Factors on a RTA that decide over taste?

[Letitia]

I, for one, am so glad you started this conversation because I was thinking of doing the same thing. Every variable you mentioned.....How about the coil closer to your mouth gives better flavor? Will an engineer trained in air velocity please explain this "fact" to me? If that's the case, why do my long chimney, KFLs give me intense flavor like no other shortie does? Now, if we're discussing RDAs, that's a different animal but this is an rta thread. I could go on but flexy already covered it. I'm tired of the BS that some reviewers feed their audience. Some even contradict themselves from video to video. I have heard one reviewer explain that the longer, thinner chimney concentrates the flavor making it more intense. Then turn around while reviewing a different rta and say that because the coil is close to your mouth the flavor is better. You can't have it both ways. There are more variables involved and I'd like to hear reviewers explain them correctly. Maybe we can use this thread to get into those variables and put this baby to bed.

Respectfully I believe that you can have it both ways. The dvarw and newer gear rtas prove it imo. Both provide very good flavor yet one has a tall chimney and the other is just plain stumpy. I don't pretend to understand why both are equally flavorful but accept that it's possible.

 

[muth]

Fundamentally an RTA is just an RDA immersed in a tank, so I think we can lump them together.

I have to respectfully disagree on the matter of air pressure being a factor in RTAs vs RDAs not having/needing air pressure to perform properly. I don't think (IMHO) that they can simply be lumped together. Get your wicking wrong and you end up with dry hits (never an issue with RDAs unless you forget to drip, lol) or flooding. But since flexy123 named this thread based on factors of an RTA, I hesitate to pursue the matter.

 

[muth]

Respectfully I believe that you can have it both ways. The dvarw and newer gear rtas prove it imo. Both provide very good flavor yet one has a tall chimney and the other is just plain stumpy. I don't pretend to understand why both are equally flavorful but accept that it's possible.

I did expound more on that matter, later on, talking about the particular designs of shorter tanks and the builds and other factors related to those designs. At least, I thought I did. My bottom line answer to flexy's comment was that, in my experience, even if the flavor between a shortie and a long chimney were comparable, the vape is experienced differently. It feels different, it hits the mouth differently. It....like you said, is hard to understand or explain unless you've experienced both.

 

[muth]

@Letitia I remember what I was saying in that reply. It was a comment about how reviewers don't articulate the nuances. They simply say the coil is close to your mouth, therefore you get good flavor. Then they'll say the chimney is long, condensing the flavor and making it more intense. It confuses viewers because they don't explain anything about why you can have it both ways.

 

[Letitia]

I did expound more on that matter, later on, talking about the particular designs of shorter tanks and the builds and other factors related to those designs. At least, I thought I did. My bottom line answer to flexy's comment was that, in my experience, even if the flavor between a shortie and a long chimney were comparable, the vape is experienced differently. It feels different, it hits the mouth differently. It....like you said, is hard to understand or explain unless you've experienced both.

I agree mostly but with so many wire types out now you can get a similar vape from both, just takes a lot of trial and error. The gear is too warm with my go to builds so I'll be revisiting higher resistance builds with it.

 

[muth]

I agree mostly but with so many wire types out now you can get a similar vape from both, just takes a lot of trial and error. The gear is too warm with my go to builds so I'll be revisiting higher resistance builds with it.

Don't know what you're go to build is or what you're using it on but I'd like to hear what you think when changing the resistance.

 

[Letitia]

@Letitia I remember what I was saying in that reply. It was a comment about how reviewers don't articulate the nuances. They simply say the coil is close to your mouth, therefore you get good flavor. Then they'll say the chimney is long, condensing the flavor and making it more intense. It confuses viewers because they don't explain anything about why you can have it both ways.

I don’t think that is a reviewer's job personally. Their job is to review a specific product and it's pros/cons imo. If they explain further it just muddies up the review for the average vaper which most of us are not.

 

[Letitia]

Don't know what you're go to build is or what you're using it on but I'd like to hear what you think when changing the resistance.

The OFFR gear rta, squatty rta that's a flavor banger but the vape is too warm with my tri cores so I'll go back to builds more similar to what I started out on.

 

[muth]

I don’t think that is a reviewer's job personally. Their job is to review a specific product and it's pros/cons imo. If they explain further it just muddies up the review for the average vaper which most of us are not.

I should have said build tutorial. And maybe I expect too much but it would be nice to see more educational videos. But perhaps you're right. Most of these youtube vids are product sellers not vaping schools, lol.

 

[Letitia]

I should have said build tutorial. And maybe I expect too much but it would be nice to see more educational videos. But perhaps you're right. Most of these youtube vids are product sellers not vaping schools, lol.

There are still a few current tutorials but not as many as there used to be. YT taught me most of what I know about building and wicking.

 

[muth]

There are still a few current tutorials but not as many as there used to be. YT taught me most of what I know about building and wicking.

Same here. I can remember start and pause every 10 seconds trying to learn how to wrap a coil. I was a nervous wreck afraid that when I finally hit the power button my mod would blow up in my face.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Dear @Letitia, @muth…I never ran across anything on YT
that led me to makin good muffins without a muffin pan.
Though try as I might, I only get pan-cakes…
and occasionally, crepes.

Have a great Memorial Day weekend all.

Good luck.

 

[Letitia]

Same here. I can remember start and pause every 10 seconds trying to learn how to wrap a coil. I was a nervous wreck afraid that when I finally hit the power button my mod would blow up in my face.

Me too! Always laugh at myself when reminiscing while reading posts from those like us so nervous when starting out.

 

[Letitia]

Dear @Letitia, @muth…I never ran across anything on YT
that led me to makin good muffins without a muffin pan.
Though try as I might, I only get pan-cakes…
and occasionally, crepes.

Have a great Memorial Day weekend all.

Good luck.

Then I guess you're one of the lucky ones with a natural knack and understanding for building. I just am not but intelligent enough to know the guys at the shop didn't understand much either.

 

[AngeNZ]

Same here. I can remember start and pause every 10 seconds trying to learn how to wrap a coil. I was a nervous wreck afraid that when I finally hit the power button my mod would blow up in my face.

This was me too - I did everything the French speaking reviewer did when building my first doggystyle RTA - including unscrewing the grub screws and taking them out

Certainly didn't get the lil peckers back in as quick as he did

 

[Letitia]

LMAO

 

[muth]

This was me too - I did everything the French speaking reviewer did when building my first doggystyle RTA - including unscrewing the grub screws and taking them out

Certainly didn't get the lil peckers back in as quick as he did

Haha, I'm always suspicious of reviewers who remove grub screws. Why do something that risky?

 

[muth]

I know this is a can of worms since what makes taste "great" is often subjective. But I'd like to get some opinions. This is mainly for MTL vaping...aka "great taste", but I think the principles should apply for any type of vaper or atty.

I notice that more-recent atties, now just randomly mention VandyVApe Berserker any many others, are way more compact than the oldschool types, like my beloved KF Lite V2 Plus, which *overall* is still the most satisfying MTL device for me.

* Height of the internal chamber.
You can see this when you compare, say a Kayfun to a more modern one. The Kayfun has a larger vape "chamber" which goes almost the entire length of the tank. New devices have a short chamber, like a dome/cap over the coils. Since recent so-called "best MTL" devices all have a short chamber, is it right to assume that this means "better taste"? (Eg. Svoemestro is advertizing their latest KF Lite 2019 as "having better taste since the vape is concentrated in a smaller chamber"...but of course this could just be marketing blahblah. (I was NEVER very happy with anything Svoemestro did after Kayfun Lite, for MTL, V5 is horrid and V3 was "meh". And to me it looks, the entire change in KF Lite 2019 is the super-small tank which now all atties need to have by law....doeesn't need it's necessarily "better"...

* Height of the chimney
See, what's its name, Coppervape Spica Pro. Where you can adjust the chimney height. (The chimney, of course, is the smaller tube leading up from the "chamber"). I can also experiment with my Kayfun parts here, and make one with the super-chort chimney from the Nano kit, with smaller tank. The question is, which is "better": No doubt, the vape is hotter with short chimney...but this doesn't mean it's "better".

In addition to that, I have confusing information about the Spica Pro, where some say that a longer (!!) chimney makes for a better throat hit. (My common sense tells me a shorter chimney would make better TH...but I can be wrong)

* Height of the coil above the air hole.
I have seen several people saying that MORE distance of the coil to the air hole below means better taste and throathit. Can someone confirm this? This also contradicts what I though. I thought coil closer to the hole means better throathit.

* Diameter of the air hole.
Yesterday I read somewhere that the diameter of the hole right under the coil is the most important for "good taste", much more so than the outside air intake hole on an atty. The person said that a smaller hole makes a lot of difference, but a smaller intake hole outside the atty regulates only airflow, but has no influence on taste whatsoever!

I think all these things are interesting, since it could help someone with the expected flavour of a device, just judging from specs and dimensions.

*
I own several Kayfun Lite V2 Plus clones ("Still King for MTL"), KF V3 Mini Plus ("ok"), V5 ("horrid for MTL"), Berserker ("leaking POS") and currently I have a Dvarw coming since everyone is so hyped about it. Most excited about the Dvarw.

Flexy, I had to go back and read your post because it contains so much and I wanted to make sure we weren't going off script. You raise many questions and make good points about the "flavor argument". Maybe someday a book will be written about the aspects of flavor production in atomizers. I have a feeling a multitude of variations will arise. You'll also get an argument from lung hitters who claim great flavor from their setups. But, back to MTLs......

I look forward to your thoughts on the Dvarw. I hope you enjoy it. A friend of mine who owns multiple KFs (mostly the older styles but recently a 2019) turned me on to the Asvape Zeta which I'm using right now. It's a MTL shortie which he claims is a touch more flavorful than his KFs. My only complaint is the small capacity but I'm enjoying it. Besides flavor, for me, it's also important to have an atty that is convenient to use. I don't mind fiddling with the Rose V2 for that incredible flavor but it's not in my daily rotation.

 

[Janusz]

Maybe someday a book will be written about the aspects of flavor production in atomizers. I have a feeling a multitude of variations will arise. You'll also get an argument from lung hitters who claim great flavor from their setups. But, back to MTLs......

.

We will never reach consensus on what makes RTA more or less flavorful because of too many variables that affect our judgement. Coil size, position of coil, kind of wire and gauge, number of wraps, length and density of wick, wicking material, size of chamber, size of airflow under coil, length of chimney..... make it difficult... but another variable that make it even more difficult is the way we vape... how long draws we do, how long are intervals between them, how warm vape we like, what flavors we use...

If I had to single out factor that is the most crucial for good flavor in rta it is wicking. To get excellent flavor wick has to be saturated with juice and majority of complaints of poor flavor are IMHO due not because chamber is too big or chimney too long but because wick is semi dry...we draw vapor that is not dense enough or is too cool for particular flavor...

Problem is increasing wattage cause dry hits so we reduce it to level that is too low for optimal flavor... so when we are talking about "sweet spot" it is forced by the way wick transport juice. What it means for those that make short infrequent puffs particular RTA can provide good flavor and the same RTA for those that like longer draws or chain vape flavor seems poor...

I have over dozen different RTAs but most of them wicks more/less the same... there is not much difference between Siren, Hastur, Gotank, Doggy, Gallaxy and many similar GTA style RTA in regard to wicking so size of chamber or lenght of chimney can provide slight variation of flavor... depending on build and coil position one tank can be slightly better than other but noticeable difference is not very consistent.

Currently the most consistent great flavor I am getting from RTA comes from Dvarw, Reaper V3 and Hussar Project X what differentiate those three tanks from the rest I own is not the chamber size (Doggy chamber is smallest) nor chimney lenght (Reaper 5ml is the tallest tank I use) but the way those tanks wicks. All three my most consistently flavorful tanks have (relatively to rest of tanks) short wicks and juice does not have to travel upwards...Hussar is very short and Reaper very tall and it does not affect flavor... of course it does not mean I can carelessly wick it... the most flavorful tank can be made flavorless by stuffing too much cotton...

 

[muth]

We will never reach consensus on what makes RTA more or less flavorful because of too many variables that affect our judgement. Coil size, position of coil, kind of wire and gauge, number of wraps, length and density of wick, wicking material, size of chamber, size of airflow under coil, length of chimney..... make it difficult... but another variable that make it even more difficult is the way we vape... how long draws we do, how long are intervals between them, how warm vape we like, what flavors we use...

If I had to single out factor that is the most crucial for good flavor in rta it is wicking. To get excellent flavor wick has to be saturated with juice and majority of complaints of poor flavor are IMHO due not because chamber is too big or chimney too long but because wick is semi dry...we draw vapor that is not dense enough or is too cool for particular flavor...

Problem is increasing wattage cause dry hits so we reduce it to level that is too low for optimal flavor... so when we are talking about "sweet spot" it is forced by the way wick transport juice. What it means for those that make short infrequent puffs particular RTA can provide good flavor and the same RTA for those that like longer draws or chain vape flavor seems poor...

I have over dozen different RTAs but most of them wicks more/less the same... there is not much difference between Siren, Hastur, Gotank, Doggy, Gallaxy and many similar GTA style RTA in regard to wicking so size of chamber or lenght of chimney can provide slight variation of flavor... depending on build and coil position one tank can be slightly better than other but noticeable difference is not very consistent.

Currently the most consistent great flavor I am getting from RTA comes from Dvarw, Reaper V3 and Hussar Project X what differentiate those three tanks from the rest I own is not the chamber size (Doggy chamber is smallest) nor chimney lenght (Reaper 5ml is the tallest tank I use) but the way those tanks wicks. All three my most consistently flavorful tanks have (relatively to rest of tanks) short wicks and juice does not have to travel upwards...Hussar is very short and Reaper very tall and it does not affect flavor... of course it does not mean I can carelessly wick it... the most flavorful tank can be made flavorless by stuffing too much cotton...

Great contribution. Thank you, Janusz. That's why I say you'd have to write a book. There's just too many variables involved. You're the first vaper I've heard mention short wicks. I've always liked that type of wicking because it made sense to me that the shorter the tails, the shorter the distance of travel. And especially if the tails are horizontal to the coil like a Hurricane deck.