I have but I am a shadow...a phantom...by myself I am nothing...as a part of a group we have power...
BTW nice written sig Frosting,,,
BTW nice written sig Frosting,,,
FDA may soon propose regulation that could ban many/most e-cigarette products, eliminate many/most companies
- Thread starter Bill Godshall
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
-
- Tags
- innokin nicquid revolution revolver
- Status
Rush is a blowhard...he means well and gets the word out on many things but blowhard nonetheless...the populace is the true power...let our votes do the talking people...and remember look at a persons history not just what they proclaim or a said party proclaims to be...before we lose said right...
and don't be fooled. at some point we will be asked (however surreptitiously it will be )our freedom or peace....I choose freedom...
how many rights must they take away in the name of peace before you see the truth and the inevitable final question...too late is too late...STAND up and make your voice be heard....!!!!!
and don't be fooled. at some point we will be asked (however surreptitiously it will be )our freedom or peace....I choose freedom...
how many rights must they take away in the name of peace before you see the truth and the inevitable final question...too late is too late...STAND up and make your voice be heard....!!!!!
Last edited:
Device classification isn't a terribly difficult issue.
Granted, I'm fairly new to all this. But, maybe it's useful perspective.
I was surprised when my vaping mentor sat down and gave me a list of "must have' URLs. One of them being ECF. I was a bit surprised, as mentally, I was done with cigarettes and was moving on to something different, as distant from the the notion of a 'cigarette' as I could get. I was honestly expecting the largest community on vaping to reference itself as a vaping community, not an e-cig community, google hits be damned.
One must look at what the paraphernalia industry did for precedence. It first hit me when living in the inner-city (ATL), and a gas station sold flowers in a little glass tube; how cute. The tubes were actually crack pipes. Another example from a local 'smoke shop' is a large $300 water pipe, hand painted with a portrait of Bob Marley detailed in all his glory on a certain 5 leaf plant, attached to this masterpiece is a sign saying nothing but "For Tobacco use only".
In my best Eric Idle, "Nudge nudge, wink wink".
The above exist, legally, because they aren't marketed, or other wise represented, for the specific use that would make them illegal.
Device manufactures simply need to follow the same model. The GG in my hand is NOT an e-cig, it was sold to me as a "Personal Vaporizer". This puts the liability on me to decide how I wish to use it.
Simply put, the industry needs to morph from ecig to personal vaporizers, on principle alone.. Crowd sourcing can handle the google hits/redirects.
---
The 2007 clause another interesting aspect here. Something I'd like to understand more. Specifically as it related to VG/PG liquid. Is this essentially a grandfather clause meaning anyone who was producing liquid, of a specific flavor, including unflavored, has a degree of regulatory immunity? (Not tax, just regulatory... tax is coming, it's just a matter of critical mass)
Enlighten me, please.
-Z
I wish I could tell you about a grandfather clause, but I'm not sure about that. My argument was on principle alone - that the devices alone aren't tobacco or nicotine products.
I do understand your angle on the "head shop" model - the "tobacco" water pipe. The problem I see with taking this approach is that it could backfire and paint the industry as illegitimate. The last thing the e-cig industry needs right now is to give the highly corporatized regulatory agencies reasons to legitimize their attack on e-cigs, PV's, or whatever we call them. That five-leaf plant is illegal in most cases: nicotine isn't. Thus, e-cigs create a very attractive and effective alternative to the standard "quit or die" line used by the Public Relations of numerous government and corporate-funded organizations.
PR is propaganda, and while its propagation of myth doesn't reflect reality, it can be potentially crippling to the e-cig industry. They aren't relying on facts, they are relying on forming public opinion. Any misstep such as adopting the "tobacco water pipe" approach gives them exactly what they want: more reasons to delegitimize e-cigs.
I do understand your angle on the "head shop" model - the "tobacco" water pipe. The problem I see with taking this approach is that it could backfire and paint the industry as illegitimate. The last thing the e-cig industry needs right now is to give the highly corporatized regulatory agencies reasons to legitimize their attack on e-cigs, PV's, or whatever we call them. That five-leaf plant is illegal in most cases: nicotine isn't. Thus, e-cigs create a very attractive and effective alternative to the standard "quit or die" line used by the Public Relations of numerous government and corporate-funded organizations.
PR is propaganda, and while its propagation of myth doesn't reflect reality, it can be potentially crippling to the e-cig industry. They aren't relying on facts, they are relying on forming public opinion. Any misstep such as adopting the "tobacco water pipe" approach gives them exactly what they want: more reasons to delegitimize e-cigs.
I just sent this out in a "mass email" to various new organizations and my state reps.
Hello there,
I would like to inform the American Public about what I believe is yet another attempt by the FDA to regulate our lives. There are two proposal currently in the works that could in all likely hood end the sale of electronic cigarettes. I implore you to inform people of these regulations and the scare tactics that the FDA is using.
Regulations.gov
Regulations.gov
The first regulation could ban the internet sale of these devices. Their reasoning is that minors will be able to purchase these devices. Correct me if I am mistaken but internet sales require a credit card for payment, I know of no bank that would issue a credit card to a minor,
I believe that this has more to do with tax revenue than with "protecting the children" as there is no state or federal "sin" tax on these devices.
I have been using an electronic cigarette (PV) since March of this year and have completely stopped using analog cigarettes since May 8th. If these items were to be banned I, along with thousands of others would more than likely go back to smoking analog cigarettes.
There are those adults who choose to smoke, which is their right as adults ... to choose what or what not to consume into their bodies. Nicotine is being studied for its medicinal usefulness in multiple regards - Alzheimer's, ADD, Krohn's disease - and has been long recognized as a choice self-medication for those with cognitive-focal issues.
There is one retail establishment in my area that carries electronic cigarettes and accessories, however their prices are much higher than what I can spend for the same items online. Also many electronic cigarettes vendors do not have "walk in" retail locations and as such banning interenet sales of their products would in essence put them out of business.
Remove Internet sales of liquid nicotine for use in PVs and hand a large number of people merely trying to be kinder to their bodies a death sentence ... straight back into the fire, literally. It also will be a death sentence to many small, but flourishing, businesses -- our current economy really doesn't need that now does it?
I agree that there should be baseline standards (e.g. manufacturing, ensuring no-sale to minors) but to place the level of restrictions implied within this text (i.e. applying PACT to tobacco products other than cigarettes and smokeless tobacco) would be to seriously harm many, many legal adult consumers because the electronic cigarette industry is too young to have a strong brick-and-mortar presence anywhere other than large metropolitan areas. The FDA instead of doing the research needed has instead opted to support a nicotine vacine, which has shown little success and cost millions of dollars to research.
Antismoking Vaccine Fails in Late Trial - NYTimes.com
As to the second purposed regulation:
Under the provisions of Section 910, manufacturers/importers (of all tobacco products that weren't on the market prior to February 15, 2007) would need to submit an application to the FDA claiming that the product is "substantially equivalent" to another product that was already on the market prior to 2/15/2007, and the FDA would have sole discretion of determining whether the product is or isn't substantially equivalent to the other e-cigarette product.
Also, Section 911 would prohibit all e-cigarette manufacturers and importers from truthfully claiming that e-cigarettes are less hazardous than cigarettes, as such a claim would render the product as a "modified risk tobacco product". Section 911 requires any company desiring to make a MRTP claim to apply to the FDA to do so, and the FDA must approve the application.
Many other provisions in Chapter IX would basically require every e-cigarette manufacturer and importer to hire a team of lawyers just to comply with the currently pending provisions (as well as comply with regulations approved in the future).
A rant from the FDA and others that continues to be played over and over again and comes from a series of 18 samples of e-liquid. A trace in one vial was found of the chemical diethylene glycol. Elaine Keller best summed this in a comment ,"The FDA press release about their study raised concerns by employing two propaganda techniques: Lying by Omission and Stereotyping. The FDA failed to provide the quantitative analysis, showing that the amount of TSNAs they found is no larger than the amount in an FDA-approved nicotine patch, and failed to mention that the amount of Diethylene Glycol found in 1 of 18 cartridges tested (0.01 ml) is too minuscule to present any danger whatsoever of poisoning the user. They compounded this by failing to mention that they found nothing at all harmful in the vapor." Yet they used powerful words like diethylene glycol, found in anti-freeze. As for TSNAs in e-cigarettes vs. tobacco smoke the this was noted to be present albeit generally smaller than cigarettes. In fact one 16 mg bottle of e-liquid had 1200 times less TSNAs than 20 cigarettes. How about just saying it is extremely less or dramatically less than tobacco. Generally less is actually a falsehood and suggests they could be higher than some cigarettes.
There is also an ommission by the FDA of published reports of studies done on electronic cigarettes that show very positive evidence for safety and future in e-cigarette harm reduction.
Thank you in advance for your time,
Debbie Guardino
Chicopee MA 01020
http://www.casaa.org/files/CASAA_Leg...r_Bans_Web.pdf
E-cigarettes: Threat or therapy? - Health & wellness - The Boston Globe
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/sc...1&ref=findings
http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/download...vey-wave-2.pdf
Hello there,
I would like to inform the American Public about what I believe is yet another attempt by the FDA to regulate our lives. There are two proposal currently in the works that could in all likely hood end the sale of electronic cigarettes. I implore you to inform people of these regulations and the scare tactics that the FDA is using.
Regulations.gov
Regulations.gov
The first regulation could ban the internet sale of these devices. Their reasoning is that minors will be able to purchase these devices. Correct me if I am mistaken but internet sales require a credit card for payment, I know of no bank that would issue a credit card to a minor,
I believe that this has more to do with tax revenue than with "protecting the children" as there is no state or federal "sin" tax on these devices.
I have been using an electronic cigarette (PV) since March of this year and have completely stopped using analog cigarettes since May 8th. If these items were to be banned I, along with thousands of others would more than likely go back to smoking analog cigarettes.
There are those adults who choose to smoke, which is their right as adults ... to choose what or what not to consume into their bodies. Nicotine is being studied for its medicinal usefulness in multiple regards - Alzheimer's, ADD, Krohn's disease - and has been long recognized as a choice self-medication for those with cognitive-focal issues.
There is one retail establishment in my area that carries electronic cigarettes and accessories, however their prices are much higher than what I can spend for the same items online. Also many electronic cigarettes vendors do not have "walk in" retail locations and as such banning interenet sales of their products would in essence put them out of business.
Remove Internet sales of liquid nicotine for use in PVs and hand a large number of people merely trying to be kinder to their bodies a death sentence ... straight back into the fire, literally. It also will be a death sentence to many small, but flourishing, businesses -- our current economy really doesn't need that now does it?
I agree that there should be baseline standards (e.g. manufacturing, ensuring no-sale to minors) but to place the level of restrictions implied within this text (i.e. applying PACT to tobacco products other than cigarettes and smokeless tobacco) would be to seriously harm many, many legal adult consumers because the electronic cigarette industry is too young to have a strong brick-and-mortar presence anywhere other than large metropolitan areas. The FDA instead of doing the research needed has instead opted to support a nicotine vacine, which has shown little success and cost millions of dollars to research.
Antismoking Vaccine Fails in Late Trial - NYTimes.com
As to the second purposed regulation:
Under the provisions of Section 910, manufacturers/importers (of all tobacco products that weren't on the market prior to February 15, 2007) would need to submit an application to the FDA claiming that the product is "substantially equivalent" to another product that was already on the market prior to 2/15/2007, and the FDA would have sole discretion of determining whether the product is or isn't substantially equivalent to the other e-cigarette product.
Also, Section 911 would prohibit all e-cigarette manufacturers and importers from truthfully claiming that e-cigarettes are less hazardous than cigarettes, as such a claim would render the product as a "modified risk tobacco product". Section 911 requires any company desiring to make a MRTP claim to apply to the FDA to do so, and the FDA must approve the application.
Many other provisions in Chapter IX would basically require every e-cigarette manufacturer and importer to hire a team of lawyers just to comply with the currently pending provisions (as well as comply with regulations approved in the future).
A rant from the FDA and others that continues to be played over and over again and comes from a series of 18 samples of e-liquid. A trace in one vial was found of the chemical diethylene glycol. Elaine Keller best summed this in a comment ,"The FDA press release about their study raised concerns by employing two propaganda techniques: Lying by Omission and Stereotyping. The FDA failed to provide the quantitative analysis, showing that the amount of TSNAs they found is no larger than the amount in an FDA-approved nicotine patch, and failed to mention that the amount of Diethylene Glycol found in 1 of 18 cartridges tested (0.01 ml) is too minuscule to present any danger whatsoever of poisoning the user. They compounded this by failing to mention that they found nothing at all harmful in the vapor." Yet they used powerful words like diethylene glycol, found in anti-freeze. As for TSNAs in e-cigarettes vs. tobacco smoke the this was noted to be present albeit generally smaller than cigarettes. In fact one 16 mg bottle of e-liquid had 1200 times less TSNAs than 20 cigarettes. How about just saying it is extremely less or dramatically less than tobacco. Generally less is actually a falsehood and suggests they could be higher than some cigarettes.
There is also an ommission by the FDA of published reports of studies done on electronic cigarettes that show very positive evidence for safety and future in e-cigarette harm reduction.
Thank you in advance for your time,
Debbie Guardino
Chicopee MA 01020
http://www.casaa.org/files/CASAA_Leg...r_Bans_Web.pdf
E-cigarettes: Threat or therapy? - Health & wellness - The Boston Globe
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/sc...1&ref=findings
http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/download...vey-wave-2.pdf
I agree, and more education needs to get out there, i have had tons of people ask me about my pv, and alll of them think there is tar and other harmful chemicals in there but its just a reduced amount. They look surprised when i tell them there isnt any. But maybe thats just where i live. Personal vaporizer will help get it away from cigs.
I"m not talking about making the the industry illegitimate.
Windwalker made some very salient points here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...minate-many-most-companies-2.html#post4693873. I mostly agree.
The only thing I don't agree with, even remotely, is this "When picking a fight with a fast moving train the only solutions are: get out of the way, or ride it.".
The guerrilla attacker derails the train.. The tactical attacker, simply isn't there. To quote Sun Tzu: “The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”
In the device specific case, that is done with disassociation. Let the first train crash into all the crap that's sold in gas stations, which end up in the New User forum with a general consensus of "This sucks, what should I do". Something, which I think DOES question the legitimacy of industry.
If it comes down to devices (which people are worried about) there will be a causality. A bueracracy must justify it's funding with results.. And those results are on the low hanging fruit of the tree. which will be the gas station ecig.
If this where a game of chess, I'd give up that pawn. But, I don't think that's the actual battle.
It's not worth it to try and fight every battle, it's imperitive to pick the important one(s) and focus on those, which in my mind would be the unwarranted regulation and improper taxation of nicotine at the hands of a lobbyist funding. That's the battle. Everything else is easy.
-Z
Last edited:
Zogem...
"Everything else is easy. "
Don't you mean "Easy if you have enough money" ?
"Everything else is easy. "
Don't you mean "Easy if you have enough money" ?
This thread has viewed more that 11,000 times. While that is encouraging, reading this isn't enough. Every vaper needs to take action. Whether it's writing to congress, talking to your own city or town board of health, calling the Boston Chamber of Commerce to let them know you will NEVER vacation there and why, sending a letter to the editor of your newspaper, signing online petitions, commenting on negative online articles, it all helps. Ask your friends, family, doctor, dentist, co-worker, boss, everyone you know to take a few minutes to write a letter, too, explaining how vaping has improved your health, your home, your family. If your boss allows vaping, ask him to write a letter explaining that vaping has a positive impact on your work productivity. Copy their letters to include in your mailings and send them as a pdf attachment to your emails.
http://www.casaa.org/files/CASAA-Ecig-TriFold-Brochure.pdf This brochure is very informative. I've printed some out, and keep them in my car. You can also order CASAA business cards.
Order ecf business cards, these are free (just pay shipping) ECF Generic Business Cards (FREE) [ecfgenericbizcard] - It's Free! : ECF Store!, E-Cigarette-Forum.com Swag store!
We need YOU to get involved.
http://www.casaa.org/files/CASAA-Ecig-TriFold-Brochure.pdf This brochure is very informative. I've printed some out, and keep them in my car. You can also order CASAA business cards.
Order ecf business cards, these are free (just pay shipping) ECF Generic Business Cards (FREE) [ecfgenericbizcard] - It's Free! : ECF Store!, E-Cigarette-Forum.com Swag store!
We need YOU to get involved.
I agree w brewlady.....
money does grease the wheels but the final tally comes down to one thing...We the people...at least if we get off our tushes and make our voices be heard...otherwise we deserve what we get...
Yeah... and I don't know about you but I see EXACTLY what happens in this country when you "let your voice be heard" ....
Last edited:
Heck yeah! If they're not going to move, pepper-spray those jerks for blocking the path I have to use everyday!!!
If that type of action was suggested for us, I would have nothing to do with it; if it were the main method of the ecig world, I would become part of the opposition. I am usually instantly against groups who use the "force you to see my view, whether you want to or not" tactic. I can't force anybody to see my views, but I can shine a light on them so the ones who will agree can see.
We are in a time when more is being changed by people speaking their minds. Every year we see more laws changing. The problem is, the most vocal have been the anti-smoking camp, and we're getting lumped in as "smokers".
Accidentally sent when I sat on my phone.
If that type of action was suggested for us, I would have nothing to do with it; if it were the main method of the ecig world, I would become part of the opposition. I am usually instantly against groups who use the "force you to see my view, whether you want to or not" tactic. I can't force anybody to see my views, but I can shine a light on them so the ones who will agree can see.
We are in a time when more is being changed by people speaking their minds. Every year we see more laws changing. The problem is, the most vocal have been the anti-smoking camp, and we're getting lumped in as "smokers".
Accidentally sent when I sat on my phone.
there is a difference between peaceable demonstration of dissatisfaction and wanton disobedience of the law....
Don't mistake my approval/like of what can be done by proper demonstration of peaceable folk and the FOOLS that have been doing this occupy crap...Prime example I have a good many friends on the force(police and want not)they were offended by the occupy people...the first example was they were messy and flaunted the law...whereas several told me the Tea Party gatherings left things cleaner than it was when it started...and there were no citations issued...hmmm
the point is what I have heard said by several Ecig/PV advocates....it seems many PV users are too apathetic when it comes down to what matters making our voices heard..
it has become clear to me one of the greatest achievements(for the side of corruption graft and crappy lawmaking)of the occupy movement is discrediting the proper use of our right to assemble...
and at that I am done...I have no wish to be part of a twisting of what is a very important thread....
Srry to side track things OP but I felt it had to be said...I hold no party affiliation I vote my own way and I vote every time...I was raised that if you don't exercise your right, don't complain as it is just as much your fault as the ones in office...
Don't mistake my approval/like of what can be done by proper demonstration of peaceable folk and the FOOLS that have been doing this occupy crap...Prime example I have a good many friends on the force(police and want not)they were offended by the occupy people...the first example was they were messy and flaunted the law...whereas several told me the Tea Party gatherings left things cleaner than it was when it started...and there were no citations issued...hmmm
the point is what I have heard said by several Ecig/PV advocates....it seems many PV users are too apathetic when it comes down to what matters making our voices heard..
it has become clear to me one of the greatest achievements(for the side of corruption graft and crappy lawmaking)of the occupy movement is discrediting the proper use of our right to assemble...
and at that I am done...I have no wish to be part of a twisting of what is a very important thread....
Srry to side track things OP but I felt it had to be said...I hold no party affiliation I vote my own way and I vote every time...I was raised that if you don't exercise your right, don't complain as it is just as much your fault as the ones in office...
Last edited:
Heck yeah ... I'm all for demonstrating, making noise, etc! I would love to meet up with some local Oregonians and do something ... I get so full of ... something ... anxiety maybe ... when I just talk about stuff rather than doing something.
Also ... CASAA just added a google+ for those interested.
Accidentally sent when I sat on my phone.
Also ... CASAA just added a google+ for those interested.
Accidentally sent when I sat on my phone.
And another bump, with a suggestion.
This is something we need to be talking about, a LOT. (to everybody we can)
Let's not clutter up the thread with extraneous talk about what we think about occupy, pepper spray, or anything else. I'm afraid it could divide us or convince some people whose help we could use not to participate.
Let's stick to what we know, and agree on- vaping saves lives, including ours, and shouldn't be bureaucratized out of existance.
Best,
Ande
This is something we need to be talking about, a LOT. (to everybody we can)
Let's not clutter up the thread with extraneous talk about what we think about occupy, pepper spray, or anything else. I'm afraid it could divide us or convince some people whose help we could use not to participate.
Let's stick to what we know, and agree on- vaping saves lives, including ours, and shouldn't be bureaucratized out of existance.
Best,
Ande
I'm in the Corvallis area. We don't get much going on down here. I would totally love it if Salem would have meets so that it would be more convenient for most of the state to participate in. Besides, that is where all the powers that be work and reside. It would be good for them to have to actually deal with us.
We just had our annual fire inspection at work in October, and the follow-up was this last week. I'm the guy responsible for life and fire safety, so we have been doing this for the last 6 years since she has been the inspector. I'm trying to talk to her, as the fire prevention officer, to get her to see how much of a benefit e-cigs are from her standpoint at least. Every person and viewpoint counts.
We just had our annual fire inspection at work in October, and the follow-up was this last week. I'm the guy responsible for life and fire safety, so we have been doing this for the last 6 years since she has been the inspector. I'm trying to talk to her, as the fire prevention officer, to get her to see how much of a benefit e-cigs are from her standpoint at least. Every person and viewpoint counts.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked
