FDA issues notice of intent to propose "deeming" regulation by April of 2013 for e-cigarettes and other tobacco products

[Petrodus]

StereoDreamer
Rest assured there are some of us who know the Ugly Truth
about the FDA. We don't often share what we know on
the ECF because it just opens a can of worms that most
can't or don't want to deal with.

In America today ... If you try to expose the real truth
about the government and its agencies ... You’re branded
as some kind of UN-patriotic radical conspiracy theorist.

This is so true.

Before I started using electronic cigarettes I was blissfully ignorant to how the world really is.
But when you start digging into what is really going on, it gets uglier and uglier the further down you go.

Before I started using electronic cigarettes I would have though you guys were conspiracy nuts.
But now I are one too.


But it isn't just America, it is how the world works.
It is probably how things work, and have worked, in every country throughout history.

In the PAST ... What set America apart from the rest of the world
was we were NOT just like all the other countries.

Note: I said "In the PAST"

 

[Skinny Pete]

this sucks...

 

[DC2]

In the PAST ... What set America apart from the rest of the world
was we were NOT just like all the other countries.

Note: I said "In the PAST"

Exactly, because the evolution of any form of government eventually leads to the same place.
One hand washing the other, power and corruption, the universal truth.

 

[ethebull]

Here is a White House Petition - "Prevent the FDA from regulating or banning the sale and use of electronic cigarettes, accessories and associated liquids"

- http://wh.gov/E2hF

It requires you to register first but is very easy to do.

 

[JENerationX]

Haven't been around..... new job with hellacious hours, but I have posted my comment, signed the petition etc. Hopefully someone listens. I doubt it'll have much effect on the FDA's decisions, but if we don't at least voice our own opinions, nobody else will.

 

[Petrodus]

Haven't been around..... new job with hellacious hours, but I have posted my comment, signed the petition etc.
Hopefully someone listens. I doubt it'll have much effect on the FDA's decisions, but if we don't
at least voice our own opinions, nobody else will.

#1 ... The FDA demonizes anyone opposing their agendas
#2 ... The FDA decides what regulations they will enact
#3 ... The FDA puts on "dog and pony show"
#4 ... The FDA enacts regulations (see #2)

Some see the same correlation with what the White House does
regarding its agendas. Just substitute Executive orders and signed
UN Treaties for the word Regulations.

I'm sure, me saying that, will offend someone here.
However ... The government is not your friend.

 

[slin]

You must understand your enemy before you go to a war.
FDA knew the benefit of e-cig, no matter how many post we post on their site, they will just fall on deaf ears. FDA is just PR firm for the tobacco and big phama.
We do have voice but not big enough voice to battle with FDA. In order to move FDA, we need general public help which is almost impossible. General public have negative view on anything associated with "cig".
I don't have any idea how to tackle with current situation we are in. My opinion is LOBBYISTS are public enemy number one. Until we change the system , FDA will not be moved by our voices.
I am angry, yes I am mad but I still enjoy vaping and this tight community.

 

[VapApe]

You must understand your enemy before you go to a war.
FDA knew the benefit of e-cig, no matter how many post we post on their site, they will just fall on deaf ears. FDA is just PR firm for the tobacco and big phama.
We do have voice but not big enough voice to battle with FDA. In order to move FDA, we need general public help which is almost impossible. General public have negative view on anything associated with "cig".
I don't have any idea how to tackle with current situation we are in. My opinion is LOBBYISTS are public enemy number one. Until we change the system , FDA will not be moved by our voices.
I am angry, yes I am mad but I still enjoy vaping and this tight community.

Keep your friends close and your enemy's closer.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Wile we have no love for BT, for what they have done in the past.
But now like it or not, we share some common interests.

 

[daPorkchop]

Vocalek suggested one pdf file to read, I haven't read that one yet. I did however read this one and it is very well written and easy to look over (as it is a slide presentation). Can give us ammo. Seems the FDA wants to fight nicotine absence instead of the actual problem (seems to be going around lately).

Link to the comment page

I attached the file for easier access

 

[daPorkchop]

I honestly hate when a news anchor or a radio show host only tells one side of the story. So, I'm going to try to see it from their point of view and I would welcome a rebuttal so that I can put the concerns at rest.

There are two things that do trouble me about ecigs.

1. Having a chemically unstable power source crammed into a small shell that close to your face. If not properly educated on a battery, at least the basics, that leads to the potential of irreparable damage. Yes, a cigarette can lead to cancer, also irreparable. Though, you could pick up a cigarette smoke it put it down and won't get cancer. The first time you pick up an ecig, it could explode. Also, with no regulations, there is no mandatory way of building the ecig. Which can lead to shotty work which can increase the risk factor. We (you guys, as I am new here) have a great community here. We help each-other with problems and try to educate on the risks. I commend you guys for that. However, the ecig community is still a small group of people. Even the suppliers are small in comparison to what will happen if/when ecigs are bigger than the tobacco community. If not regulated, when greed starts to take over, things could get out of hand with manufacturing. Right now, most (i believe) mods are hand made. Ecigs are mass produced, but mods could get there too.

2. The nicotine levels. This I'm not THAT well educated on. Some people smoke 24mg/ml and anywhere from 2-10ml (maybe more) a day. From what I've read on this site, we don't absorb it all, if even 50% of that. Do we really know though (if we do, please tell me so)? I know, by inhaling it, you will get poisoning before you die. So most people would just lay off of it for a bit. But, do we know what happens long term with the amount we do inhale? From what I can tell, more nicotine is going in our bodies (not absorbed just going in) than with cigarettes (i know I would be smoking more nicotine than I am now and was with cigarettes, if I wasn't being forced by my company to quit). I think we inhale more nicotine manly cause we know we aren't getting all the other chemicals as well (and the cancer causing tar).

Now, with that said. All the other reasons they want to ban ecigs, apply to analogs as well. The benefits for ecig over analogs greatly out ways the risks of ecigs, in my opinon. I also would like to say I don't want the banning of ecigs. There should be no ban on ecigs. Regulations? Maybe. Maybe not, but no ban without just cause. Especially with analogs still on the market. And if any research shows that nicotine is more lethal than controlled substances (relevant to the doses we intake), all tobacco should be removed from the market.



(also, I probably should have waited til when I'm fully awake to write this. I just wanted to get it off my chest, so please don't blow too much carbon monoxide my way. )

P.S. We are lucky to have such a great board for people to come get information from. Thanks to the developers!

 

[DC2]

2. The nicotine levels. This I'm not THAT well educated on. Some people smoke 24mg/ml and anywhere from 2-10ml (maybe more) a day. From what I've read on this site, we don't absorb it all, if even 50% of that. Do we really know though (if we do, please tell me so)?

This is the best answer I can give...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...312547-nicotine-absorption-contradiction.html

You can skip all the rest and just read the posts from Rolygate.

 

[kristin]

I honestly hate when a news anchor or a radio show host only tells one side of the story. So, I'm going to try to see it from their point of view and I would welcome a rebuttal so that I can put the concerns at rest.

There are two things that do trouble me about ecigs.

1. Having a chemically unstable power source crammed into a small shell that close to your face. If not properly educated on a battery, at least the basics, that leads to the potential of irreparable damage. Yes, a cigarette can lead to cancer, also irreparable. Though, you could pick up a cigarette smoke it put it down and won't get cancer. The first time you pick up an ecig, it could explode. Also, with no regulations, there is no mandatory way of building the ecig. Which can lead to shotty work which can increase the risk factor. We (you guys, as I am new here) have a great community here. We help each-other with problems and try to educate on the risks. I commend you guys for that. However, the ecig community is still a small group of people. Even the suppliers are small in comparison to what will happen if/when ecigs are bigger than the tobacco community. If not regulated, when greed starts to take over, things could get out of hand with manufacturing. Right now, most (i believe) mods are hand made. Ecigs are mass produced, but mods could get there too.

Cell phones have batteries that can explode in your face, too, yet no one seems overly concerned about that: Exploding cell phones prompt warnings - Technology & science - Wireless | NBC News

Note the tone of that article compared to this one about one of only two reported times an e-cigarette "exploded" while being held and resulted in serious injury: Are smokeless cigarettes safer? E-cig explodes in smoker's mouth - latimes.com

Instead of recommending that reasonable steps, like always using manufacturer recommended batteries, not covering heat vents, collaborating with the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers for battery standards, recalls for bad devices and explaining how extremely rare lithium-ion battery explosions are; the e-cig article actually suggests to readers that the explosion danger is enough to make e-cigarettes more or just as dangerous as traditional cigarettes! The truth is, the risks of a typical, mass-marketed e-cig battery killing or even seriously injuring a user are still far, far lower than the risks of continuing to smoke. It's like not wearing a seat belt because there have been rare reports that people have died when trapped by seat belts in car wrecks. Pure hysteria.

2. The nicotine levels. This I'm not THAT well educated on. Some people smoke 24mg/ml and anywhere from 2-10ml (maybe more) a day. From what I've read on this site, we don't absorb it all, if even 50% of that. Do we really know though (if we do, please tell me so)? I know, by inhaling it, you will get poisoning before you die. So most people would just lay off of it for a bit. But, do we know what happens long term with the amount we do inhale? From what I can tell, more nicotine is going in our bodies (not absorbed just going in) than with cigarettes (i know I would be smoking more nicotine than I am now and was with cigarettes, if I wasn't being forced by my company to quit). I think we inhale more nicotine manly cause we know we aren't getting all the other chemicals as well (and the cancer causing tar).

First of all, we aren't "smoking." Smoking involves burning combustible material. We are vaping.

As an example, I vape about 3 ml of 12 mg per day. I work from my home computer, so I vape pretty much non-stop and go through a LOT of liquid. It would be pretty unusual for someone to vape 10 ml per day, especially 24 mg. But it is known that smoking (lung delivery) is the most effective way for nicotine delivery, compared to smoke-free tobacco and gums/patches/lozenges (upper respiratory delivery, which researchers seem to think is more comparable to how vapor works.) Studies show that, on average, each cigarette contains around 10 mg, but only about 1 mg (10%) is absorbed by the body. Multiply that by 20 cigarettes (one pack) and that is 20 mg of nicotine absorbed per day. Compared to e-cigarettes, even at the same 10% absorption rate, someone who uses an unusually high amount like 10 ml of 24 mg solution per day would be absorbing 24 mg per day. That is pretty comparable to the 20 mg nicotine per day they were getting when they smoked. (If they are truly vaping that much, they were probably smoking more than a pack a day, as well.)

Keep in mind that we also don't smoke or vape the same way people use other drugs or alcohol and then overdose. Nicotine cravings are more like being thirsty. We get thirsty and we drink some water until we no longer feel thirsty. We don't keep drinking and drinking water even though we are no longer thirsty, but people WILL keep drinking more and more alcohol or doing drugs, because they lose control and rational thinking when inebriated. So, just as when we smoked, we vape until the craving goes away. The danger of overdoing it to the point of serious nicotine poisoning is very low because of this - just as it was when we smoked.

Hope that helps.

 

[Vocalek]

Vocalek suggested one pdf file to read, I haven't read that one yet. I did however read this one and it is very well written and easy to look over (as it is a slide presentation). Can give us ammo. Seems the FDA wants to fight nicotine absence instead of the actual problem (seems to be going around lately).

Link to the comment page

I attached the file for easier access

Thanks for posting that. I was looking through the slides for the testimony given by Legacy's David Abrams and found it a pleasant surprise and rather a change in attitude. I was curious about one of his slides so I tracked down the journal article he referred to and found the full text is available for free.

Exploring Scenarios to Dramatically Reduce Smoking Prevalence: A Simulation Model of the Three-Part Cessation Process

 

[daPorkchop]

Indeed this does help Kristin and DC2. Thanks!

 

[TTK]

While it is necessary to have as much scientific information as possible, I just have this feeling that the FDA decision is going to be made based on politics( in the broad sense) not science.

 

[zoiDman]

You need the Scientific Information for the Lawsuits that will follow.

 

[Petrodus]

You need the Scientific Information for the Lawsuits that will follow.

I've heard rumors about Lawsuits that will follow.
Brings a smile to my face !!

 

[zoiDman]

I've heard rumors about Lawsuits that will follow.
Brings a smile to my face !!

If this is a Fight. I mean Really a Fight. Then you have to get ready for the Next Round.

A Lawsuit brought and funded by Retail e-Liquid Manufactures would be the Next Logical Step.

 

[Petrodus]

Attorney Jonathan Emord ... is "The Man"
The only attorney in history to defeat the FDA in Federal Court a remarkable seven times,
six times on First Amendment grounds.

Home Page: Click Here

Publications: Click Here
____________________________

Since 1935 the Congress of the United States has delegated vast legislative, executive, and judicial powers to the Federal Agencies.

Today over 90% of all new federal law is the product not of Congress, not of our elected representatives, but of unelected heads of federal agencies who are largely unaccountable to the courts, the Congress, and the American people.

The Founding Fathers predicted that if ever those constitutional powers were vested in single hands that would be the death of liberty and the birth of tyranny.

Attorney Jonathan Emord
____________________________

If anyone gets Attorney Emord to fight the FDA.
I'll immediately contribute 4 figures to the legal fund.

 

[VapApe]

FDA worst nightmare a lawsuit by retail e-Liquid Manufactures their attorney Jonathan Emord and Judge Richard J. Leon presiding


We can dream cant we