Jersey
www.e-cigarette-forum.com
Seems 120F is a good point that everyone thus far has agreed on. I've been keeping in that limit since using a UC 9 months ago and it's worked for me and as it works for me that's good enough for me. As far as time my observation in my own experiences say 1 hour = 1 week of steeping..
 

partyannimal

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Oct 22, 2013
1,018
577
Near Jim Thorpe, PA, USA
Folks lets play nice now buffaloguy's facts are correct and heat alone will steep juice and will not break down NIC. It takes a lot of heat to break down NIC and by the time it breaks down it's already at it's flash point. SO steeping at low heat is good and UC'ing is also good. The hotter the steep the faster the oxidation. 150f will work and there may be some debate as to if it's good to steep at higher temperatures due to the accelerated oxidation but NIC will not break down at 150F. As far as UC's It's not just the vibration that's causing the juice to steep but the heat the vibration causes is also causing the juice to steep by accelarating the ozidazation of the NIC. No one will debate that natural steeping isn't the best method of steeping but heat and UC's are also effective. If you want some technical information on how heat reacts to NIC read my blogs. It's very technical from a good source and also makes for some interesting reading.


Nicotine, What is it exactly? Part 1


Nicotine, What is it exactly? Part 2

You've seen me around Danny, I always play nice lol. It was actually your posts about temp that enticed me to search for more info. Unfortunately there's not much out there besides a lot of guessing. The tests I found were on Nic in cigarettes but I figured it was better than relying on a guess. ;)


Sent from the hand not holding my itazte using Tapatalk
 

Pathogenius

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 27, 2013
75
30
BC
The long standing concern about whether heat can cause nicotine to weaken concentration is well known. We are finding that it does not, or has a minimal impact at best.

This perspective does surely challenge another popular one, that being storing nic in the cold to preserve it.

I don't have nic testers myself but would love to find detailed studies about this if anyone knows of such?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread