Feedback discussion thread... AKA "It's all data, and a negative result is still a result."

[leaford]

Leford, I just receive my maxx fusion battery and menthol carts today. 1st automatic that was not a lot of work. Easy!!! No primer puff, great vapor, but no taste in the menthol. I usually vape smilin menthol or wow peppermint from v4life in an 11 or 18 , I ordered the med in bloog. If I up the nick, will the flavor come out better?

The flavors are one aspect I held off on making much in the way of alterations to. I knew generally what I was going for on some of the typically popular flavors, but didn't want to spend too much time customizing them until I had more feedback on what the customers want. Menthol in particular is a tough balance between too strong and too weak, and just comes down to a matter of preference. I still haven't had enough feedback to decide which end of the balance to favor, if either. So thanks, your opinion here helps a lot.

The v4life carts do not work as well on your battery- more work. Any suggestions?

Other than getting better cartomizers?

 

[Quick1]

Agreed, Katya. I'm not sure where anyone got the idea I thought the range of outliers was acceptable. But I was able to establish why the range is so great, that it is exactly what we would expect from the established range of the controled and tested variable, amperage, it doesn't result from a failure on their part to reject cartos outside their testing parameters, and that it's a variable we can control to reduce the variation to within an acceptable range.

I think it was a miscommunication. The impression people got is that you were saying that if people measured current under load they would find it more consistent than the variance found measuring resistance (...even though they vary proportionally).

Basically, they didn't screw up the consistency I was going for, they were just keeping consistent to a different variable and wider range than I was aiming for. Now that I know what they're testing it by, I know what testing parameters to tighten. And now that he knows why the Ohm reading was so important to us and therefore me, he's working to make that happen in the manufacturing procedures so we have fewer rejects at the testing stage.

But he told you he wasn't going to test and reject to the new requirements. That he was going to try to tighten consistency in manufacturing but he would not test and reject to the tighter requirements. Maybe I misunderstood that as well.

I take it he's already looked at the issue, and I look forward to seeing what he has on it. It might be part of how he determined the optimal amperage range and hence the Ohm range.

Sort of the other way around. The Ohm's law equation has to balance. Fix the resistance (once made, a particular carto will have a fixed resistance measured at the battery connector) and only the voltage and current can change and only in proportion to each other. A battery will be capable of supplying some current at some voltage. Let's say it's a 3.7v battery and it's capable of suppling a 1 amp maximum discharge rate (all other factors like temp, etc. constant). If your device "draws" 0.5Amps of current the battery will be at 3.7v. If it tries to draw more than 1Amp of current the voltage will drop. The interesting figure will be the maximum discharge rate of the battery.

I still haven't had a chance to read that primer thread you refered me to, though, and it's not an issue I've followed, so I should prep for it too. Does that thread have a good concise explanation somewhere easily found inside it? If not could you guys give me one? Is it the percentage of the total charge being drawn at each puff that damages the cell? Is there any other variable in the equation that would change the affect?

See above. A battery will have a maximum discharge and a continuous discharge rate (from the manufacturer). Drawing current over the continuous discharge rate will shorten battery life (total life/number of useable charge cycles). Drawing current over the maximum discharge rate risks immediate battery failure/damage. Some/most protected batteries have circuits to cut the battery off at some current just over the maximum discharge rate. Others only protect against short circuit. (then there is minimum voltage/discharge, max voltage/charge, charge rate, etc.).

A battery might be designed to last 500 charge cycles. Decreasing that to 250 by continuously running it over the continuous discharge rate is not such a big thing. Driving a battery over the maximum discharge rate (instantaneous) is what I think we're talking about here with the LR equipment.

 

[leaford]

I think it was a miscommunication. The impression people got is that you were saying that if people measured current under load they would find it more consistent than the variance found measuring resistance (...even though they vary proportionally).

No, just clarifying the method used, and that the variance wasn't inconsistent at all from the predictable distribution. It just was too wide an acceptable range and I'm addressing that.

But he told you he wasn't going to test and reject to the new requirements. That he was going to try to tighten consistency in manufacturing but he would not test and reject to the tighter requirements. Maybe I misunderstood that as well.

Yes, and that's definitly my fault in how I told the story. I didn't mean to give that impression. He's agreed to narrow the range, and in the end that always means testing them and rejecting any outside that range. But he doesn't want to do it by just culling without any other changes. He wants to reduce the accepted tolerances on the manufacturing side before we apply the new limits, and thinks he can do it before we go into production on our next batch.

Either way, though, next batch will have the new limits.

Sort of the other way around. The Ohm's law equation has to balance. Fix the resistance (once made, a particular carto will have a fixed resistance measured at the battery connector) and only the voltage and current can change and only in proportion to each other. A battery will be capable of supplying some current at some voltage. Let's say it's a 3.7v battery and it's capable of suppling a 1 amp maximum discharge rate (all other factors like temp, etc. constant). If your device "draws" 0.5Amps of current the battery will be at 3.7v. If it tries to draw more than 1Amp of current the voltage will drop. The interesting figure will be the maximum discharge rate of the battery.

See above. A battery will have a maximum discharge and a continuous discharge rate (from the manufacturer). Drawing current over the continuous discharge rate will shorten battery life (total life/number of useable charge cycles). Drawing current over the maximum discharge rate risks immediate battery failure/damage. Some/most protected batteries have circuits to cut the battery off at some current just over the maximum discharge rate. Others only protect against short circuit. (then there is minimum voltage/discharge, max voltage/charge, charge rate, etc.).

A battery might be designed to last 500 charge cycles. Decreasing that to 250 by continuously running it over the continuous discharge rate is not such a big thing. Driving a battery over the maximum discharge rate (instantaneous) is what I think we're talking about here with the LR equipment.

Clear enough, now I need to find out from him the discharge rates for our 65mms. But I'm still wondering about some details. What exactly is the relationship between the mAh and the discharge rates? Will a cell with fewer mAh have lower discharge rates than one with more? And are there any other factors that determine the discharge rates? Are there variables that we can change, or are they fixed characteristics for the 3.7v Li-ion cells we use? The less I need to ask him to explain via translator the better.

 

[ManicMaurice]

Just received my Bloog MaxxFusion kit today. My ordered as indicated on the packing invoice was, 1 Deluxe Starter Kit, 1 78mm battery, 1 25 pack of cartomizers, and 1 USB passthrough. Unfortunately when I opened the FedEx box I found that I had received a Mini PCC Starter Kit and not the Deluxe Starter Kit that I had ordered. The USB passthrough is a bit of a disappointment too. It's extremely difficult to use and I think it might have a malfunctioning pneumatic switch because it draws very inconsistently, only heating the cartomizer half of the time. And the 30 cartomizers I received are a grab bag of ohms ratings. I love the 1 78mm battery that I received. It is a joy to use, no primer puff, great draw, and the smooth rubbery finish feels great. The Mini PCC looks cool, but feels a little flimsy, not sure it could survive a drop off of a bar or being banged around in a backpack or purse. The sliding action also definitely doesn't have the same sturdy feel that a cell phone slide out keyboard does. But it sure does looks cool and the fact that it uses a standard BST-33 cell phone battery that is readily available lots of places for anywhere between $10 to $15 is a real plus.

As far as the mistake of shipping me a Mini PCC Kit instead of a Deluxe Starter Kit and the USB passthrough not performing well, I'll just contact customer support tomorrow and get things sorted out. I've already talked once with Ashley and she was super friendly and very helpful. Just hate the hassle of having to pack it all back up, make the trip to the post office, and mail it off only to have to wait again for the rest of my kit. But from what I can tell from the 1 78mm battery that I did receive it should be worth it. Now about those cartomizers, see my meter readings below.

Carto Pack #1
2.2
2.6
2.3
2.3
2.4

Carto Pack #2
2.3
2.6
3.5
2.6
2.6

Carto Pack #3
3.7
2.4
3.0
2.2
2.6

Carto Pack #4
4.3
2.6
2.6
2.4
2.6

Carto Pack #5
3.1
3.5
3.8
3.1
3.3

Carto Pack #6
3.5
2.7
3.0
3.4
3.2

Glad I metered them all. It gave me a chance to sort them into LR, 3.0, and HV. Looks like I'm set for all sorts of vaping experimentation now. And I hate to say it, but as a customer I do have to say that it is definitely not what I thought I was purchasing. Looks like QC in the carto assembly line is a little loose.

 

[Mmc]

There is a huge difference in the maxx fusion combo of battery and cartimizer vs the v2 and v4l that I have tried. I am very new to the ecig technology. I was hoping to stick with pre filled carts, but I am finding that that may not be possible and I may have to buy some juice. Any way, I like the new maxx fusion and the vapor, just not the flavor.

 

[br5495]

You might have overheated the coil and "burnt" it out. When I was driving them to the point of deliberate burning that was the exact thing I got at the point just before the coil stopped functioning, which was when I opened them to check. About a third of them hadn't burnt at all that I could see, but obviously something had "burnt" out.

I was casually using it at 3.2 volts at the time, which is a lower voltage than it was designed for. This cartridge at that voltage usually heats the juice fast enough so that I have no need to take a long draw. It's very much like a C-E2 in this aspect, and out of habit my draws are usually less than 3 seconds.

When the first sign of a dry taste occurred, the hint was slight and I made a mental note to pay attention on the next draw as I laid it down to continue typing on the keyboard. Therefore, the next draw was not immediate. Unlike cigarettes, I direct inhale with these things and about two seconds into it I got a blast of hot air in my lungs as well as in my mouth. I don't believe the draw was long enough to be what I consider overheated.

Not knowing what the situation was, I filled it with enough juice to flood the atty. I blew out the excess from the threaded end and a drop or two came out the other end along with a couple small black flakes in it. Nothing unusual there. I had already used it long enough to create a good bit of crud on the coil. I was glad to be rid of it.

I was surprised when I got a burned taste afterward. I continued to use it for a while in hopes that the taste would be flushed out. Unfortunately, that did not happen.

 

[mwa102464]

I'm seeing mass production with many differences here, if QC ia as high as stated, this would not be happening, I'm glad I have waited on this. 2.1-4.3 is unacceptable a + or - of .2 would be more in line of acceptable to me on an order of cartos

 

[ManicMaurice]

There is a huge difference in the maxx fusion combo of battery and cartimizer vs the v2 and v4l that I have tried. I am very new to the ecig technology. I was hoping to stick with pre filled carts, but I am finding that that may not be possible and I may have to buy some juice. Any way, I like the new maxx fusion and the vapor, just not the flavor.

I agree the Bloog MaxxFusion batteries really are my current favorites too and the cartomizers when you find one that matches up with the 3.7v battery are a joy to vape on. As far as juices go, taste is very subjective. I tend to stick to VG and the only "tobacco" flavor that I really enjoy is the Camel type. I tend choose expresso, spearmint, cinnamon, clove, orange, and pineapple, but like I said it's all subjective. Check out ECF's Forum Supplier List. You'll find dozens of juice vendors in there. I have my preferences, but I hear good things about them all.

 

[Scottbee]

<snip>

Carto Pack #6
3.5
2.7
3.0
3.4
3.2

Glad I metered them all. It gave me a chance to sort them into LR, 3.0, and HV. Looks like I'm set for all sorts of vaping experimentation now. And I hate to say it, but as a customer I do have to say that it is definitely not what I thought I was purchasing. Looks like QC in the carto assembly line is a little loose.

Egads....

I ordered a 5-pack just to see if I or my wife would like the product. If the QC and results on my 5 pack mirror yours... I'll know nothing. That's a shame.

Oh.. and Leaford.... either your translator needs to find a different job or your engineer is on crack.

DMM's (precision or not) can't directly measure resistance. They either put a fixed voltage across the load and measure the current.. or they squirt a current through the load and measure the voltage. Then they do the math in order to represent the load in Ohms.

 

[ManicMaurice]

I'm seeing mass production with many differences here, if QC ia as high as stated, this would not be happening, I'm glad I have waited on this. 2.1-4.3 is unacceptable a + or - of .2 would be more in line of acceptable to me on an order of cartos

I agree, +/- 0.2 is totally acceptable. All of the Boge attys and cartos that I use are typically within that range. But I'm also confident that Leaford is working on it and will eventually have sorted out. It's not easy working with a new design and a fledgling manufacturer all at the same time. Kudos to Leaford for taking on such a difficult task.

 

[Quick1]

Clear enough, now I need to find out from him the discharge rates for our 65mms. But I'm still wondering about some details. What exactly is the relationship between the mAh and the discharge rates? Will a cell with fewer mAh have lower discharge rates than one with more? And are there any other factors that determine the discharge rates? Are there variables that we can change, or are they fixed characteristics for the 3.7v Li-ion cells we use? The less I need to ask him to explain via translator the better.

mAh (milli Amp Hours) is a conventional notation for how much the battery holds/capacity. If you were to discharge the battery with that current it would take 1 hour to go from fully charge to fully discharged.
This same number is also called "C". charge/discharge rates are often listed in C. For example max discharge rate = 2C. If this was for our 2600mAh battery above then the maxdischarge rate would be 5.2Amps.

There is no strict correlation between capacity and discharge rate or max discharge rate. In general you would expect a larger capacity battery to have a higher max discharge rate but it's dependent on the battery chemistry and also how its designed and manufactured. Generally speaking, it's common for Li-Ion batteries to be able to handle discharge rates of 1.5 or 2C. "High discharge rate" batteries designed to do so can handle discharge rates of 6C or 10C or higher.

Tenergy makes a 750mAh LifePo4 battery for which they list a max discharge rate of < 550mA (0.55A)
AW makes a 750mAh LifePo4 battery for which they list a max discharge rate of 5Amps

 

[ManicMaurice]

Egads....

I ordered a 5-pack just to see if I or my wife would like the product. If the QC and results on my 5 pack mirror yours... I'll know nothing. That's a shame.

Yeah, it's a real shame. I suggested Bloog to a few of my friends and coworkers who I'm trying to help break the analog habit, in the hopes that they would get a more consistent experience by going with Bloogs. Unfortunatly, it's looking doubtful.

I am however thrilled with the battery performance, great vaping experience. So my current contingency plan is to fill-up a bunch of Boge 3.0 ohm cartos, trade them for their Bloog cartos, and keep them using the Bloog batteries until Leaford gets things sorted out.

 

[ManicMaurice]

Ok, so I just freshly charged my new Bloog 78mm 3.7v battery filled up a 2.4 ohm Bloog cartomizer with 35 drops of VG 4mg and vaped it dry - no burning taste, no smoke, just stopped producing vapor. Then, just because I'm a glutton for punishment, I filled the same 2.4 ohm Bloog cartomizer again with another 35 drops of VG 4mg and vaped it dry a second time. Same results, no burning taste, no smoke, just stopped producing vapor. I'm taking random drags on it as I type this message and it hasn't burnt yet. Color me impressed, looks like you're onto something here Leaford.

Third times a charm, or am I pushing my luck?

AKA, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop?

 

[mwa102464]

I agree, +/- 0.2 is totally acceptable. All of the Boge attys and cartos that I use are typically within that range. But I'm also confident that Leaford is working on it and will eventually have sorted out. It's not easy working with a new design and a fledgling manufacturer all at the same time. Kudos to Leaford for taking on such a difficult task.

This is why I usually always wait anymore before buying any new ecig products, even if it turns out to be awesome it may take them some time to get all the kinks out, maybe February is good for Fusion, it's the F's,,,, I'll be checking back in then.!

 

[br5495]

I found the reason for the burned Bloog after giving it a second look. I washed and dried the filler and found a small burned spot on the edge of the inner wrap. Somehow it came in contact with the coil and actually burned, leaving a small brown edge around it. This was enough to ruin the taste of the cartridge.

When I rebuilt the first one, I remember thinking that special care would be necessary to keep the edge of this piece from getting in the slit in the air tube. Therefore, I began the wrap with the edge half way between the two slits. So it appears that better quality control is necessary for this to be a genuine burn proof cartomizer.

 

[ManicMaurice]

The world may never know. I can't handle 3 dry vapes in one night. I know, I know, what a slacker.

Night everyone ...

 

[Lastone]

I was casually using it at 3.2 volts at the time, which is a lower voltage than it was designed for. This cartridge at that voltage usually heats the juice fast enough so that I have no need to take a long draw. It's very much like a C-E2 in this aspect, and out of habit my draws are usually less than 3 seconds.

When the first sign of a dry taste occurred, the hint was slight and I made a mental note to pay attention on the next draw as I laid it down to continue typing on the keyboard. Therefore, the next draw was not immediate. Unlike cigarettes, I direct inhale with these things and about two seconds into it I got a blast of hot air in my lungs as well as in my mouth. I don't believe the draw was long enough to be what I consider overheated.

Not knowing what the situation was, I filled it with enough juice to flood the atty. I blew out the excess from the threaded end and a drop or two came out the other end along with a couple small black flakes in it. Nothing unusual there. I had already used it long enough to create a good bit of crud on the coil. I was glad to be rid of it.

I was surprised when I got a burned taste afterward. I continued to use it for a while in hopes that the taste would be flushed out. Unfortunately, that did not happen.

I had started another thread about a burnt taste. I opened 4 different flavors and was vaping them pretty equally rotating them, basically trying flavors (I was enjoying very much performance and flavors I might add). After about 30-60 puffs from each cartomizer i added some higher mg unflavored to up the nic in all four. I overfilled a little by mistake but I was careful and noticed it and did the typical blow through and clear air way and clean conection side of cartomizer. When I started vaping again 2 or 3 out of four produced a burnt flavor that did not go away. I opened one cartomizer that produced the strongest burnt flavor. I did not see any material with any sort of burn signs at all. Since then I have been working on and washing and reusing 10-15 prefilled and blanks. I have been careful to not over fill or not to leave a pool of juice on the atomizer end. Never got the burnt taste again.

 

[Lastone]

I agree, +/- 0.2 is totally acceptable. All of the Boge attys and cartos that I use are typically within that range. But I'm also confident that Leaford is working on it and will eventually have sorted out. It's not easy working with a new design and a fledgling manufacturer all at the same time. Kudos to Leaford for taking on such a difficult task.

Honestly, I can't go back to the LR cartomizer. I like the MF carto better even with the inconsistencies mentioned. I would not have noticed anything if it was not mentioned here and I have gone through about 20-25 cartomizers. I did notice that some cartoz made a louder or a different sound during the drag. I noticed some differences in flavor and TH as well but i was not sure if it was juice related, battery charge related, prefilled with having been in the carto for a long period of time vs a filled blank related. I am used the range of inconsistency in these aspects from the LR cartos so I did not become suspicious or think twice about it. I am disappointed with the findings but i still enjoy it more. Hopefully Leaford will sort things out soon. Thank you to everybody for the great contributions.

 

[jayvap33]

The flavors are one aspect I held off on making much in the way of alterations to. I knew generally what I was going for on some of the typically popular flavors, but didn't want to spend too much time customizing them until I had more feedback on what the customers want. Menthol in particular is a tough balance between too strong and too weak, and just comes down to a matter of preference. I still haven't had enough feedback to decide which end of the balance to favor, if either. So thanks, your opinion here helps a lot.



Other than getting better cartomizers?

If by "more work" you mean you have to suck harder, I just today drilled the holes bigger in 3 of my KR batteries. Some holes were too small and the air flow was poor. This works great but be careful and just try 1 hole at a time so you don't get too much air flow; the process is irreversible.

 

[Scottbee]

OK.. got my "5".

Measured the resistance right out of the bubble pack... a "reasonable" grouping ranging from 2.4 to 2.9 Ohms. Yes, I'd like to see that a bit tighter... but it's not horrible.

Filled the first one up with my "all day vape".. for giggles I chose the 2.4 Ohm unit. Put it on an eGo with an adapter.

Initial impression: Good vapor. The draw is "good".. maybe just a little "tight", but generally "OK". The flavor is a bit washed out, like one might expect from a carto that is running a bit hot and a bit dry. Just the slightest "tinge" of the "burnt" taste.. which is more pronounced with the eGo cone on.

I will continue to vape on this one, and give the others to the Wife Unit for her "acid test".