DIY Master Techniques - Flavor Add-on's (EM, VW, BW, MTS, ACV, ect)

[Blueser]

Hey guys. I've tried to collect some of the awesome tips and tricks on my page.

Did I miss anything?

Very nice, thank you.

Maybe the finding of several members here that differ to that of popular opinion. Some folks have a propencity to offer information they've read as fact.

 

[we2rcool]

Hey guys. I've tried to collect some of the awesome tips and tricks on my page.

Did I miss anything?

It would appear that you've missed reading this thread?

There are many of those "oft repeated guidelines" that cause DIYers to use far more flavoring than necessary - and that are repeated only by those who have never actually used the additives themselves (or are so engrossed in "oft repeated" that they've never attempted to find out if they are true or not). And there are some that are just flat-out wrong (either with misinformation or lack of integral information). One example:

EM is a sweetener also known as Cotton Candy. At low percentages, around 0.5% it adds body, moisture, and reduces sharp notes. It rounds off the flavors, and brings them out a bit. At around 1% it also begins to impart a slight sweetness. At 1-5% it adds sweetness. Above that, typically around 8-10%, it gives off a distinct cotton candy flavor.

TPA/TFA sells this as Cotton Candy.

Those with a strong knowledge/experience base, know that EM is rarely a "sweetener" (it sweetens only when it is sweeter than the flavor/s being used, and that is FAR more uncommon than common). It does add body, fullness/roundness and dulls sharp edges. But it dulls sharp edges because it substantially reduces flavor intensity!

There is no certain percentage where EM begins to impart sweetness. Nothing that is less sweet than "what's in the bottle" can possibly impart sweetness to what's in the bottle. Just because a chemical has a similar taste to cotton candy at certain percentages, doesn't mean it's sweet like real cotton candy. Taste-test real cotton candy next to an EM/cotton candy vape - you'll cringe/grimace at the lack of sweetness in the EM/cotton candy.

With EM, anything over .5% - 1% can & does totally change the nature of the vape/flavors, along with substantially reducing flavor intensity. At 1.5%-2.5%-ish, we distinctinly experience a loss of flavor in whatever we vape for at least an hour or two after vaping the strong EM. And that is something others have reported, as well.

***

As far as saline, what is typically used/sold in the US is .9% sterile saline solution - which is typically labeled for wound/eye irrigation. We use it in ALL our juices, both to enhance flavor and to help hydrate. It seriously reduces the obvious (mouth/sinus/throat) dehydration caused by VG & PG.

If you'll read through the rest of the thread to find the gems from that who have painstakingly & methodically tested the "oft repeated recommendations", you'll have a more solid foundation for your own recommendations.

 

[smitty727]

I too have a drawer full of expensive mods & tanks gathering dust. Never tried a KayFun but I own numerous GGTS's, a GG UFS, several Ody's (short mode & drip mode), an Ithaca and I never use any of them anymore. My favorite setup right now is Ego Twist with a cheap UDI IGO-W RBA on top. I build a fresh coil for it every evening in minutes costing pennies. No more tanks for me, dripping only. I've wiped up too much leaked juice over the years. With the juices I've learned to DIY on this forum and my cheap setup vaping has become a very fun and inexpensive hobby. Plus the juices are tasting better than they ever did and getting better as I learn more. Got a bottle of .9 Saline to be delivered Monday and I'm gonna try the VG only, Nic, Saline, PGA base. I'm having fun!!!

I have a drawer full of SS mods that haven't seen the light of day for at least six months. KayFun and Aqua are the way I've turned. Making some of my early DIY juices taste totally different. Oh and hemp and nothing but hemp. I pull out the used hemp THEN DRY BURN the crud off the coils and dress it up with new hemp .... Heaven! I do that wick change now almost as effortlessly as I used to pull the old cellophane tab off a fresh pack of smokes LOL.

 

[kimber23]

Hi everyone!! I have really enjoyed reading this thread, and I am not done. However, I did want to add something that I have discovered which goes against what a few people have noted. When I make a mix, I find it smooth and delicious right away, as it steeps it gets harsher over time. I am very interested in getting rid of that harshness, and the main reason for me reading this thread. I have asked questions about the harshness in my juices, I have tried "Smooth" by TFA, didn't help. I use EM in small percentages (which I like) but my juice is still a harsh throat hit. I am in the process of switching to all VG except my flavors which are all TFA & a couple Capella. I am just waiting on my all VG nicotine to arrive today. I am also going to purchase the saline & distilled water.

Last night I made a juice with Capella's Strawberry, TFA white chocolate, cotton candy, coconut & honeysuckle, it is delicious and pretty much smooth. I only made 5 ml of it since I am awaiting the new VG Nic. But I guess my question is, does anyone else have the experience of harshness as it steeps as I do, and if so any solutions?

Also, I added 4 drops of bottled water to see if that helped, I have not bought the distilled water yet and really wanted to see if it helped with the dryness, my thoughts on that is: "I think it did" LOL

 

[Hoosier]

Hi everyone!! I have really enjoyed reading this thread, and I am not done. However, I did want to add something that I have discovered which goes against what a few people have noted. When I make a mix, I find it smooth and delicious right away, as it steeps it gets harsher over time. I am very interested in getting rid of that harshness, and the main reason for me reading this thread. I have asked questions about the harshness in my juices, I have tried "Smooth" by TFA, didn't help. I use EM in small percentages (which I like) but my juice is still a harsh throat hit. I am in the process of switching to all VG except my flavors which are all TFA & a couple Capella. I am just waiting on my all VG nicotine to arrive today. I am also going to purchase the saline & distilled water.

Last night I made a juice with Capella's Strawberry, TFA white chocolate, cotton candy, coconut & honeysuckle, it is delicious and pretty much smooth. I only made 5 ml of it since I am awaiting the new VG Nic. But I guess my question is, does anyone else have the experience of harshness as it steeps as I do, and if so any solutions?

Also, I added 4 drops of bottled water to see if that helped, I have not bought the distilled water yet and really wanted to see if it helped with the dryness, my thoughts on that is: "I think it did" LOL

Yep, under my picture is a line, "Blog Entries:" and just to the right is a "3". Click that 3 and then the blog on Flavoring Levels. Sounds like you are slightly over flavorings and all those tricks are just getting in your way.

 

[daath]

It would appear that you've missed reading this thread?

...

If you'll read through the rest of the thread to find the gems from that who have painstakingly & methodically tested the "oft repeated recommendations", you'll have a more solid foundation for your own recommendations.

hahah duly noted - thanks for your comments everyone! It was around 4 am and I really needed to get to bed, so I stopped before finishing the entire thread. I am going to plow through it though!

Thanks again

 

[etherealink]

ACV = Apple Cider Vinegar

Ahhh, very cool. That should give an interesting bite to fruits.

I'll have to try it

 

[we2rcool]

Ahhh, very cool. That should give an interesting bite to fruits.

I'll have to try it

If you add ACV, just be sure to "vape it quick". Adding ACV or lemon juice will temporarily 'pop flavors', but after a few days the flavor intensity starts to lessen - and it will ultimately become less intense than what you started with.

 

[cecsystems]

I use 1, 3, & 6 ml syringe a and only the tiny pipets when I want a "touch" of an additive like koolada or similar.

Check "onestopdiyshop" for some good lab ware.

I ordered some "ORAL" syringes on ebay New Oral Syringe Bottle Press in Adapter Kit | eBay as someone had suggested, as I like heavy VG the larger openings should be just the ticket...

 

[daath]

Buffaloguy said he does his at 150 degrees. General consensus is anything less than 200 will not affect the nicotine. If you are concerned, you can certainly mix your PG/VG/flavoring as a base, heat steep, then add the nic after.

EDIT: this has also been posted before

/u/simpleone234 on reddit crock pot steeped 6 mg/ml juice for 5 hours and had it tested. The result was that the juice was now 5 mg/ml.

 

[dannyv45]

Well then, having been initially convinced that a heated ultrasonic was 'the way to go' for steeping, and having used it for months (each blend getting 4, 30minute sessions with heat around 150 degrees), but finding that MANY juices still need more steeping to finally 'settle in' - we decided to try the "4 hours @ 150" that buffaloguy was kind enough to discover, painstakingly test, and share.

We've just completed almost 7,000ml of various juices (largest size of bottle was 60 mls, so that's a LOT of different flavor combinations - including some tobaccos). And you know what? ALL OF THEM THAT WE'VE MADE BEFORE (many that had to have a couple of weeks after the 2 hours in the ultrasonic) ARE PERFECTLY STEEPED.

We used our food dehydrator set to 150 degrees, and left them in a minimum of 4 1/2 hours, uncapping/burping, recapping, and shaking thoroughly every hour or so. We left them in longer than 4 hours to ensure they actually got 4 hours at the full 150. (EDIT: with a few of them, we weren't able to give up our 'ultrasonic addiction', so a few got 2 hours at 150 in the ultrasonic and the remaining 2 hours in the dehydrator). We're putting that noisy contraption on the back shelf (unless we need to use it 'for heat' over the summer when our dehydrator is busy with garden produce or making herbal concoctions).

buffaloguy, we seriously appreciate all the time & effort you've devoted to testing & posting. This kind of data is exactly what the DIY forum is sorely lacking in, and it's the kind of data that makes ALL the difference to successful, exceptional juices. KUDOS & THANK YOU!



And RobertNC, thank you, TOO (very very much!). We've been sharing this information when we get the time and some folks have been grasping it and using it successfully (well, actually 'not using it' successfully )

Hopefully we can all start copy/pasting this info to the newbies, and we can 'turn the tide' away from all the misinformation, and get folks back to understanding the difference between "oft repeated advice based on nothing but oft repeated advice", and actual testing & validation!

Incredable information right here. Just bookmarked this and several other posts from we2rcool and buffloguy great job and thanks...

 

[we2rcool]

Incredable information right here. Just bookmarked this and several other posts from we2rcool and buffloguy great job and thanks...

You're more than welcome!

'Just wanted to add a quick note on 'further testing'. It seems a couple-three of the tobaccos still needed a few more days to actually 'finish up'. But those were very complex blends, or TFA's Black Honey (which is known to take longer than 4 weeks to finally settle in). Still, to pull off Black Honey in less than a week? Fan-vaping-tastic!

 

[dannyv45]

You're more than welcome!

'Just wanted to add a quick note on 'further testing'. It seems a couple-three of the tobaccos still needed a few more days to actually 'finish up'. But those were very complex blends, or TFA's Black Honey (which is known to take longer than 4 weeks to finally settle in). Still, to pull off Black Honey in less than a week? Fan-vaping-tastic!

TFA's BHT has always been problematic for me and I did find that UC steeping did not do the trick for this one. But I've yet to try UCing that one with higher heat. The key just may be 4 hours @ 150F and 1 week just sitting.

 

[etherealink]

I ordered some "ORAL" syringes on ebay New Oral Syringe Bottle Press in Adapter Kit | eBay as someone had suggested, as I like heavy VG the larger openings should be just the ticket...

I may have to check that out, but even 100% VG in my 1ml (no needle) isn't too bad of a draw.

 

[etherealink]

If you add ACV, just be sure to "vape it quick". Adding ACV or lemon juice will temporarily 'pop flavors', but after a few days the flavor intensity starts to lessen - and it will ultimately become less intense than what you started with.

Interesting, any suggestion on starting %?

 

[Blueser]

Quote Originally Posted by we2rcool
If you add ACV, just be sure to "vape it quick". Adding ACV or lemon juice will temporarily 'pop flavors', but after a few days the flavor intensity starts to lessen - and it will ultimately become less intense than what you started with.

Interesting, any suggestion on starting %?

I'll not pretend to be an expert but the whole idea of this to me seems to fit into the cockamamie category or a whole lot to do about nothing. There is a 3-part UC/Steeping thread from H*ll along with countless other steeping threads. There are varying views on what works and what doesn't, speed steeping vs slow ageing, UC vs heat, additive enhancers vs additive de-enhancers...and here there's a thought that ACV may enhance a mix for a few days and then begins to mute flavor...seems to me there is a conflicting thought process here (temporary pop flavors for a few days vs letting juice steep for full flavor). I think everyone can agree that ageing/steeping juice allows time for the flavors to blend...why is everyone in such a big dam/n hurry.

I've only been mixing my own juice for about 4-5 months...early on I had read to add ACV to my mix, so I ran out and bought a bottle of ACV...I tried it in my mixes for a few weeks....meh...never saw what the big deal was...I've since stopped using it...I guess you need some super-power taste buds to discern the usefulness. Same thing with the UC frenzy, I almost bit but then I'm looking at about 30 bottles of juice of varying flavors, most have been ageing for a month or longer...now I'm in the mind-camp that natural ageing/steeping will trump speed-steeping any day and with all the juice I have to vape, there's no reason to be in such a break-neck hurry...chillin'

 

[dannyv45]

I understand your point but common sense has to rule. There is a diversified group of people here with different tastes and different methods so its only natural for there to be so much conflicting information. It really takes a lot of though to sort this all out. Experience is really the only way to sort it out. There has been some fantastic testing going on by we2rcool and buffloguy so listening to them will get you going in the right direction. There are merits to steeping and I utilize both UC and natural steeping depending on how fast I want results. If I'm testing mixes I opt to UC steep but once my mix is formulated I'll get into a rotational type of mixing allowing mixes to naturally steep. As far as additives I also believed in the old thoughts until testing and other members opinions that make logical sense showed me otherwise and then I adapted. Mixing is an evolution and until you get into your own grove and gain experience there's really no other choice but to depend on the advice of others. But as I so ofter state common sense plays a big part in this process. Common sense thinking could be as simple as if it taste good to me then I'm doing it right and as long as I'm not putting myself in danger I don't care if people are telling me I'm wrong.

 

[Caridwen]

I understand your point but common sense has to rule. There is a diversified group of people here with different tastes and different methods so its only natural for there to be so much conflicting information. It really takes a lot of though to sort this all out. Experience is really the only way to sort it out. There has been some fantastic testing going on by we2rcool and buffloguy so listening to them will get you going in the right direction. There are merits to steeping and I utilize both UC and natural steeping depending on how fast I want results. If I'm testing mixes I opt to UC steep but once my mix is formulated I'll get into a rotational type of mixing allowing mixes to naturally steep. As far as additives I also believed in the old thoughts until testing and other members opinions that make logical sense showed me otherwise and then I adapted. Mixing is an evolution and until you get into your own grove and gain experience there's really no other choice but to depend on the advice of others. But as I so ofter state common sense plays a big part in this process. Common sense thinking could be as simple as if it taste good to me then I'm doing it right and as long as I'm not putting myself in danger I don't care if people are telling me I'm wrong.

Who is doing this 'testing' that you're speaking of? What sort of tests?

 

[dannyv45]

Who is doing this 'testing' that you're speaking of? What sort of tests?

We2rcool and buffaloguy have done some controlled testing on additives and steeping that have changed a lot of my thinking on the way I steep and use additives. You can read about some of there results in the later pages (Last 10 pages or so) of this thread. I've been following We2rcools posts for some time now and his research, testing and conclusions seem very logical and well thought out.

 

[dead not sleeping]

I have a good supply of my faves in stock, so 'speed steeping' is not a concern for me if I time my mixing right. That is a UC's greatest contribution, it does speed things up no doubt. If you gotta have it soon, UC is the way. Since my cheapo UC burned up, I'm chasing a theory I have.

The flavor molecules bond together on a 'lock and key' type of thing using oxygen and hydrogen molecules from the pg to help out. Therefore, I'm thinking that a good mixing is key, getting the molecules as diverse yet as close together as you can so they can bond easier and quicker. Thats what the UC does imo. Simple shaking does not mix the solution like a shaftmix, magmix or UC can, and I don't think that other than adding heat you can rush the chemical 'bonding' of the molecules. I remember in chem class, way way way ago, we added heat to speed the reaction of whatever we were working with. I didn't build my diy magmixer with heat, darn it. Who knew? But, I have possibilities in the diy junk shed.

I just started spinning an RY out last night on my magmixer in a corked flask. Changed it's color overnight, that does not really indicate much, but it smells real good. I'm hoping for a two week process for the tobaccos, my first RY, just shaking the bottle on its own took 4-5 weeks. Thats where I miss my UC, tobaccos take a long time. I'm sure the magmixer works better than just shaking alone, but I don't think it would ever match performance of a UC.

It sure is quiet though, and variable speed so I don't mix a lot of air, if any, into it. Maybe I should? I don't know. The fruits are done awesome in three days. I just started with any tobaccos. After this batch is done I'll magmix up a Black Honey, that one seems to take forever and would be a good experiment. Looking for a good recipe on that one.

I think the 'mix' is a very important factor in all of this. Mixing makes it faster, but only time makes it better imo. I think were chasing something we can't catch, but its fun trying.