DNA250C Replay - what's the big deal?

[Steve Parry]

One thing that does blow its mind is the older "non-resistance" (no such thing) legs they used to use.

And I had just figured out how to pronounce ΣΟΦΙΑ. Damn you, Evolv. My Phiniac tank just can't catch a break.

 

[untar]

I also believe that seasoned TC users won't get as much benefit from replay as the Starbucks Customer crowd

I imagine you could achieve different flavor profiles than pure TC. Eg what happens if you change your draw while recording? It should record the changes and reproduce them even if you draw continuously afterwards.
I think it's a pretty interesting thing to toy with, speaking as someone who only uses TC. It's a bit like playing an instrument ^^ (I may also just have shiny fever)

 

[mikepetro]

I imagine you could achieve different flavor profiles than pure TC. Eg what happens if you change your draw while recording? It should record the changes and reproduce them even if you draw continuously afterwards.
I think it's a pretty interesting thing to toy with, speaking as someone who only uses TC. It's a bit like playing an instrument ^^ (I may also just have shiny fever)

For the TC comfortable crowd, its a nice feature, but not a game changer by any means.

For the flavor crowd, it holds a lot of potential as you can tweak your flavors in.

For the noobs, time will tell. Its not as fiddly as TC, but its still not plug-n-play. A user still has to know enough about wire materials to select a wire that will work. Once they get past that, the learning curve shouldnt be bad. Still not as simple as dialing in a wattage and go..........

 

[untar]

A user still has to know enough about wire materials to select a wire that will work

Afaik Evolv have been speaking to manufacturers about making "replay ready" coils (I think Brandon mentioned it in the DJLSB vid), no idea how successful that was.
For beginners the dry hit protection would probably be the most important part of it but I don't see a beginner getting a dna mod in the first place. There's some rumours about Evolv throwing a beginner device on the market this year though...

 

[ShowerHead]

Makes sense, since Kanthal in wattage mode basically is Replay. Same thing every time. Which leads me back to my point earlier.

The way I see it, Replay for Temp Control vapers is what Variable Wattage was for Variable Voltage vapers.

Kanthal in wattage mode isn't close to same hit every time. It's why I went to TC years back.
I want a very reproducible vape, though I do appreciate the dry coil protection (I often forget to open the JFC).
Wattage, using whatever material, doesn't give me the same hit for an entire drag. TC does.

This means that users who don't use/didn't like/won't learn TC are still going to have to at least consider the use of Nickel, Stainless, Titanium or some other material with a usable temperature coefficient of resistance.

Kanthal and other non-temperature sensitive materials may work, but the users of those will still have something of a learning curve. Certainly not as steep as TC, but not set and forget either.

Perhaps those who swear by the old standby, Kanthal, need to update their kit with some SS. Works a treat. I can find zero reason for the 'But.. Kanthal' crowd.

 

[Coastal Cowboy]

Afaik Evolv have been speaking to manufacturers about making "replay ready" coils (I think Brandon mentioned it in the DJLSB vid), no idea how successful that was.
For beginners the dry hit protection would probably be the most important part of it but I don't see a beginner getting a DNA mod in the first place. There's some rumours about Evolv throwing a beginner device on the market this year though...

Now this would be a winner.

Imagine a new members forum that didn't have 54 messages a day asking about dry hits with their new [insert entry level device name here].

 

[soulseek]

Evolv has adressed the fussy initial setup for TC by including everything on the mod nowadays.

The biggest weakness of TC, the inaccurate/unreliable 510s and atomizers, wasn't Evolv's problem. In fact, they tried to help by releasing the most stable 510 connector out there, at the time.

If you have a wrong baseline reading then the temperature will be off. And if your base resistance keeps fluctuating because of bad design, you will end up again with wrong temperatures.

Replay, I'm assuming, does not care about that baseline reading. However, similarly to TC, it's polling ΔR/t (change in resistance of your coil, as you're heating, per unit time). ΔR/t changes vastly when there is liquid present in the wick or when it's dry. This how they do dry hit prevention in TC and in Replay and why Replay needs a Temperature sensing coil. Where Replay is different and therefore interesting is that it records the Power output for your preferred puff and replicates that every time, with the constraint of ΔR/t so that you don't get dry hits; the baseline reading of your R does not matter.

This distinction is very important because:
a) Your baseline R does not matter. If you're indoors or outdoors it won't matter as much.
b) More importantly, unreliable 510 connections from the connector or the atomiser won't break your experience because it is the change in R that matters and not the initial reading.

What this means is that the possible points for Replay to fail are far fewer than TC.
These distinctions and the fact that most users are still using Wattage mode is why Evolv believes it will be an easy way to get people to use Replay and the benefits, once you've used it, are obvious.

 

[mikepetro]

^^^^^^^
He hit the nail on the head!

 

[Steve Parry]

Wattage, using whatever material, doesn't give me the same hit for an entire drag. TC does.

With all due respect, that's absurd. It's in temp mode that the mod raises and lowers power in an attempt to keep you at the set temp, not power mode. I can fell that kicking on and off in the vape. And to minimize that as much as possible you have to play with... your wattage settings.

Temp mode gives you a more consistent temperature, there's no arguing that, but it's a much less consistent hit.

Perhaps those who swear by the old standby, Kanthal, need to update their kit with some SS. Works a treat. I can find zero reason for the 'But.. Kanthal' crowd.

I like Kanthal better. That's a good enough reason for me. I've got a roll of SS sitting here largely unused. I played with it, had some fun, then went back to the good old Kanthal.

I get that you like what you like, and I'm glad that you found what works for you. Those of us who like something different don't "need to update" to whatever you like. We have the same option to vape what we enjoy that you do.

 

[untar]

Of course everybody can vape what they like best, that's the whole point of having more options to choose from.
The more options the more satisfied vapers. I know guys who swear by some special gardening string or silicate as a wick and vape on Bully attys even today, who wants to tell them they're doing it wrong?
If you like Kanthal, vape Kanthal, if you like variable voltage, vape variable voltage, if you like ego batteries and cartomizers then vape that.

I can fell that kicking on and off in the vape. And to minimize that as much as possible you have to play with... your wattage settings.

I disagree with this though, in my experience with a good TC mod with correctly set up wick/coil you don't feel anything changing, that would go on my nerves and I wouldn't bother with TC at all. Wattage also only should affect the rampup time in TC, nothing else.

Only ever had a miserable TC vape exactly like you describe it with SMOK's TC, no matter what I did I could feel a strong pulsing and the wattage setting was crucial to even get a halfway decent vape (still garbage though).

Not getting any of this crap from geekvape, tesla, joyetech or evolv mods, just a nice homogenous draw.

 

[ilporcupine]

The reason that mixed wires like Kanthal and SS coils will work in replay is because when the resistance is measured (live ohms), what it will see is the lowest resistance. The measured resistance of multiple resistors in parallel will be equal to the lowest resistor in the group. In this case it is seeing the resistance of the SS and isnt even aware of the Kanthal. The resistance of the SS changes enough for it to do its thing.

Remember, it is not trying to hit a "temp" in replay, it is more/less duplicating the live resistance curve of the seed hit.

Suggest re-reading the formula for resistances in parallel, this is incorrect.

 

[Coastal Cowboy]

If you have a wrong baseline reading then the temperature will be off. And if your base resistance keeps fluctuating because of bad design, you will end up again with wrong temperatures.

Replay, I'm assuming, does not care about that baseline reading. However, similarly to TC, it's polling ΔR/t (change in resistance of your coil, as you're heating, per unit time). ΔR/t changes vastly when there is liquid present in the wick or when it's dry. This how they do dry hit prevention in TC and in Replay and why Replay needs a Temperature sensing coil. Where Replay is different and therefore interesting is that it records the Power output for your preferred puff and replicates that every time, with the constraint of ΔR/t so that you don't get dry hits; the baseline reading of your R does not matter.

Be it TC or Replay, the thing is that we're dealing with a model of a real world phenomenon. The model is a mathematical relationship between at least one dependent variable and at least one independent variable.

Here's a simple univariate model where there is one dependent variable whose change in value depends on the change in the independent variable. Dependent variables are always measured by the vertical axis; independent always on the horizontal.

Say this is the TC model. Temp is x (horizontal) and Resistance is y (vertical).

In order for TC to work as designed, two parameters have to be reasonably accurate. The value of y at the beginning of the red line and the value that represents the change in the slope of the red line.

We call the first parameter the intercept because it's the point where the red line intercepts the y axis. We call the second parameter the coefficient because it's the measure of change in y given a change in x.

In TC, starting resistance is the intercept and the coefficient is TCR.

All models have to be calibrated, which means their model runs have to be compared to their real world phenomenon and adjusted until the model models reality.

There are two ways to calibrate the model. One is changing the intercept. Two is changing the coefficient. In some realities changing the intercept (starting resistance)
for the model is enough to produce acceptable results if you are sure the coefficient is accurate. In others (complex, multi-wire builds) that's not enough and the TCR has to be changed. In really fun situations both need modification.

As I am beginning to understand Replay, the user turns the feature on and takes a big ol' puff. If she likes it, she saves it so she can do it the same way again. If she doesn't quite like it, she makes a change to the settings and tries another big ol' puff. Lathers, rinses and repeats until it's Goldilocks.

Replay is still a model, and it is still a TC model. But, it's a model based on sampling some data from the real world, storing those data and using them to create a close approximation of the perfect puff again and again. The user doesn't need to understand TC. He only needs a TC-capable material in his build.

He can try it with build of "dubious" temperature sensitivity, but his results will likely be less than optimal because the model depends on temperature sensitivity in the build materials.

The less temperature sensitive the build material, the less likely Replay is to work.

Again this is how I'm beginning to understand it.

 

[Coastal Cowboy]

Temp mode gives you a more consistent temperature, there's no arguing that, but it's a much less consistent hit.

This depends on how the mod manages temperature. Some mods are better at it than others. A consistent hit is felt when there's little temperature variation from the set temp, up or down. The temp curve for a mod that does it well is tight around the set value. One that does it poorly will have a curve that's everywhere

I disagree with this though, in my experience with a good TC mod with correctly set up wick/coil you don't feel anything changing, that would go on my nerves and I wouldn't bother with TC at all. Wattage also only should affect the rampup time in TC, nothing else.

Only ever had a miserable TC vape exactly like you describe it with SMOK's TC, no matter what I did I could feel a strong pulsing and the wattage setting was crucial to even get a halfway decent vape (still garbage though).

The only times I've been disappointed in a TC vape is when I did something wrong with the intercept, the coefficient, or both. Or when the mod couldn't do TC right no matter how it was set up. i.e., Smok Alien.

 

[mikepetro]

Suggest re-reading the formula for resistances in parallel, this is incorrect.

Uggggh, you are correct Sir.
All I can say is ....

 

[Steve Parry]

I disagree with this though, in my experience with a good TC mod with correctly set up wick/coil you don't feel anything changing, that would go on my nerves and I wouldn't bother with TC at all. Wattage also only should affect the rampup time in TC, nothing else.

Do this. Set your mod to 500 degrees at 10 watts. Your coil won't get to 500 in this setting, right? This is my point. There is a setting where your temp setting and wattage setting will meet without going over the set temp but getting close to it. That is going to be your best setting for consistency.

You can tell me that you don't feel the TC kick in, and good for you. I feel it. I've watch Busardo review DNA mods where he says he feels it. If some folks are sensitive to it and others aren't, I can accept that.

Here's the thing though. I'm looking at my Asmodus screen right now with the Squape R attached. Single Kanthal coil, .86 ohms, set at 23 watts. I hit the fire button and hold it 10 seconds, watching the screen. It fires at 4.4 volts for 8 seconds, drops to 4.2 for two seconds, then it reaches cutoff. Can you hold your fire button for 10 seconds and honestly tell me you get that consistent of a result in TC mode?

If you like the vape you get in TC better, I understand and respect that. If you can't feel the mod ramping up and down, I understand and respect that. The fact of the matter is, however, that temp control is based on inconsistency. It needs a wire that isn't consistent in it's resistance, and it needs to be inconsistent in the amount of power it sends to that inconsistent coil in order to work. With Kanthal in power mode, your resistance stays the same, therefore you need a consistent amount of power to get to the desired wattage. It's based on consistency.

For our purposes, "consistency" is neither good nor bad. It just is. You might prefer TC, I myself prefer power. That has no bearing on which one is more consistent, and it's laughable to me to imply that TC is more consistent. On temperature? Sure. On the whole? Not even close.

 

[ShowerHead]

With all due respect, that's absurd. It's in temp mode that the mod raises and lowers power in an attempt to keep you at the set temp, not power mode. I can fell that kicking on and off in the vape. And to minimize that as much as possible you have to play with... your wattage settings.

Temp mode gives you a more consistent temperature, there's no arguing that, but it's a much less consistent hit.

Perhaps you mistake gradual heating higher and higher for consistent.
Wattage applies the same power for however long you can stand to vape it.
TC controls the power to give me the same vape time after time, tank after tank.

I like Kanthal better. That's a good enough reason for me. I've got a roll of SS sitting here largely unused. I played with it, had some fun, then went back to the good old Kanthal.

I get that you like what you like, and I'm glad that you found what works for you. Those of us who like something different don't "need to update" to whatever you like. We have the same option to vape what we enjoy that you do.

I still laugh.
But.. Kanthal! This won't work with Kanthal!

Do this. Set your mod to 500 degrees at 10 watts. Your coil won't get to 500 in this setting, right? This is my point. There is a setting where your temp setting and wattage setting will meet without going over the set temp but getting close to it. That is going to be your best setting for consistency.

You can tell me that you don't feel the TC kick in, and good for you. I feel it. I've watch Busardo review DNA mods where he says he feels it. If some folks are sensitive to it and others aren't, I can accept that.

Here's the thing though. I'm looking at my Asmodus screen right now with the Squape R attached. Single Kanthal coil, .86 ohms, set at 23 watts. I hit the fire button and hold it 10 seconds, watching the screen. It fires at 4.4 volts for 8 seconds, drops to 4.2 for two seconds, then it reaches cutoff. Can you hold your fire button for 10 seconds and honestly tell me you get that consistent of a result in TC mode?

If you like the vape you get in TC better, I understand and respect that. If you can't feel the mod ramping up and down, I understand and respect that. The fact of the matter is, however, that temp control is based on inconsistency. It needs a wire that isn't consistent in it's resistance, and it needs to be inconsistent in the amount of power it sends to that inconsistent coil in order to work. With Kanthal in power mode, your resistance stays the same, therefore you need a consistent amount of power to get to the desired wattage. It's based on consistency.

For our purposes, "consistency" is neither good nor bad. It just is. You might prefer TC, I myself prefer power. That has no bearing on which one is more consistent, and it's laughable to me to imply that TC is more consistent. On temperature? Sure. On the whole? Not even close.

So, your point is to set a TC mod to some pair that won't produce vapor? Why?
Every coil has a setting where it is happy. Once I find that, presto! No hotter and hotter vapor, no 'Oops, forgot to open the JFC again'. I even get a little help with the battery as the power delivered to the coil will be lower for the same length hit.

Nice try with the power staying the same in power mode. Too bad that I don't vape the delivered power, it's the vapor that matters. The vapor stays the same for the entire vape, and no, I haven't felt the the TC kick in. What would I look for?

Here's my mod doing a 10 second hit. Red=Temp, Green=Watts, Yellow=Amps.
You're telling me that your power mode vapor will be the same at second 10 as second 2?
Naaah, sorry, I'm just not buying it.

 

[Coastal Cowboy]

@Steve Parry, I think you're missing the roles that juice and airflow play in what you get out of either a power or a TC vape. The flow of air and the flow of juice both act as cooling mechanisms on the build.

1. Set power way, way too high and you will get a burnt hit. This is true regardless of how much air a human user can pull across the build.

2. There is no such animal as too high of an initial wattage in temp control. Once the build resistance reaches the level that the model says "this is set temp," the wattage setting is irrelevant. This is why you should always set a starting TC wattage well north of what you'd use in power mode.

TC (and Replay, presumably) don't care how much juice or air is flowing. Its job is to rapidly measure resistance, rapidly compute temperature and rapidly apply the appropriate voltage. Juice and air serve to moderate temperature change so achieving set temperature in a TC vape might mean more power is needed than what would be used in power mode.

In your example, the 8 seconds of 4.4v followed by 2 seconds of 4.2v could conceivably cause the build and wick to reach the wick's ignition point with no flow of juice and no airflow. Maybe not your 0.86 build, but a different one, yeah. That would not happen in a properly calibrated TC model.

It might not happen in Replay either, if Replay gets lucky and hits the right vape on a "dubious" material.

 

[Coastal Cowboy]

Perhaps you mistake gradual heating higher and higher for consistent.
Wattage applies the same power for however long you can stand to vape it.
TC controls the power to give me the same vape time after time, tank after tank.



I still laugh.
But.. Kanthal! This won't work with Kanthal!



So, your point is to set a TC mod to some pair that won't produce vapor? Why?
Every coil has a setting where it is happy. Once I find that, presto! No hotter and hotter vapor, no 'Oops, forgot to open the JFC again'. I even get a little help with the battery as the power delivered to the coil will be lower for the same length hit.

Nice try with the power staying the same in power mode. Too bad that I don't vape the delivered power, it's the vapor that matters. The vapor stays the same for the entire vape, and no, I haven't felt the the TC kick in. What would I look for?

Here's my mod doing a 10 second hit. Red=Temp, Green=Watts, Yellow=Amps.
You're telling me that your power mode vapor will be the same at second 10 as second 2?
Naaah, sorry, I'm just not buying it.

View attachment 734999

That plot looks very much like one I did a few months back. I was using NFE Tool's Device Monitor with an Eleaf Ikonn 220 with a Moonshot 24 RTA.

I was monitoring because I noticed that the power needed to maintain the set temp was much lower than I thought it should have been and my vapor was weak. I thought the mods TC was broken. In truth, I had way too much wick in the coils which was choking off juice flow, raising temperature and reducing vapor volume. TC was doing it's job. Had I tried that build and wicking job in power mode at the level I expected, it would have burned.

 

[ilporcupine]

If you like the vape you get in TC better, I understand and respect that. If you can't feel the mod ramping up and down, I understand and respect that.

Hi, Steve. I'm a newb here, and I don't own any of these devices, so I don't have a dog in this hunt currently. I am somewhat knowledgeable about electricity.
When you and others say you "feel the mod ramping up and down", where do you feel it? In your arm or leg? Seat of your pants? In the temp of the vapor you get? Help me to understand. EDIT- Sorry that sounds kinda smartass, wasn't intended to. It reflects my frustration as a new guy trying to figure out what you guy are talking about....
Thanks.

 

[Steve Parry]

I still laugh.
But.. Kanthal! This won't work with Kanthal!

Most people don't want it to work. That's what you're missing. That's why 70% of DNA owners don't use TC. I'm one of those.