ECA Misinformation

[radiokaos]

Doing a study like njoy completed is just opinion and not fact.

You will need to take into account other E-cigs that don't have sensors. Like the 510, and some of the USB passes.

Also the amount of nicotine even with the same unit is absorbed differently with each subject. For example, some will do a primer puff and still absorb some through the mucosa membranes of the mouth. Some might hold the vaper longer then others. There are too many variables to nail down on this subject.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

Sounds good - separate for 0 nic users. Would be nice to know what % use 0 nic too (majority of or all the time?). Would be interesting to compare figures. An independent survey conducted on random people would be best but vaping is too new to be able to do that; and habits change from when something is new to being settled sometime later. Some information is better than none. But if you ask me - i really would be making a bit of a guess, and that's not ideal.

Thank you for your input. I will think of how to word this properly and put it up sometime later this week. I would definitely want people to try their best to spend one day gauging their puffs.

There are sooo many factors to consider. Even a scientific study done in a clinical setting over the course of a day would be yield weird results because the situation alone would cause a change in vaping habits, even from users who are pretty well set in their eSmoking ways. I know I would eSmoke more nicotine and have more puffs locked in a room all day.

Edit: Radio - Good points on the nicotine consumptions... I think Kate touched on this elsewhere... you would have to do blood tests for this? Correct?

 

[Krakkan]

I asked a simple question fifteen days ago and I know I'm not the only one concerned about not having any answer about what you are saying on our behalf.

See this as troublemaking if you like but I see the ECA as totally unreasonable for letting this go on for so long. I may inconvenience you but if it encourages honesty and transparency then you can call me whatever you like.

Don't tell me what to spend my time and energy on either, I bet I could put you to shame if we added up karma.

EDIT

Apologies, it wasn't fifteen days ago that I asked about this, it was on the fifth - twelve days ago.

Wow low blow there Kate I do think when it comes to Karma I am very much in the plus I do for many many people and am a activist in and outside of my business as well.

So please never try to martyr yourself as my comments were not personal just an observation of the time you spent here arguing when there are better things WE ALL COULD BE DOING in my opinion. But take it as you will was just an opinion.


Regards,

JD Henry

 

[Krakkan]

I do want to say I respect you Kate and understand what you are saying but at the same time feel it is not that big of deal at this juncture but like I said is purely my opinion.

 

[stevejo]

So... now that I've wasted a bit reading people arguing on another thread... think I may go write some letters or something... *wink *wink

/hugs

Steve

 

[Krakkan]

So... now that I've wasted a bit reading people arguing on another thread... think I may go write some letters or something... *wink *wink

/hugs

Steve

Kate is very passionate she always has been. I read her posts when I was just starting out as well she is a wealth of knowledge I guess sometimes people just disagree on things. But yes get out there and make your voice heard. If need help let me know PM me your location etc and Ill help you look up your local representatives if need help.


JD

 

[stevejo]

Kate is very passionate she always has been. I read her posts when I was just starting out as well she is a wealth of knowledge I guess sometimes people just disagree on things. But yes get out there and make your voice heard. If need help let me know PM me your location etc and Ill help you look up your local representatives if need help.


JD

Appreciate it Krakkan I'm fortunate enough to live in a state where my reps list is pretty short, and all of our guys prolly know me by name now. I was just making the point of using time more wisely.

I concur that Kate is very passionate about what she does, and in fact I owe my account over at RTV to her. I mean no disrespect to anyone here by my post, I just cry a little inside when I see the passionate arguments that perhaps use energy better spent elsewhere.

Steve

 

[Kate51]

These threads might help with future information:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/for...suppliers.html

Myths about liquid nicotine and delivery devices - *E-Cigtest, the ultimate electronic cigarettes review site* - Le site de la cigarette électronique

THANKS for these, Kate, big hand to you, don't let those ____'s get to you.

 

[Kate51]

I get the feeling that this is more to do with politics than trying to be helpful for vapers.

The ECA appear to have appointed themselves as our political representatives and seem to want to address every potentially negative argument that might be directed at us - in this case "People consume too much nicotine with electronic cigarettes because there is no governor."

The fact is that we have no reliable measurements to counter that view so something seems to have been conveniently invented.

Is this just a case of political spin?

Agreed. To make a point, this is exactly what we do not need, another BIG BROTHER.....come on, misrepresenting fact to make a reasonable-sounding argument at this juncture is not helpful at all.

BETTER TO REMAIN SILENT AND BE THOUGHT A FOOL THAN TO SPEAK AND REMOVE ALL DOUBT

 

[Kate]

Myth: People consume too much nicotine with electronic cigarettes because there is no governor.
Fact: The amount of nicotine in electronic cigarettes is much less than other OTC products.

Tobacco cigarettes and smoking cessation products, like electronic cigarettes and many other non-smoking-related products, rely on consumers to regulate their consumption and use according to manufacturer labeling. No one can control the misuse of products when directions are not followed.

That said, the intake of nicotine from electronic cigarettes appears to be substantially less than acceptable standards already in the marketplace. For instance, the consumption of a tobacco cigarette delivers about 1-1.5 mg of nicotine; with the average US smoker consuming 13.9 cigarettes per day, they consume 14-21 mg of nicotine per day. Depending on the smoking cessation product, labeling suggests consumption of 6-48 mg of nicotine per day.

By comparison, an electronic cigarette cartridge, depending on manufacturer and cartridge style, produces 0-16 mgs of nicotine when fully consumed by approximately 300 puffs. A recent industry study indicates the average electronic cigarette user takes 62.8 puffs per day. This suggests the average electronic cigarette smoker is consuming 3.36 mg of nicotine per day, far less than that typically consumed when using tobacco cigarettes or smoking cessation products.

Electronic Cigarette Myths and Facts | Electronic Cigarette Association

Do the figures that apparently came from Njoy customers make this statement true and accurate?

I don't see why you need to make personal attacks Krakkan, I think this is important, you may not but we all have our own priorities and nobody is forcing you to participate.

You've made public statements and are presenting yourselves as representatives of the vaping community, now you're basically saying the rest of us can shut up if we don't like what you're saying for us. That makes me uncomfortable and I'd rather that you didn't say anything than to set us up to look like manipulative, delusional idiots.

EDIT to add:

Lacey, if you really want to represent us and think forum polls have any validity then ignoring the results of these two doesn't add up:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...cussion/2817-how-much-eliquid-do-you-use.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/6525-draws-puffs-per-ml.html

I've had enough of this rubbish, facts are whatever you feel like presenting. This is my last post in this thread.

 

[kinabaloo]

Seems to me that using a puff as the basis for measurement is a poor choice; it can vary so widely; perhaps more so with vaping that analogs. For what it's worth I would estimate the average of the ECF poll at about 120 puffs per day (1/2 respondents said <60/ml and typical consumpton is around 2ml).

The amount of juice consumed is much more accurately known by users and is a far better measure than puffs. We know this is about 2ml on average. Assuming a juice of 16mg/ml, this gives 32mg/day, above the figure for analogs. But this would be ignoring wastage (when cart filler is chucked away, atomizers drained at night, etc. I suspect people overreport their usage a little bit too, if only because of the tendency to 'round-up'. So I'd say the figures of nicotine consumption for analogs and vaping is on average (something rather nebulous anyway) about the same.

Although juices are available at up to 48mg/ml, these are nearly always bought to be 'cut'; the 48mg/ml being quite rare and 36mg/ml being the one commonly bought for the purposes of saving money by cutting it 50/50 with VG.

In the vaping world there are many who use low nic juices, if not initially then at some time cut the nic content of their juice. Taking this into account the average could come down to a figure lower than for analogs.

So no surprises - people who have been addicted to nicotine choose to dose theselves at about the same level that they were used to when switch to vaping.

However, many do then begin both vaping less (enjoy not having to finish off a fast burning analog) and move to lower strength juices; even if not intending/wanting to quit (simply come to prefer the lower dose).

So seems to me that 1) vapers consume no more than analog smokers; 2) vapers often reduce their intake over time through their own choice (and find it easy); sometimes to zero nicotine. Not claiming anything scientific here (despite a little maths), but that's the picture i get from having read 100s of posts.

edit (add): And if my estimate for number of puffs is about right, it's almost the same as for analogs (13.6 cigs/day x 8 or 9 puffs per cig). Again, no surprise I think; we are talking about habit so it is likely to be about the same for that very reason.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

Kinabaloo -

Kate and I went through this idea of ml vs. puffs a few months back and I can tell you this... whether we as users like it or not, the FDA is looking at puffs as the measurement for dosage. Whether we choose to use more puffs than the eventual "recommended daily amount" (if it goes pharmaceutical) will be us using the product off label.

However, all of your assessments make complete sense... And your assumptions 1 & 2 are the same that I assume.

Kate - Sorry we couldn't make you happy with the data provided. It is a valid survey.

 

[ladyraj]

OK, I'll bite: If there are no governors regulating intake from normal cigarettes why would you need a regulator in an e-cig unless it were to regulate a drug??? In an analogue, the smoker will adjust the intake of nicotine, some high, some low. It's common sense not to eat a pack of cigarettes just as you wouldn't eat the carts. So are you gathering info for future medical grade nicotine, or looking to frame the e-cig as a smoking alternative?

 

[TropicalBob]

Although puffs per cigarette varies from smoker to smoker, the accepted average is 10. Ten puffs per cigarette.

A pack-a-day smoker thus inhales 200 puffs per day. I did 30 cigs per day -- 300 puffs.

Now, we have clinical tests that show e-liquid delivers less nicotine per puff than tobacco cigarettes. Much, much less. And we know that many e-cig users try to keep nicotine cravings at bay by using their e-cig. With less nicotine per puff being inhaled, is it logical that an e-smoker would inhale the equivilant of only six tobacco cigarettes per day? I think not.

Realistically, the average will be far higher than 62 puffs. Because the e-cig user is obtaining less nicotine per puff, the e-cig user would have a tendency to inhale even more puffs than they would take from their favorite Marlboro. Somewhere north of 300, I'd guess.

I know I do more than 300 puffs a day because I've been using the e-cig virtually non-stop, unlike the 30 minute separation of tobacco cigarette smoking.

I won't get into nicotine equivilance because it doesn't work for me and I rely on snus. With vaping, I use one to two ml of e-liquid per day, averaging about 16mg per ml. In theory, I'm getting the nicotine I used to get from tobacco. That would be 32mg of nicotine per day, consumed in 300 puffs. It's a long way from 62.

The bottom line is that I too find the 62 puffs per day laughable. I don't think it's in any way a purposeful distortion. It's just .. not logical and likely dead wrong.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

OK, I'll bite: If there are no governors regulating intake from normal cigarettes why would you need a regulator in an e-cig unless it were to regulate a drug??? In an analogue, the smoker will adjust the intake of nicotine, some high, some low. It's common sense not to eat a pack of cigarettes just as you wouldn't eat the carts. So are you gathering info for future medical grade nicotine, or looking to frame the e-cig as a smoking alternative?

Are you asking me?

Sorry... but to answer if you are... we aren't looking for a governor. There shouldn't be one required until tobacco cigarettes are required to have a governor.

The e-cig is a smoking alternative. The Fact/Myth that was being discussed is disagreement over the puffs of the average user.

Personally, I have a very hard time believing that nicotine overdose is a reasonable concern to a smoker, who would be the proper user in this case. And nicotine overdose in this case would mean head rush, ........, shakiness, increased heart beat, etc. In completely rare cases you could have death, but the rarity of that would have to have all of the medical stars aligned.

Yes, right out of the basket it could be difficult to gauge where you should with your mg/ml liquid... however, most smokers come with an automatic shut-off valve when they know they have had too much.

 

[ladyraj]

Are you asking me?

Yes, right out of the basket it could be difficult to gauge where you should with your mg/ml liquid... however, most smokers come with an automatic shut-off valve when they know they have had too much.

Thanks for your reply, But it seems the argument of intake is a moot point unless you're gathering information for metered doses for a medical device. Forgive the intrusion, I was just curious and the query was general. I'm new to this forum and vaping. Carry on...

 

[LaceyUnderall]

Thanks for your reply, But it seems the argument of intake is a moot point unless you're gathering information for metered doses for a medical device. Forgive the intrusion, I was just curious and the query was general. I'm new to this forum and vaping. Carry on...

Agreed. It IS a moot point considering you could sit and smoke 4 packs of cigs in one day.

 

[Ivisi]

To tell you the truth, it makes much more sense to point out that every other nicotine product on the market doesn't have a governor on it, and also point out the study that shows a single puff on an e-cig contains on average less nicotine than an equivalent puff on a tobacco cigarette. Average puffs per day just doesn't cut it for me, as that is a variable that really can't be truly defined.

Ivisi

 

[LaceyUnderall]

To tell you the truth, it makes much more sense to point out that every other nicotine product on the market doesn't have a governor on it, and also point out the study that shows a single puff on an e-cig contains on average less nicotine than an equivalent puff on a tobacco cigarette. Average puffs per day just doesn't cut it for me, as that is a variable that really can't be truly defined.

Ivisi

Excellent point.

 

[Letzin Hale]

From all of this discussion, I am thinking of starting a poll here on the forum. All those who have participated in this thread, would hopefully be interested in participating? I would use the same thresholds as listed in the original survey.

The other thing that is hard to gauge is this: Since I have switched to no-nicotine for most of the day, I eSmoke way more than when I did with nicotine. Any suggestions? Should I offer another answer for 0 nic vapers so their statistic would be off to the side of the final puffs (since 0 nic vapers aren't getting any nicotine anyways)?

Since going zero I use mine much less, so there is definitely room for study.
Alan.